Board Meetings | The Gym to Crag Performance Gap

In this episode, Kris and Nate sit down to talk about the ways the gym doesn’t prepare you for climbing outside, and provide some tips on how you can address this gap.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

The Power Company Podcast is supported by our patrons. They keep this thing sponsor-free, and in return, they get two bonus episodes every single month. For as little as $3, you can, too, at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast or click the link right there in your pocket supercomputer. Thanks.

Kris Hampton  00:57

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton.

Nate Drolet  01:00

And this is Nate Drolet.

Kris Hampton  01:01

And together we form Doris and Donald Fisher.

Nate Drolet  01:07

Why am I never ready for these? I just did two Patreon episodes in a row. And even one of them, I was like, "Wait, is he going to do it this time?"

Kris Hampton  01:18

Doris and Donald Fisher.

Nate Drolet  01:20

Fisher. Fisher gap. Is that a thing? No.

Kris Hampton  01:23

You're on the right track here.

Nate Drolet  01:26

Oh, I don't know.

Kris Hampton  01:29

Doris and Donald Fisher, in 1969 in San Francisco, founded The Gap. 

Nate Drolet  01:38

Ohhhhh okay. 

Kris Hampton  01:42

You were on the right track. Because today we're here to talk about the things that the gym doesn't prepare you for when you go outdoors, the gap, as it were. And I guess this is kind of a gym-to-crag performance edition. These aren't things you're going to learn in your gym-to-crag classes. But they're also things that you're not going to learn by just climbing in the gym. Some of them you could potentially learn if you were really intentional about it in the gym, but the gym doesn't necessarily set you up very well for these things. And I don't know that we'll go through a lot of strategies in this episode on how to learn these things. Some of these things could probably become their own whole episodes. But these are things you should be on the lookout for if you're new to going outside. If you've been going outside for a while, and people think you're a dick, maybe these are some of the things you need to be paying attention to. 

Nate Drolet  02:50

That's not on my list. I don't... Clearly, separate lists. Um, yeah.

Kris Hampton  02:56

And I think these are just things to keep in mind, to be really intentional about when you go outside.

Nate Drolet  03:02

Yeah. Or if you feel like you do go outside quite a bit - and I've got clients who fit in this - and you just don't know why your performance isn't carrying over the way it should. 

Kris Hampton  03:15

Yeah, true. And I think this episode, we're just gonna go like, list fashion here: you go, I go. We'll talk a little bit about it. And we'll, we'll keep this thing moving. Because this started as a list of like four or five and pretty quickly grew to a list of nearly 20.

Nate Drolet  03:35

Yeah, I think our title for this that we had in our little list app was a "Top 5 Ways".

Kris Hampton  03:42

Yeah, it's no longer the top 5. It's all the ways. Why don't you go first?

Nate Drolet  03:48

Alright. First one: painful holds. 

Kris Hampton  03:51

Yeah, good one.

Nate Drolet  03:52

Climbing outside hurts. Like, you know, I often describe climbing at Smith Rock as crimping on puppy teeth and stepping on Tic-Tac's. It hurts for both, like hurts your feet, hurts your hands. And indoor holds are so nice. They're so comfy. Ian, over at Kilter? Just the smoothest comfiest holds. There are a lot of great shapers, but you know, I always just dote on him because he creates amazing shapes that are like, fun to grab and enjoyable. Yeah, like even great classic rock climbs hurt, like bleeding, when you climb outside. Like, that just happens. Like that's not, it's not some like strange phenomenon. But like, splitting your finger inside? That's weird.

Kris Hampton  04:38

Yeah, totally. I think you know, that also extends to like tweaky holds that, you know, maybe you need to be a little more prepared for you. For instance, I live here in Lander, Wyoming. Wild Iris has claimed many a person's tendon. 

Nate Drolet  04:56

Oh, yes. 

Kris Hampton  04:56

And pro-climbers, you know. I watched Matty Hong blow a tendon on a 12b, you know? It, it's not uncommon here to get injured and part of it's because we don't get that much preparation in the gym anymore for tiny little crimps, sharp nasty uncomfortable holds, and things that are a little bit tweaky.

Nate Drolet  05:19

Yeah, and yeah, absolutely. Also a lot of, there's a lot of steep climbing, that's what a lot of us tend towards because it's fun, especially in the gym and if you like boards, which we love. But the steeper the climb, kind of the bigger the holds naturally have to be, versus if you're climbing on, you know, like a dead vert or 10 degrees overhang, you can grab some nasty little weird holds, right? But people don't, you don't like that in the gym. Like you'll do that more outside, a lot of times you're just forced into it. So yeah, painful holds, tweaky holds.

Kris Hampton  05:54

Alright, next for me is actual top outs.

Nate Drolet  05:58

Ooo. Love it. 

Kris Hampton  05:59

You know, some gyms have top out boulders that generally have handlebar jugs, you can grab.

Nate Drolet  06:05

Love those, too. 

Kris Hampton  06:05

It's not some scary heel-above-your-head mantle on frictiony Horse Pens slopers, where if you fall off, you're probably going head first. It's not that style of top out. It's, you just don't get prepared for that stuff in the gym.

Nate Drolet  06:23

Yeah, yeah. And I will say one of my favorite tips for mantles - and this is also, so anytime we would do workshops, and especially when we would work with like a youth team, like youth competitive teams, this is great for slabs and mantles alike: keep breathing, stay calm, stay conscious, also. Like, if you can just keep breathing and stay calm on a mantle, your success rate will octuple. 

Kris Hampton  06:51

Yeah, totally. 

Nate Drolet  06:52

Because so often people get to the top out of a boulder, and in their mind, they're like, "I'm done." But all because they're, geographically they're very close. Yeah, but when things start, you know, kind of going poorly, like when it's not immediately just a handlebar jug they grab and they roll over, they start freaking out. They breathe faster, they start looking around really quickly, and it's ironic because if they were, you know, on a jug in the middle of a 45 degree wall, they would probably be more calm, they would look around ,be like, "Oh, hey, where's the next hold?" You can do the same thing, in fact, if you're mantling, half your body's probably already on top of the boulder; just lay down. Literally, relax your upper body, you can just get friction, sometimes you can even just lift your fingers up and you can relax. Take your time, take a few breaths, and just slowly work through it. Like mantling is physically not that challenging compared to most climbing, but you just have to be mentally prepared for it. Stay calm, keep breathing, that'll get you through a bunch of 'em. 

Kris Hampton  07:51

Yeah. And that's not to say there aren't really hard mantles, because there absolutely are really hard mantles. 

Nate Drolet  07:58

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  07:59

That are quite scary, quite hard to figure out, you know, but, but you're right. If you take the time, don't make the immediate decision that you can't do it and jump off, and, you know, you're, you're gonna get there half the time. 

Nate Drolet  08:13

Yeah. Alright. My next one is time constraints. You know, when you're in the gym, like, you don't have to worry about the season ending when you want to send your climb, like, yeah, things are gonna get reset but at the same time, like, you know, you're probably chasing the new sets anyways, so who even cares about the thing that was set six weeks ago, right? You're not worried about the day ending. So you're not thinking like, "Okay, I need to get up super early, get to the crag fast because, you know, this sun's going to hit my project."  Ironically, actually, in Houston, I was climbing in the gym with beautiful skylights, and there were some cruxes on certain walls, but super rare. And even then it's like still climate-controlled so it wasn't that big of a deal. It was more just something to laugh about. But your climb's gonna go into the sun. Your climb might be, you know, there are all sorts of things that you have to deal with for time constraints. So that's something you don't have to do as much indoors and preparing for that can make a huge difference.

Kris Hampton  09:13

Yeah, and I think even indoors, it's like, you know, the schedule of the setting. So, you know, the, the boulder might disappear, the route might disappear in three weeks, but you know that's happening. Outdoors, you can very often feel pressured because it could snow tomorrow. And then it's out - then you can't get up the road anymore to even get to your project. So that, that pressure of time definitely does not exist in the same way in the gym. Next for me: running it out. So just like long stretches between bolts. Oftentimes, the easier sections of sport climbs will have much longer sections where you're climbing without clipping, and in the gym, the bolts are all perfectly spaced. It's, you know, in a lot of gyms it's like, do three moves, clip a bolt, three moves, clip a bolt. And you never get to climb 25 moves in a row without clipping, you know. That's relatively common when you're climbing outside, to do a lot of moves, to be 10, 12, 15 feet above a bolt. Not super common in the gym and, and it's something you, a lot of people will have to take their time leaning into a little bit at a time to get better at.

Nate Drolet  10:37

Yeah, absolutely. That's, that is a big one. That, especially depending on the areas that you go to, like, you may be wandering far from the bolt. Like when I went to Ceuse, I was very surprised how much laterally you go away from bolts. Like, I climbed on a super famous route, "Face de Rat", 8a+ route there - 13c for the Americans - and there's one section that's, it's maybe 5.10 but, man, you go wandering like, I don't know, 18 feet out away from the bolt line. Like, big jugs but, man, you're, you're out there. Like it's, it's, it's thrilling.

Kris Hampton  11:15

Yep. I think one good tactic you can use in the gym if this is something, you know, you need to lean into a little bit, is just delay your clipping a little. And, and I'm not saying skip bolts, you know, a lot of gyms frown upon that. But you can still clip a bolt when it's below your waist. You can, you can hang out at the clipping hold and shake and breathe a little bit before you clip. That's going to get you a little better at not, not feeling like you have to clip right away, getting more comfortable being relaxed above bolts.

Nate Drolet  11:51

Absolutely. My next one is using beta videos. So this is something that does exist indoors to some degree.

Kris Hampton  12:00

Yeah, and more and more. Like Kaya is doing a fair amount of this kind of thing.

Nate Drolet  12:05

Yeah, and it, so it can exist, but it's just not as common. You know, like certain boards, like Tension and Moon both have a button you can press to watch videos, but it's always either with some like 6'4" bro, or it's some woman who's like 4'11" and way stronger than me. And I don't, I don't need to see either of those. One's not helpful and one just really hurts. So yeah, like, but going outside, you can find, you know, a million videos for anything. People of all sizes and all different types of beta, and you have to pay attention. Like, you can learn a lot from videos like: What's the landing like? How many pads do they bring? Do they have a spotter? No, like, because, like there are plenty of times where things are padded where you may not need a spotter. Is that spotter really close? Do three people in a row have a spotter in the same spot? Maybe there's a death pit you don't see, and you're like, "This looks exciting." And then like you go out, you're like, "Oh, this is exciting." Like, there are all these different things you can learn from video other than just simply beta. And learning how to take that in is super important so that when you go out there, you're as prepared as possible.

Kris Hampton  13:20

Yep, totally. I'll play off of that for my next one, which is uneven landings and fall-path planning. You know, and this includes for spotters and belayers. You know, in the gym, you're belaying on perfectly flat ground where there's not people's stuff, ideally, piled all over and... 

Nate Drolet  13:42

Hopefully not. 

Kris Hampton  13:42

...there's not a drop off. There's not a boulder behind you, you know, there's not tree roots sticking up. You're also, you never have to shuffle pads, you never have to figure out how to flatten out a landing. I'm not saying, you know, dig the dirt away to flatten out a landing, I'm just saying how to stack pads to make it flatter. There's a lot that goes into that and and you learn none of that in the gym.

Nate Drolet  14:09

Yeah, back when I was a Hueco Tanks guide that was, I mean, I like to think it's how I earned my tips. But basically people would just throw their pads out and I mean, like gaps, and corners, and pads are overlapping. And I had to take out a group of 10 people, 10 huge Organic pads drop, hit the ground, and I'm like, "Y'all are just gonna break ankles. I don't know how you can have... like, the foam to bad-landing zone ratio here is incredible. Really, I'm impressed. But just go, go sit, go look at, go look at the wall and I'm going to fix this for you. Because this is awful." So I would like immediately like disassemble whatever pad shenanigans they laid out and be like, "Okay, this is how we're going to do it."

Kris Hampton  14:57

And you know part of what I said may have changed a little in recent years, especially in commercial gyms with like big giant volumes and holds, that planning your fall path on a sport climb might be a little more harrowing in the gym now than it used to be. That's a real thing. But you know, they're still not like, especially when you're climbing in the lower grades, they're often going to be big ledges and things like that, that you have to consider when you're climbing. And that doesn't really happen quite as much in the commercial gyms. Though, you know, making sure you don't hit that Boss on your way down, it could definitely be a problem.

Nate Drolet  15:39

Yeah. Yeah, like, man, especially with like trad climbing. 5.6? Way scarier than 5.11. 

Kris Hampton  15:45

Totally.

Nate Drolet  15:46

5.6, you're hitting things on the way down. It's just a staircase.

Kris Hampton  15:49

Yeah, you're just bouncing off of things as you fall. 

Nate Drolet  15:51

Yeah. So the next one is the dynamics of moving around a crag, and trying to fit everyone's schedule in. So this, I think, is a huge one. And it's one that, man, I see experienced climbers still make mistakes with all the time.

Kris Hampton  16:08

Totally.

Nate Drolet  16:09

You know, like, bouldering is a great example. If you're bouldering in the gym, like, you know, it's like, "Hey, we're gonna go to this wall for a little bit," "Okay," and there's 20 climbs on, you know, a 15 foot wide spray. Perfect. Everyone gets to climb. It's like, "Oh, hey, let's go over there," everyone moves to that one. You go outside, and it's like, "Oh, there's this one boulder. And we're gonna be here for two hours, and then we're gonna go to that one boulder." And a lot of people might feel self-conscious. And they're like, "I don't want everyone to sit here and wait, because like, it's only my V5 here, and everyone else climbs harder. And they've done this already," or, or vice versa. You know, I've had clients who were like, they want to break into V10 but everyone they climb with, you know, was climbing in that like maybe V4 to V7 range, and they don't want them to have to sit at their project. But if you have this discussion early on, you're like, "Hey, let's, let's split this up. Like, you know, there's five of us." Also, maybe keep groups reasonable. If you go out with a group of 15 people, no one's going to be happy for the most part, especially the people who have to climb around you. But yeah, like, plan it early, make sure that you just say, "Hey, like, Oh, you want to get on that? We're gonna go there in the morning, or we'll go there for an hour. We'll switch off, you can eat, rest for a while, we'll go to my project for an hour." Like keep switching back and forth. Make plans.

Kris Hampton  17:29

Yeah, totally. I think it's such a valuable thing. And it's also, people mess it up on both ends. Like when they go outside, there are people who will certainly play the role of like the guide, the person who puts up the top ropes, you know, and they end up ruining their entire day because they've never had to figure out how to run logistics for a group of people of differing ability levels.

Nate Drolet  17:58

Yeah, exactly, totally. And they're, they feel responsible. And, you know, man, I, once again, have had clients who are like, "Oh, you know, I was putting up top ropes and cleaning things for people. And I did six pitches of 5.10 before I got to get on like my 12, 5.12 project," you know. It's like, well, six pitches of 5.10 is still tiring, like, especially when you're trying to do something at your limit only two grades above. 

Kris Hampton  18:22

Yep. And I'll play off of that with a little more rare situation, but: when you don't have other options. The gym doesn't prepare you for the situation where this is the thing, this is the only thing here. I came all the way up here for this thing. It's either all I have left at this crag, it's the only boulder here, you know, I'm gonna have to hike back to my car with all my stuff and drive to another area if I want to climb on something else. It doesn't prepare you for that reality. And you know, all the challenges that come along with trying just one sequence for an entire day of climbing. In the gym, if you get tired of it, if you get frustrated with it, whatever it is, you can just move to the next boulder 10 feet away that's the exact same grade, you can go pick out holds that you want to pull on more, whatever it is. It doesn't prepare you for that reality.

Nate Drolet  19:25

Yeah, that's always my favorite. You know, I've got like the Seven Go Rule which I talk about a lot, which is when you find a move that feels stopper, rather than passing judgment immediately, try it seven times before you make any decisions. You know, did you get closer? Cool, maybe keep trying it or come back in the future. If you made zero progress - not even like you slapped your hand an inch closer to the hold - after seven go's, you know maybe it's too hard for you right now and that's okay. Move on to something else. I say this and inevitably someone will always be like, "Oof, seven go's? I mean like I'm gonna get hurt if I try something seven go's. Like, I never try anything for seven go's!" And it's funny because then I think about like, yeah, like think about projecting outside and like, man, I'm going to spend eight hours under this boulder. Do maybe three moves. I might bring a lawn chair like, essentially like, I got my picnic basket. Like I am, I'm camping here at this boulder.

Kris Hampton  20:18

Was it Dave Graham's post I just read where he said he would try this boulder sometimes 200 times in a session?

Nate Drolet  20:29

He did just do "La Rustica", I haven't read it. I saw it. I haven't read it. But...

Kris Hampton  20:34

Somebody's post I just read was like, you know, I tried it for six days. Usually around 200 times a session.

Nate Drolet  20:43

Oh my God. Man, oof.

Kris Hampton  20:47

The gym does not prepare you for that reality. 

Nate Drolet  20:49

How many Seven Go's were there in that? Dave Graham's over here living that 200 Go Rule. Yeah, amazing. But I agree, it doesn't prepare you for that because you try a move twice and you're like, "Ehhhh, I don't know, I'll try the thing right next to this." 

Kris Hampton  21:06

Right. 

Nate Drolet  21:07

So easy to do. 

Kris Hampton  21:08

No options. 

Nate Drolet  21:09

Yeah. To fit right along with that is not having your perfect warm up scenario. Like, warming up in the gym is so nice.

Kris Hampton  21:19

I love it. I love having my circuit that I can do every time and that I know really well and makes me feel like a fucking superhero.

Nate Drolet  21:26

It's great and it's warm and it's cozy. And like, oh, you know what, my shoulders are a little tight. I'm gonna go do some kettlebell, some pullovers. I'll do some arm bars. You know, I'm gonna go get on the vert wall and climb some vertical jugs, maybe do some twisting, and then slightly more overhanging. I'll go through my circuit warmup. Hop on the hangboard then, really recruit the fingers. Now I'm ready.

Kris Hampton  21:48

Do two heavy deadlifts just to make sure my, my glutes are recruiting properly.

Nate Drolet  21:54

Exactly. We're getting this all. But you go outside, and you're like "Uhhhh." Perfect example: I got a buddy who was just out in Salt Lake the other day and went out climbing and went to a boulder that has a V9 and a V11 on it. And he went out and he climbed those two and I was like, "Yeah, was there any good warm up?" He was like, "Well, you know, the top of the 11's like, like V4. So I did that a few times. And then I did the 9. And then I did the 11." Yeah, I was like, yep, that sounds right. That's, uh, you know, maybe we do some pull ups in there. Some jumping jacks. Like, I walked from the parking lot to the boulder, like that warmed me up. But warming up outside is very in- un-ideal a lot of the times. And it often catches me off guard whenever I'm with someone who doesn't climb outside much. We'll be going out, and they're like, "Oh, well, where's the warm up?" And I'm like, "Oh, it's this really terrible thing." Or it's like, "It's the bottom of the 13d. You're going to do the first four bolts, repeat it a couple times." And they're like, "But it's 13d." I'm like, "Ahh, it's, eh. It's fine. It's whatever."

Kris Hampton  23:03

Yeah, exactly. Like when I was doing, trying "Flight of the Antelope", which I made a video about on our YouTube, it's a V10 that sits by itself. There's not much to warm up on near it. The top of it is an okay warm up, but it's also absolutely terrifying and has one of the scariest moves I've ever done up high. So not a thing I wanted to warm up on. 

Nate Drolet  23:31

Definitely.

Kris Hampton  23:34

Just wasn't an easy situation. And in the gym, I would have climbed my perfect circuit and gotten on it and been ready to go and I probably would have sent it days and days earlier because of that, you know? 

Nate Drolet  23:47

Yeah, yeah. So something you gotta kind of learn to work with as best as you can.

Kris Hampton  23:52

Yep, I will, I will play off of that as well with: the logistics to planning a day out. So not just even the day out, but the making sure all the things you need to do at work and the things you need to do at home and talking to your significant other, your partner and, you know, making sure all those plans are in place. And you don't have to do any of that to go to the gym for 45 minutes. 

Nate Drolet  24:20

Yeah, you gotta pack food. You can't stop at Chipotle on the way. 

Kris Hampton  24:24

Right, exactly. There's so much to it that's different than going to the gym. Do you eat Chipotle before you go to the gym?

Nate Drolet  24:30

Well, if I go before, I don't add meat because meat makes your hands sweat, as we've learned from Alex Megos, so I do a vegetarian burrito before. You know, I should start actually getting protein on the side. I should get the vegetarian burrito, get the new Pollo Asado - not sponsored by Chipotle, but I would be! Call me! - get that on the side like a little bowl or something and then eat half, stuff the rest in the other half once I'm done. Hit that anabolic window.

Kris Hampton  25:02

I like this. But what we don't know is if your hands sweat just because you bought meat? Or do they only sweat when you eat meat?

Nate Drolet  25:12

Maybe it's like, you know, guilty sweats of animal product? 

Kris Hampton  25:16

Maybe. That's certainly possible.

Nate Drolet  25:19

Science. We need to work, we need to run some research on this.

Kris Hampton  25:22

We need to figure this out.

Nate Drolet  25:25

Yeah, so the logistics of going out, and it sounds silly, but I mean, it is a thing. Like, you have, like a gym bag or something that can like just live in your car, versus like, you're going outside, you need to have your pads, you need to have all these different things.

Kris Hampton  25:40

Yeah. And if you have a, if you have a career that means you're, either you need to be on call or people need to be able to reach you, you have a family, you have lots of other responsibilities. It can be a pretty big task to get an entire day away where you don't need to be able to be reached. And in most climbing areas, that's the case.

Nate Drolet  26:05

Yeah. In Hueco, our buddy Kwang he had, I remember, one day I was going out and we're out on East Mountain and I look over and he's got his laptop out. He was working remote. He was like, "I get good service here." We're at the "Try Harder" boulder, and he's like sitting on top of the boulder working. He's like, "I just gotta get a few hours in here. And then I'll try my project in the afternoon." But yeah, so he found a spot on East Mountain where he got good enough service that he could hotspot into work remote.

Kris Hampton  26:34

That's hilarious. We need that in guidebooks from now on. That's the new, that's the new thing in guide books: little antenna icons, so you know where you get hotspots.

Nate Drolet  26:45

Amazing. So my next one is: it's much harder to avoid crowds. Like you're in the gym, you can kind of, you can kind of move around, go to a different wall, especially you just go to a wall that wasn't set in the last 10 days - empty. Or you just go where the climbing teams aren't.

Kris Hampton  27:09

But in a lot of the gyms, a lot of the mega gyms now are so vast, enormous, that there could be 250 people in the gym and there are still five or six corners where there's nobody.

Nate Drolet  27:24

And with the amount of people who work remotely now, a lot more people are going in early so they can avoid crowds. So you can do that. And if you go outside, especially if you're a weekend warrior, and if you want to climb on good rock climbs? Yeah, man, people like good rock climbs. It's weird, but they get busy.

Kris Hampton  27:41

Yeah. So that's something you have to get used to and, you know, learning how to communicate with people as you're doing that. You know, that's something I was fortunate, I started sport climbing at the Red so you just quickly, like... I didn't know you could go to a crag that didn't have 80 people at it. Like, you just wait in line. Like that's what you do. Or you like, you know, you chop it up, you figure out what's the lineup, "Hey, oh, is this a redpoint go? Are you working, is this a working burn?" And these are just comfortable casual conversations. But then I've gone to more remote crags and I'll walk up to people like, "Hey, how's it going? You know, what's, what's the lineup like? Like how long do you think you're going to be on it?" And they look at me like I've got antlers growing out of me. They're just like, there are eight other routes here that you could be getting on, why are you trying to get on this one? And I'm like, oh, I, I didn't realize this was not a normal thing.

Nate Drolet  27:41

You might get lucky, you know, you might just happen to hit the day at Drive-By when there are only, I don't know, 70 people there. But most days, in good weather, there are a lot of people lined up for the best rock climbs and a lot of the good climbing areas.

Kris Hampton  28:52

Yeah. And you know, it's a good, it's a really great skill to learn and it has its benefits. You know, you and I really first started connecting queuing up for routes in the Red. 

Nate Drolet  29:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  29:04

Has its benefits. Alright. Next for me: it doesn't prepare you - unless you're like in the Midwest or maybe even the Southeast - doesn't prepare you for adverse conditions. 

Nate Drolet  29:16

I already knew where this was going.

Kris Hampton  29:18

I've definitely climbed in some old gyms in the Midwest, that's like, just as humid and sticky and hot and gross to prepare you for summer, in the Red if you're going to climb in the Red in the summer. But otherwise, most gyms don't. They're climate controlled, you never have to worry about conditions, you know, not to mention the like frustration of trying something difficult in conditions.

Nate Drolet  29:47

Yeah, you know, and deal with rain. I actually have a photo on one of our, one of my first blog posts, I forget which one it is but, it's of a hold in TBA - the gym in Chattanooga - that didn't have, they would try and install like AC once a year, like, "We're getting it!" and then... 

Kris Hampton  30:04

It would get chalked up and die. 

Nate Drolet  30:05

Yeah, it'd run a week and then they're like, "Windows are open, they stay open!" But I have a photo of a dual-tex, like DRCC, one of those like half-moon holds. And the bottom was dual-tex and it was covered in condensation beads. And I was just, that was just it. But most places, we don't, you don't have to worry about it. And it's great. You just go in and it's nice all the time.

Kris Hampton  30:06

Yeah, totally.

Nate Drolet  30:27

My next one is: the need for core strength. Like, climbing indoors you just don't need it as much. Like, you're not doing as intricate of foot movements. Like it's, it's not a fun style to climb inside where you have to like, do ticky-tacky moves really tight. Like I can't, you know - I lived in Houston for almost two years, I could count on one hand the number of hard foot moves I had to do in that gym where I was like, "Oh, I need to lock everything down. And the hard part of this boulder is this foot move." Where I mean, every rock I might try outside, it's like, "Oh, there's a hard foot move." Like I remember living in Chattanooga, Jimmy Webb was talking about trying this project at Rocktown, which ended up becoming "The Matriarch". I think he said it took him three days to do the foot moves in isolation. And when he would be trying it, like his core tension for doing the foot moves was what was failing first, like that would end his session, because they were that hard.

Kris Hampton  31:36

Yeah, I believe it. I think it has a lot to do with, like, you know, setters are able to put the feet exactly where they want them, they're able to put the handholds at exactly the angle where they want them. But that doesn't mean that they should. Sometimes it's better to put the thing at a funky angle - don't put a foot where you want it, put the foot a little too far away. And you know, people are going to complain. Somebody's going to come in and be like, "That foothold's too far away." So the fuck what? Set them a different boulder, doesn't mean you have to change this one. You know, I really think that's a big part of it. Just we've, we've gotten trapped into putting the holds where we want them.

Nate Drolet  32:25

Yeah, and it's, you know, and it's fun, but also, it's like... and also there's just, so many gyms have enormous footholds. Like, it, man, I just laugh so hard. Like there are so many times I'd be like, "Oh, these are, I'm on a 45, I'm on these half-pad incut crimps. And I am stepping on toasters." Like what is happening? Like I could be climbing this, these in my tennis shoes. And maybe that's like, I don't know, maybe there's something to that? Like, a lot of setters will forerun in tennis shoes or very comfy shoes. Which makes sense - like, your route setter's job is hard and like people complain about it all the time. I'd be wearing comfy shoes, too. But like, it's, it's not that often that I go somewhere where I'm like, "Oh, these are like bad footholds that aren't just like horrendous smears. These are like truly bad footholds that I need to keep my feet on and apply a lot of tension for."

Kris Hampton  33:15

Totally. And that's my next one, is: bad feet. I think gyms do slopey feet really well. I think part of it is the production. Like I didn't know this until I worked with Escape to create our Inductors, and Diodes, and Resistors, how hard and expensive it is to create tiny, incut feet. It's, it's so hard to produce them. Why would you spend all this time and energy making this tiny little foothold that people will be willing to pay $4 for, versus you could make a giant sloper in the same amount of time and sell it for $95? It doesn't make any sense business-wise so nobody's going to do it. And that's why we're the only ones who do it. And Escape produces the things more as a favor for me and for the home-wall owners. Because they're certainly not making any money off of it, you know? So, for me, that's that's a big one. If you want to learn to climb on slopey feet, the gym will prepare you quite well for that. Maybe not for real friction smears. Better now, they're doing a much better job now. But the small, incut, tiny little edges you have to toe into? Nonexistent in the gym.

Nate Drolet  34:41

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'd say the last two years of living in Houston, like I got a lot better at smearing and moving off of slopey feet. But man, like, going back to climbing outside more often, like, I have, like my skills have degraded. For like, I mean for one: using small feet, and two: like engaging my core the way I used to, which, both of those I used to consider two of my greatest strengths. But it makes like, it makes sense to me why, you know, I'll talk with people who climb predominantly indoors, or they'll climb like on boards a lot. And they're like, "Yeah, I just, I don't think core strength really plays that big of a role in climbing." And it's like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, or they'll be like, "Yeah, I mean, you know, footwork - whatever." But it's like, if you... 

Kris Hampton  35:24

It's because you're climbing outside a lot. 

Nate Drolet  35:27

Yeah, if you're climbing outside a lot? Like, man, those things are enormous. And like, you can't have enough of them.

Kris Hampton  35:34

Yeah. And pro-tip: definitely buy our footholds. They will make you a better climber, assuming you use them, instead of letting your ego get in the way.

Nate Drolet  35:46

I hear they're not possible to stand on.

Kris Hampton  35:48

I've been told that.

Nate Drolet  35:52

So my next one is: detailed sequences. So, highly-intricate movement sequences. There's a style - and I stole this phrase from Matt Pincus - and it's: "order of operations". And so often, you'll have this outside where, okay, there's a sequence where you're not traveling geographically very far - maybe you're only going three feet - but there might be 12 moves, right? Like you're bumping a hand up, shifting a foot, dropping your pinky so you can set the heel, and then lowering the heel; like all these little intricate things. And each of those 12 moves? Not bad. But you must do them in perfect order. If you mess up one sequence, one part of the sequence? That's it. Your goal is done.

Kris Hampton  36:35

Right. You're just stuck there looking at it like what, what happened? What did I do wrong?

Nate Drolet  36:38

Yeah, you're like, "I forgot to move the pinky!" And I'm like, "I did the full span move. And now I can't, I can't pull the pinky off to set the heel. And I'm stuck." You just step off. Or you can try and go, but you're not going to do it. 

Kris Hampton  36:50

Yeah, I never have the problem of forgetting to drop the pinky. 

Nate Drolet  36:53

Way ahead of all of us right here. 

Kris Hampton  36:55

Yeah, I've been practicing that.

Nate Drolet  36:56

Living in the future. But order of operations climbing, like highly-detailed sequences. And it makes sense because it's like, one: it's really hard to set. Most climbing holds, like, a lot of them are made to grab one way. Even if they're big and beautiful. And sometimes there are other ways but, like, a lot of times there's one way to grab a hold and that's how you're going to do it. So you're not going to readjust, shift, do different things. And it's really hard in the gym where holds are like a little bigger, bigger like, more beefy incut. Like, it's hard to set these small intricate moves where people don't just like pull through.

Kris Hampton  37:34

Yeah, and when the feet are gigantic, it's hard to stop people from just leaping off of these giant feet, you know?

Nate Drolet  37:41

A classic example is: the World Cup just happened in Seoul, South Korea; and the finals, I think it was Men's #3, like Yoshiyuki Ogata goes out first and does the whole sequence. It's like this big dog-legging boulder that goes way out right. Super intricate footwork, all these things, like hard shoulder jump, jump move, comes back - like all these things. Second guy comes out, looks up and, and he's pretty tall. Skips, I think like, six moves. And literally just like grabs one good hold and leaps to a jug and goes to the top. And it's like, "Oh, hopefully he's just tall." Every climber after that just did the exact same thing. Because it's like, man, like, if you give strong climbers a decent foot and a decent hand, they can just launch off of it. 

Kris Hampton  38:29

Yep, totally. 

Nate Drolet  38:30

But yeah, outside, like things are just a little, there's a lot more like, kind of fucked up holds, like weird things like, oh, this is just like a dimple that you're grabbing. Like, you would never want to grab it inside because it's maybe painful, it's just weird. But it's like you have to grab this dimple and then shift or the dimple's the pinky now, and like - all these things.

Kris Hampton  38:49

Yeah, that leads me right into my next one, which is: non-holds. It doesn't teach you how to use non-holds, you know? I just, I just did a boulder - V10-ish thing that I had found, and cleaned up, and figured out the moves for - and, and I couldn't identify many of the things I ended up using as holds, as holds, until I like got to a position and was like, "How, how can I move out of this position? Oh, I need this thing? That's not a hold but weird, it works." And they're all these like complicated order of operations on non-holds where I'm flipping things and holding things a weird way that don't look like a traditional climbing hold at all. And I think if you can understand those things a little better, know how to use them, start to be able to see them, that opens up a lot of avenues for you climbing and you just can't really learn that in the gym. Maybe there's a little more of it with volume climbing now but those still rely on like corners and things to be able to use. It's still not nearly as subtle as real rock is.

Nate Drolet  38:49

It's very televised. Like, "Oh, this is kind of a non-hold, but the hold is there." And it's like covered in chalk. And like...

Kris Hampton  40:02

Right. "This hold here is a non-hold." 

Nate Drolet  40:08

Exactly. It's like this bright pink thing is here. And you're like, they put it here for a reason. Like, there's, you go outside, like, there's no reason that any of these holds are here, like, you just have to wade your way through this chaos. You know, one of my favorite examples of that is "The Rhino" in Hueco. Like I walked under it before it had ever been done and gun to my head, I wouldn't have told you there was ever a climb there. Even after it had been chalked up and done, you know, a half-dozen times, I still walked under it and I was like, "The slopers are upside down. Like, I don't know why these are chalked." And it really took like, climbing on it and moving across it to be like, "Oh, you can use these." It's, it's insane. Like, but, to have the vision for that is like really cool. But so much of that happens outside, where it's like, yeah, these little dimples and nothing's, like, make the world of a difference. 

Kris Hampton  41:07

Yeah, they can open up a door.

Nate Drolet  41:11

That is... so I'm done with mine.

Kris Hampton  41:14

That's all of yours? 

Nate Drolet  41:15

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  41:15

I've got one more. And it sort of leads right out of my non-holds. And that's: the skill and ability to search for beta that isn't apparent. You know, yes, there are tricky sequences in the gym. Yes, there are things you may not see. But the, the beta in a gym is still relatively limited. And you can see all of the holds; every one of them is pink and right in front of you. And, you know, out on a rock, you get to use whatever's there. 

Nate Drolet  41:51

There are no rules.

Kris Hampton  41:53

Yeah, searching for that beta, when it's not apparent that you need to go from this hold to this hold and you're not sure where you're supposed to go, is a skill that you just can't learn in the gym. And, you know, it gets greater and greater and greater the more moves you're doing. So sport climbs, you know, somewhere like the Red? 5.9 can feel impossible to somebody who's a 5.12 climber in the gym because there are 7,000 chalked holds and you don't know what to do, because you could grab anything. The beta is not very apparent, you know? The same, just the inverse problem of not knowing where to go is: all the holds are usable, what do I do now?

Nate Drolet  42:41

Yeah. That, I mean, that is definitely a thing. Like, you can get overwhelmed with options outside so easily.

Kris Hampton  42:47

Yeah, totally. Alright. I think it's a great list of things. You know, and no, no shade thrown at the gyms here. There are gyms that are preparing us really well. There's no question of that. They've opened up, you know - I attribute a lot of the harder climbing in the world to gyms being available. 

Nate Drolet  43:08

Yeah. And I mean, the changes now versus what things used to be like: the addition of volumes, and the way holds are, and like, the professionalism of route setters. Amazing. I mean, we really take leaps forward, year after year, and it's incredible to see. 

Kris Hampton  43:25

Yeah, so no shade at all thrown at the gyms. Thanks for what you're doing route setters, gym owners, everybody out there. But these are things that you as the climber need to be really intentional about. Some of them, you can practice and get a little better at in the gym, if you try really hard to. Some of them, you're just going to have to learn outside. Put the intention into that, be aware of it, and put the time in now. I think that's the best thing you can do. 

Nate Drolet  43:53

Yeah, and take your time. Like it - even for experienced outdoor climbers, like - it's normal. Like in Hueco, there's the common learning curve that everyone always says like, "Oh, it's like, it'll take you two weeks." Like you're gonna be out here, you're gonna climb for, it'll take two weeks of climbing where you're like feeling a little clunky. And suddenly your feet are gonna stick to the rock more, the moves are gonna feel smaller, the hands are going to feel a little bit bigger to you. Like it just takes a little adaptation. And you'll good at what you do. Like if you spend more time climbing outside, you'll get better at climbing outside.

Kris Hampton  44:24

Totally, totally. And if you're in a gym, especially if you're in Salt Lake City, and you want to get better at climbing outside and you think a coach would help you, Nate is in Salt Lake. He'll be doing some private coaching through the Momentum gyms. You can hit him up through here, you can find him on Instagram: @natedrolet That's correct. And also reach out through our website, or info@powercompanyclimbing.com We can connect you with Nate. If you'd like to get a leg up, be better than your friends - we all want that, right? Yeah, yeah. And you guys know where to find us: Power Company Climbing, on the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the YouTubes, the Pinterest - all over the damn place. Find us there. Follow us. Please give us a five-star review, five-star rating, leave us a review. I don't even know what these things are, we've been doing this podcast for so long. 

Nate Drolet  45:26

Put star emojis in the review and leave a five-star rating.

Kris Hampton  45:29

Fire emojis - I would prefer fire emojis actually. So please follow us on those social medias, tell your friends and look for us on the Twitter. Tweet about us. But you're not going to find us there, because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.

The Gym to Crag Performance Gap

Wed, 8/10 3:00PM • 47:09

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

climbing, gym, holds, moves, boulder, people, climber, crag, feet, totally, pads, big, prepare, chalked, bolt, hard, crimps, indoors, footholds, grab

SPEAKERS

Nate Drolet, Kris Hampton

Kris Hampton  00:00

The Power Company Podcast is supported by our patrons. They keep this thing sponsor-free, and in return, they get two bonus episodes every single month. For as little as $3, you can, too, at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast or click the link right there in your pocket supercomputer. Thanks.

Kris Hampton  00:57

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton.

Nate Drolet  01:00

And this is Nate Drolet.

Kris Hampton  01:01

And together we form Doris and Donald Fisher.

Nate Drolet  01:07

Why am I never ready for these? I just did two Patreon episodes in a row. And even one of them, I was like, "Wait, is he going to do it this time?"

Kris Hampton  01:18

Doris and Donald Fisher.

Nate Drolet  01:20

Fisher. Fisher gap. Is that a thing? No.

Kris Hampton  01:23

You're on the right track here.

Nate Drolet  01:26

Oh, I don't know.

Kris Hampton  01:29

Doris and Donald Fisher, in 1969 in San Francisco, founded The Gap. 

Nate Drolet  01:38

Ohhhhh okay. 

Kris Hampton  01:42

You were on the right track. Because today we're here to talk about the things that the gym doesn't prepare you for when you go outdoors, the gap, as it were. And I guess this is kind of a gym-to-crag performance edition. These aren't things you're going to learn in your gym-to-crag classes. But they're also things that you're not going to learn by just climbing in the gym. Some of them you could potentially learn if you were really intentional about it in the gym, but the gym doesn't necessarily set you up very well for these things. And I don't know that we'll go through a lot of strategies in this episode on how to learn these things. Some of these things could probably become their own whole episodes. But these are things you should be on the lookout for if you're new to going outside. If you've been going outside for a while, and people think you're a dick, maybe these are some of the things you need to be paying attention to. 

Nate Drolet  02:50

That's not on my list. I don't... Clearly, separate lists. Um, yeah.

Kris Hampton  02:56

And I think these are just things to keep in mind, to be really intentional about when you go outside.

Nate Drolet  03:02

Yeah. Or if you feel like you do go outside quite a bit - and I've got clients who fit in this - and you just don't know why your performance isn't carrying over the way it should. 

Kris Hampton  03:15

Yeah, true. And I think this episode, we're just gonna go like, list fashion here: you go, I go. We'll talk a little bit about it. And we'll, we'll keep this thing moving. Because this started as a list of like four or five and pretty quickly grew to a list of nearly 20.

Nate Drolet  03:35

Yeah, I think our title for this that we had in our little list app was a "Top 5 Ways".

Kris Hampton  03:42

Yeah, it's no longer the top 5. It's all the ways. Why don't you go first?

Nate Drolet  03:48

Alright. First one: painful holds. 

Kris Hampton  03:51

Yeah, good one.

Nate Drolet  03:52

Climbing outside hurts. Like, you know, I often describe climbing at Smith Rock as crimping on puppy teeth and stepping on Tic-Tac's. It hurts for both, like hurts your feet, hurts your hands. And indoor holds are so nice. They're so comfy. Ian, over at Kilter? Just the smoothest comfiest holds. There are a lot of great shapers, but you know, I always just dote on him because he creates amazing shapes that are like, fun to grab and enjoyable. Yeah, like even great classic rock climbs hurt, like bleeding, when you climb outside. Like, that just happens. Like that's not, it's not some like strange phenomenon. But like, splitting your finger inside? That's weird.

Kris Hampton  04:38

Yeah, totally. I think you know, that also extends to like tweaky holds that, you know, maybe you need to be a little more prepared for you. For instance, I live here in Lander, Wyoming. Wild Iris has claimed many a person's tendon. 

Nate Drolet  04:56

Oh, yes. 

Kris Hampton  04:56

And pro-climbers, you know. I watched Matty Hong blow a tendon on a 12b, you know? It, it's not uncommon here to get injured and part of it's because we don't get that much preparation in the gym anymore for tiny little crimps, sharp nasty uncomfortable holds, and things that are a little bit tweaky.

Nate Drolet  05:19

Yeah, and yeah, absolutely. Also a lot of, there's a lot of steep climbing, that's what a lot of us tend towards because it's fun, especially in the gym and if you like boards, which we love. But the steeper the climb, kind of the bigger the holds naturally have to be, versus if you're climbing on, you know, like a dead vert or 10 degrees overhang, you can grab some nasty little weird holds, right? But people don't, you don't like that in the gym. Like you'll do that more outside, a lot of times you're just forced into it. So yeah, painful holds, tweaky holds.

Kris Hampton  05:54

Alright, next for me is actual top outs.

Nate Drolet  05:58

Ooo. Love it. 

Kris Hampton  05:59

You know, some gyms have top out boulders that generally have handlebar jugs, you can grab.

Nate Drolet  06:05

Love those, too. 

Kris Hampton  06:05

It's not some scary heel-above-your-head mantle on frictiony Horse Pens slopers, where if you fall off, you're probably going head first. It's not that style of top out. It's, you just don't get prepared for that stuff in the gym.

Nate Drolet  06:23

Yeah, yeah. And I will say one of my favorite tips for mantles - and this is also, so anytime we would do workshops, and especially when we would work with like a youth team, like youth competitive teams, this is great for slabs and mantles alike: keep breathing, stay calm, stay conscious, also. Like, if you can just keep breathing and stay calm on a mantle, your success rate will octuple. 

Kris Hampton  06:51

Yeah, totally. 

Nate Drolet  06:52

Because so often people get to the top out of a boulder, and in their mind, they're like, "I'm done." But all because they're, geographically they're very close. Yeah, but when things start, you know, kind of going poorly, like when it's not immediately just a handlebar jug they grab and they roll over, they start freaking out. They breathe faster, they start looking around really quickly, and it's ironic because if they were, you know, on a jug in the middle of a 45 degree wall, they would probably be more calm, they would look around ,be like, "Oh, hey, where's the next hold?" You can do the same thing, in fact, if you're mantling, half your body's probably already on top of the boulder; just lay down. Literally, relax your upper body, you can just get friction, sometimes you can even just lift your fingers up and you can relax. Take your time, take a few breaths, and just slowly work through it. Like mantling is physically not that challenging compared to most climbing, but you just have to be mentally prepared for it. Stay calm, keep breathing, that'll get you through a bunch of 'em. 

Kris Hampton  07:51

Yeah. And that's not to say there aren't really hard mantles, because there absolutely are really hard mantles. 

Nate Drolet  07:58

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  07:59

That are quite scary, quite hard to figure out, you know, but, but you're right. If you take the time, don't make the immediate decision that you can't do it and jump off, and, you know, you're, you're gonna get there half the time. 

Nate Drolet  08:13

Yeah. Alright. My next one is time constraints. You know, when you're in the gym, like, you don't have to worry about the season ending when you want to send your climb, like, yeah, things are gonna get reset but at the same time, like, you know, you're probably chasing the new sets anyways, so who even cares about the thing that was set six weeks ago, right? You're not worried about the day ending. So you're not thinking like, "Okay, I need to get up super early, get to the crag fast because, you know, this sun's going to hit my project."  Ironically, actually, in Houston, I was climbing in the gym with beautiful skylights, and there were some cruxes on certain walls, but super rare. And even then it's like still climate-controlled so it wasn't that big of a deal. It was more just something to laugh about. But your climb's gonna go into the sun. Your climb might be, you know, there are all sorts of things that you have to deal with for time constraints. So that's something you don't have to do as much indoors and preparing for that can make a huge difference.

Kris Hampton  09:13

Yeah, and I think even indoors, it's like, you know, the schedule of the setting. So, you know, the, the boulder might disappear, the route might disappear in three weeks, but you know that's happening. Outdoors, you can very often feel pressured because it could snow tomorrow. And then it's out - then you can't get up the road anymore to even get to your project. So that, that pressure of time definitely does not exist in the same way in the gym. Next for me: running it out. So just like long stretches between bolts. Oftentimes, the easier sections of sport climbs will have much longer sections where you're climbing without clipping, and in the gym, the bolts are all perfectly spaced. It's, you know, in a lot of gyms it's like, do three moves, clip a bolt, three moves, clip a bolt. And you never get to climb 25 moves in a row without clipping, you know. That's relatively common when you're climbing outside, to do a lot of moves, to be 10, 12, 15 feet above a bolt. Not super common in the gym and, and it's something you, a lot of people will have to take their time leaning into a little bit at a time to get better at.

Nate Drolet  10:37

Yeah, absolutely. That's, that is a big one. That, especially depending on the areas that you go to, like, you may be wandering far from the bolt. Like when I went to Ceuse, I was very surprised how much laterally you go away from bolts. Like, I climbed on a super famous route, "Face de Rat", 8a+ route there - 13c for the Americans - and there's one section that's, it's maybe 5.10 but, man, you go wandering like, I don't know, 18 feet out away from the bolt line. Like, big jugs but, man, you're, you're out there. Like it's, it's, it's thrilling.

Kris Hampton  11:15

Yep. I think one good tactic you can use in the gym if this is something, you know, you need to lean into a little bit, is just delay your clipping a little. And, and I'm not saying skip bolts, you know, a lot of gyms frown upon that. But you can still clip a bolt when it's below your waist. You can, you can hang out at the clipping hold and shake and breathe a little bit before you clip. That's going to get you a little better at not, not feeling like you have to clip right away, getting more comfortable being relaxed above bolts.

Nate Drolet  11:51

Absolutely. My next one is using beta videos. So this is something that does exist indoors to some degree.

Kris Hampton  12:00

Yeah, and more and more. Like Kaya is doing a fair amount of this kind of thing.

Nate Drolet  12:05

Yeah, and it, so it can exist, but it's just not as common. You know, like certain boards, like Tension and Moon both have a button you can press to watch videos, but it's always either with some like 6'4" bro, or it's some woman who's like 4'11" and way stronger than me. And I don't, I don't need to see either of those. One's not helpful and one just really hurts. So yeah, like, but going outside, you can find, you know, a million videos for anything. People of all sizes and all different types of beta, and you have to pay attention. Like, you can learn a lot from videos like: What's the landing like? How many pads do they bring? Do they have a spotter? No, like, because, like there are plenty of times where things are padded where you may not need a spotter. Is that spotter really close? Do three people in a row have a spotter in the same spot? Maybe there's a death pit you don't see, and you're like, "This looks exciting." And then like you go out, you're like, "Oh, this is exciting." Like, there are all these different things you can learn from video other than just simply beta. And learning how to take that in is super important so that when you go out there, you're as prepared as possible.

Kris Hampton  13:20

Yep, totally. I'll play off of that for my next one, which is uneven landings and fall-path planning. You know, and this includes for spotters and belayers. You know, in the gym, you're belaying on perfectly flat ground where there's not people's stuff, ideally, piled all over and... 

Nate Drolet  13:42

Hopefully not. 

Kris Hampton  13:42

...there's not a drop off. There's not a boulder behind you, you know, there's not tree roots sticking up. You're also, you never have to shuffle pads, you never have to figure out how to flatten out a landing. I'm not saying, you know, dig the dirt away to flatten out a landing, I'm just saying how to stack pads to make it flatter. There's a lot that goes into that and and you learn none of that in the gym.

Nate Drolet  14:09

Yeah, back when I was a Hueco Tanks guide that was, I mean, I like to think it's how I earned my tips. But basically people would just throw their pads out and I mean, like gaps, and corners, and pads are overlapping. And I had to take out a group of 10 people, 10 huge Organic pads drop, hit the ground, and I'm like, "Y'all are just gonna break ankles. I don't know how you can have... like, the foam to bad-landing zone ratio here is incredible. Really, I'm impressed. But just go, go sit, go look at, go look at the wall and I'm going to fix this for you. Because this is awful." So I would like immediately like disassemble whatever pad shenanigans they laid out and be like, "Okay, this is how we're going to do it."

Kris Hampton  14:57

And you know part of what I said may have changed a little in recent years, especially in commercial gyms with like big giant volumes and holds, that planning your fall path on a sport climb might be a little more harrowing in the gym now than it used to be. That's a real thing. But you know, they're still not like, especially when you're climbing in the lower grades, they're often going to be big ledges and things like that, that you have to consider when you're climbing. And that doesn't really happen quite as much in the commercial gyms. Though, you know, making sure you don't hit that Boss on your way down, it could definitely be a problem.

Nate Drolet  15:39

Yeah. Yeah, like, man, especially with like trad climbing. 5.6? Way scarier than 5.11. 

Kris Hampton  15:45

Totally.

Nate Drolet  15:46

5.6, you're hitting things on the way down. It's just a staircase.

Kris Hampton  15:49

Yeah, you're just bouncing off of things as you fall. 

Nate Drolet  15:51

Yeah. So the next one is the dynamics of moving around a crag, and trying to fit everyone's schedule in. So this, I think, is a huge one. And it's one that, man, I see experienced climbers still make mistakes with all the time.

Kris Hampton  16:08

Totally.

Nate Drolet  16:09

You know, like, bouldering is a great example. If you're bouldering in the gym, like, you know, it's like, "Hey, we're gonna go to this wall for a little bit," "Okay," and there's 20 climbs on, you know, a 15 foot wide spray. Perfect. Everyone gets to climb. It's like, "Oh, hey, let's go over there," everyone moves to that one. You go outside, and it's like, "Oh, there's this one boulder. And we're gonna be here for two hours, and then we're gonna go to that one boulder." And a lot of people might feel self-conscious. And they're like, "I don't want everyone to sit here and wait, because like, it's only my V5 here, and everyone else climbs harder. And they've done this already," or, or vice versa. You know, I've had clients who were like, they want to break into V10 but everyone they climb with, you know, was climbing in that like maybe V4 to V7 range, and they don't want them to have to sit at their project. But if you have this discussion early on, you're like, "Hey, let's, let's split this up. Like, you know, there's five of us." Also, maybe keep groups reasonable. If you go out with a group of 15 people, no one's going to be happy for the most part, especially the people who have to climb around you. But yeah, like, plan it early, make sure that you just say, "Hey, like, Oh, you want to get on that? We're gonna go there in the morning, or we'll go there for an hour. We'll switch off, you can eat, rest for a while, we'll go to my project for an hour." Like keep switching back and forth. Make plans.

Kris Hampton  17:29

Yeah, totally. I think it's such a valuable thing. And it's also, people mess it up on both ends. Like when they go outside, there are people who will certainly play the role of like the guide, the person who puts up the top ropes, you know, and they end up ruining their entire day because they've never had to figure out how to run logistics for a group of people of differing ability levels.

Nate Drolet  17:58

Yeah, exactly, totally. And they're, they feel responsible. And, you know, man, I, once again, have had clients who are like, "Oh, you know, I was putting up top ropes and cleaning things for people. And I did six pitches of 5.10 before I got to get on like my 12, 5.12 project," you know. It's like, well, six pitches of 5.10 is still tiring, like, especially when you're trying to do something at your limit only two grades above. 

Kris Hampton  18:22

Yep. And I'll play off of that with a little more rare situation, but: when you don't have other options. The gym doesn't prepare you for the situation where this is the thing, this is the only thing here. I came all the way up here for this thing. It's either all I have left at this crag, it's the only boulder here, you know, I'm gonna have to hike back to my car with all my stuff and drive to another area if I want to climb on something else. It doesn't prepare you for that reality. And you know, all the challenges that come along with trying just one sequence for an entire day of climbing. In the gym, if you get tired of it, if you get frustrated with it, whatever it is, you can just move to the next boulder 10 feet away that's the exact same grade, you can go pick out holds that you want to pull on more, whatever it is. It doesn't prepare you for that reality.

Nate Drolet  19:25

Yeah, that's always my favorite. You know, I've got like the Seven Go Rule which I talk about a lot, which is when you find a move that feels stopper, rather than passing judgment immediately, try it seven times before you make any decisions. You know, did you get closer? Cool, maybe keep trying it or come back in the future. If you made zero progress - not even like you slapped your hand an inch closer to the hold - after seven go's, you know maybe it's too hard for you right now and that's okay. Move on to something else. I say this and inevitably someone will always be like, "Oof, seven go's? I mean like I'm gonna get hurt if I try something seven go's. Like, I never try anything for seven go's!" And it's funny because then I think about like, yeah, like think about projecting outside and like, man, I'm going to spend eight hours under this boulder. Do maybe three moves. I might bring a lawn chair like, essentially like, I got my picnic basket. Like I am, I'm camping here at this boulder.

Kris Hampton  20:18

Was it Dave Graham's post I just read where he said he would try this boulder sometimes 200 times in a session?

Nate Drolet  20:29

He did just do "La Rustica", I haven't read it. I saw it. I haven't read it. But...

Kris Hampton  20:34

Somebody's post I just read was like, you know, I tried it for six days. Usually around 200 times a session.

Nate Drolet  20:43

Oh my God. Man, oof.

Kris Hampton  20:47

The gym does not prepare you for that reality. 

Nate Drolet  20:49

How many Seven Go's were there in that? Dave Graham's over here living that 200 Go Rule. Yeah, amazing. But I agree, it doesn't prepare you for that because you try a move twice and you're like, "Ehhhh, I don't know, I'll try the thing right next to this." 

Kris Hampton  21:06

Right. 

Nate Drolet  21:07

So easy to do. 

Kris Hampton  21:08

No options. 

Nate Drolet  21:09

Yeah. To fit right along with that is not having your perfect warm up scenario. Like, warming up in the gym is so nice.

Kris Hampton  21:19

I love it. I love having my circuit that I can do every time and that I know really well and makes me feel like a fucking superhero.

Nate Drolet  21:26

It's great and it's warm and it's cozy. And like, oh, you know what, my shoulders are a little tight. I'm gonna go do some kettlebell, some pullovers. I'll do some arm bars. You know, I'm gonna go get on the vert wall and climb some vertical jugs, maybe do some twisting, and then slightly more overhanging. I'll go through my circuit warmup. Hop on the hangboard then, really recruit the fingers. Now I'm ready.

Kris Hampton  21:48

Do two heavy deadlifts just to make sure my, my glutes are recruiting properly.

Nate Drolet  21:54

Exactly. We're getting this all. But you go outside, and you're like "Uhhhh." Perfect example: I got a buddy who was just out in Salt Lake the other day and went out climbing and went to a boulder that has a V9 and a V11 on it. And he went out and he climbed those two and I was like, "Yeah, was there any good warm up?" He was like, "Well, you know, the top of the 11's like, like V4. So I did that a few times. And then I did the 9. And then I did the 11." Yeah, I was like, yep, that sounds right. That's, uh, you know, maybe we do some pull ups in there. Some jumping jacks. Like, I walked from the parking lot to the boulder, like that warmed me up. But warming up outside is very in- un-ideal a lot of the times. And it often catches me off guard whenever I'm with someone who doesn't climb outside much. We'll be going out, and they're like, "Oh, well, where's the warm up?" And I'm like, "Oh, it's this really terrible thing." Or it's like, "It's the bottom of the 13d. You're going to do the first four bolts, repeat it a couple times." And they're like, "But it's 13d." I'm like, "Ahh, it's, eh. It's fine. It's whatever."

Kris Hampton  23:03

Yeah, exactly. Like when I was doing, trying "Flight of the Antelope", which I made a video about on our YouTube, it's a V10 that sits by itself. There's not much to warm up on near it. The top of it is an okay warm up, but it's also absolutely terrifying and has one of the scariest moves I've ever done up high. So not a thing I wanted to warm up on. 

Nate Drolet  23:31

Definitely.

Kris Hampton  23:34

Just wasn't an easy situation. And in the gym, I would have climbed my perfect circuit and gotten on it and been ready to go and I probably would have sent it days and days earlier because of that, you know? 

Nate Drolet  23:47

Yeah, yeah. So something you gotta kind of learn to work with as best as you can.

Kris Hampton  23:52

Yep, I will, I will play off of that as well with: the logistics to planning a day out. So not just even the day out, but the making sure all the things you need to do at work and the things you need to do at home and talking to your significant other, your partner and, you know, making sure all those plans are in place. And you don't have to do any of that to go to the gym for 45 minutes. 

Nate Drolet  24:20

Yeah, you gotta pack food. You can't stop at Chipotle on the way. 

Kris Hampton  24:24

Right, exactly. There's so much to it that's different than going to the gym. Do you eat Chipotle before you go to the gym?

Nate Drolet  24:30

Well, if I go before, I don't add meat because meat makes your hands sweat, as we've learned from Alex Megos, so I do a vegetarian burrito before. You know, I should start actually getting protein on the side. I should get the vegetarian burrito, get the new Pollo Asado - not sponsored by Chipotle, but I would be! Call me! - get that on the side like a little bowl or something and then eat half, stuff the rest in the other half once I'm done. Hit that anabolic window.

Kris Hampton  25:02

I like this. But what we don't know is if your hands sweat just because you bought meat? Or do they only sweat when you eat meat?

Nate Drolet  25:12

Maybe it's like, you know, guilty sweats of animal product? 

Kris Hampton  25:16

Maybe. That's certainly possible.

Nate Drolet  25:19

Science. We need to work, we need to run some research on this.

Kris Hampton  25:22

We need to figure this out.

Nate Drolet  25:25

Yeah, so the logistics of going out, and it sounds silly, but I mean, it is a thing. Like, you have, like a gym bag or something that can like just live in your car, versus like, you're going outside, you need to have your pads, you need to have all these different things.

Kris Hampton  25:40

Yeah. And if you have a, if you have a career that means you're, either you need to be on call or people need to be able to reach you, you have a family, you have lots of other responsibilities. It can be a pretty big task to get an entire day away where you don't need to be able to be reached. And in most climbing areas, that's the case.

Nate Drolet  26:05

Yeah. In Hueco, our buddy Kwang he had, I remember, one day I was going out and we're out on East Mountain and I look over and he's got his laptop out. He was working remote. He was like, "I get good service here." We're at the "Try Harder" boulder, and he's like sitting on top of the boulder working. He's like, "I just gotta get a few hours in here. And then I'll try my project in the afternoon." But yeah, so he found a spot on East Mountain where he got good enough service that he could hotspot into work remote.

Kris Hampton  26:34

That's hilarious. We need that in guidebooks from now on. That's the new, that's the new thing in guide books: little antenna icons, so you know where you get hotspots.

Nate Drolet  26:45

Amazing. So my next one is: it's much harder to avoid crowds. Like you're in the gym, you can kind of, you can kind of move around, go to a different wall, especially you just go to a wall that wasn't set in the last 10 days - empty. Or you just go where the climbing teams aren't.

Kris Hampton  27:09

But in a lot of the gyms, a lot of the mega gyms now are so vast, enormous, that there could be 250 people in the gym and there are still five or six corners where there's nobody.

Nate Drolet  27:24

And with the amount of people who work remotely now, a lot more people are going in early so they can avoid crowds. So you can do that. And if you go outside, especially if you're a weekend warrior, and if you want to climb on good rock climbs? Yeah, man, people like good rock climbs. It's weird, but they get busy.

Kris Hampton  27:41

Yeah. So that's something you have to get used to and, you know, learning how to communicate with people as you're doing that. You know, that's something I was fortunate, I started sport climbing at the Red so you just quickly, like... I didn't know you could go to a crag that didn't have 80 people at it. Like, you just wait in line. Like that's what you do. Or you like, you know, you chop it up, you figure out what's the lineup, "Hey, oh, is this a redpoint go? Are you working, is this a working burn?" And these are just comfortable casual conversations. But then I've gone to more remote crags and I'll walk up to people like, "Hey, how's it going? You know, what's, what's the lineup like? Like how long do you think you're going to be on it?" And they look at me like I've got antlers growing out of me. They're just like, there are eight other routes here that you could be getting on, why are you trying to get on this one? And I'm like, oh, I, I didn't realize this was not a normal thing.

Nate Drolet  27:41

You might get lucky, you know, you might just happen to hit the day at Drive-By when there are only, I don't know, 70 people there. But most days, in good weather, there are a lot of people lined up for the best rock climbs and a lot of the good climbing areas.

Kris Hampton  28:52

Yeah. And you know, it's a good, it's a really great skill to learn and it has its benefits. You know, you and I really first started connecting queuing up for routes in the Red. 

Nate Drolet  29:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  29:04

Has its benefits. Alright. Next for me: it doesn't prepare you - unless you're like in the Midwest or maybe even the Southeast - doesn't prepare you for adverse conditions. 

Nate Drolet  29:16

I already knew where this was going.

Kris Hampton  29:18

I've definitely climbed in some old gyms in the Midwest, that's like, just as humid and sticky and hot and gross to prepare you for summer, in the Red if you're going to climb in the Red in the summer. But otherwise, most gyms don't. They're climate controlled, you never have to worry about conditions, you know, not to mention the like frustration of trying something difficult in conditions.

Nate Drolet  29:47

Yeah, you know, and deal with rain. I actually have a photo on one of our, one of my first blog posts, I forget which one it is but, it's of a hold in TBA - the gym in Chattanooga - that didn't have, they would try and install like AC once a year, like, "We're getting it!" and then... 

Kris Hampton  30:04

It would get chalked up and die. 

Nate Drolet  30:05

Yeah, it'd run a week and then they're like, "Windows are open, they stay open!" But I have a photo of a dual-tex, like DRCC, one of those like half-moon holds. And the bottom was dual-tex and it was covered in condensation beads. And I was just, that was just it. But most places, we don't, you don't have to worry about it. And it's great. You just go in and it's nice all the time.

Kris Hampton  30:06

Yeah, totally.

Nate Drolet  30:27

My next one is: the need for core strength. Like, climbing indoors you just don't need it as much. Like, you're not doing as intricate of foot movements. Like it's, it's not a fun style to climb inside where you have to like, do ticky-tacky moves really tight. Like I can't, you know - I lived in Houston for almost two years, I could count on one hand the number of hard foot moves I had to do in that gym where I was like, "Oh, I need to lock everything down. And the hard part of this boulder is this foot move." Where I mean, every rock I might try outside, it's like, "Oh, there's a hard foot move." Like I remember living in Chattanooga, Jimmy Webb was talking about trying this project at Rocktown, which ended up becoming "The Matriarch". I think he said it took him three days to do the foot moves in isolation. And when he would be trying it, like his core tension for doing the foot moves was what was failing first, like that would end his session, because they were that hard.

Kris Hampton  31:36

Yeah, I believe it. I think it has a lot to do with, like, you know, setters are able to put the feet exactly where they want them, they're able to put the handholds at exactly the angle where they want them. But that doesn't mean that they should. Sometimes it's better to put the thing at a funky angle - don't put a foot where you want it, put the foot a little too far away. And you know, people are going to complain. Somebody's going to come in and be like, "That foothold's too far away." So the fuck what? Set them a different boulder, doesn't mean you have to change this one. You know, I really think that's a big part of it. Just we've, we've gotten trapped into putting the holds where we want them.

Nate Drolet  32:25

Yeah, and it's, you know, and it's fun, but also, it's like... and also there's just, so many gyms have enormous footholds. Like, it, man, I just laugh so hard. Like there are so many times I'd be like, "Oh, these are, I'm on a 45, I'm on these half-pad incut crimps. And I am stepping on toasters." Like what is happening? Like I could be climbing this, these in my tennis shoes. And maybe that's like, I don't know, maybe there's something to that? Like, a lot of setters will forerun in tennis shoes or very comfy shoes. Which makes sense - like, your route setter's job is hard and like people complain about it all the time. I'd be wearing comfy shoes, too. But like, it's, it's not that often that I go somewhere where I'm like, "Oh, these are like bad footholds that aren't just like horrendous smears. These are like truly bad footholds that I need to keep my feet on and apply a lot of tension for."

Kris Hampton  33:15

Totally. And that's my next one, is: bad feet. I think gyms do slopey feet really well. I think part of it is the production. Like I didn't know this until I worked with Escape to create our Inductors, and Diodes, and Resistors, how hard and expensive it is to create tiny, incut feet. It's, it's so hard to produce them. Why would you spend all this time and energy making this tiny little foothold that people will be willing to pay $4 for, versus you could make a giant sloper in the same amount of time and sell it for $95? It doesn't make any sense business-wise so nobody's going to do it. And that's why we're the only ones who do it. And Escape produces the things more as a favor for me and for the home-wall owners. Because they're certainly not making any money off of it, you know? So, for me, that's that's a big one. If you want to learn to climb on slopey feet, the gym will prepare you quite well for that. Maybe not for real friction smears. Better now, they're doing a much better job now. But the small, incut, tiny little edges you have to toe into? Nonexistent in the gym.

Nate Drolet  34:41

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I'd say the last two years of living in Houston, like I got a lot better at smearing and moving off of slopey feet. But man, like, going back to climbing outside more often, like, I have, like my skills have degraded. For like, I mean for one: using small feet, and two: like engaging my core the way I used to, which, both of those I used to consider two of my greatest strengths. But it makes like, it makes sense to me why, you know, I'll talk with people who climb predominantly indoors, or they'll climb like on boards a lot. And they're like, "Yeah, I just, I don't think core strength really plays that big of a role in climbing." And it's like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, or they'll be like, "Yeah, I mean, you know, footwork - whatever." But it's like, if you... 

Kris Hampton  35:24

It's because you're climbing outside a lot. 

Nate Drolet  35:27

Yeah, if you're climbing outside a lot? Like, man, those things are enormous. And like, you can't have enough of them.

Kris Hampton  35:34

Yeah. And pro-tip: definitely buy our footholds. They will make you a better climber, assuming you use them, instead of letting your ego get in the way.

Nate Drolet  35:46

I hear they're not possible to stand on.

Kris Hampton  35:48

I've been told that.

Nate Drolet  35:52

So my next one is: detailed sequences. So, highly-intricate movement sequences. There's a style - and I stole this phrase from Matt Pincus - and it's: "order of operations". And so often, you'll have this outside where, okay, there's a sequence where you're not traveling geographically very far - maybe you're only going three feet - but there might be 12 moves, right? Like you're bumping a hand up, shifting a foot, dropping your pinky so you can set the heel, and then lowering the heel; like all these little intricate things. And each of those 12 moves? Not bad. But you must do them in perfect order. If you mess up one sequence, one part of the sequence? That's it. Your goal is done.

Kris Hampton  36:35

Right. You're just stuck there looking at it like what, what happened? What did I do wrong?

Nate Drolet  36:38

Yeah, you're like, "I forgot to move the pinky!" And I'm like, "I did the full span move. And now I can't, I can't pull the pinky off to set the heel. And I'm stuck." You just step off. Or you can try and go, but you're not going to do it. 

Kris Hampton  36:50

Yeah, I never have the problem of forgetting to drop the pinky. 

Nate Drolet  36:53

Way ahead of all of us right here. 

Kris Hampton  36:55

Yeah, I've been practicing that.

Nate Drolet  36:56

Living in the future. But order of operations climbing, like highly-detailed sequences. And it makes sense because it's like, one: it's really hard to set. Most climbing holds, like, a lot of them are made to grab one way. Even if they're big and beautiful. And sometimes there are other ways but, like, a lot of times there's one way to grab a hold and that's how you're going to do it. So you're not going to readjust, shift, do different things. And it's really hard in the gym where holds are like a little bigger, bigger like, more beefy incut. Like, it's hard to set these small intricate moves where people don't just like pull through.

Kris Hampton  37:34

Yeah, and when the feet are gigantic, it's hard to stop people from just leaping off of these giant feet, you know?

Nate Drolet  37:41

A classic example is: the World Cup just happened in Seoul, South Korea; and the finals, I think it was Men's #3, like Yoshiyuki Ogata goes out first and does the whole sequence. It's like this big dog-legging boulder that goes way out right. Super intricate footwork, all these things, like hard shoulder jump, jump move, comes back - like all these things. Second guy comes out, looks up and, and he's pretty tall. Skips, I think like, six moves. And literally just like grabs one good hold and leaps to a jug and goes to the top. And it's like, "Oh, hopefully he's just tall." Every climber after that just did the exact same thing. Because it's like, man, like, if you give strong climbers a decent foot and a decent hand, they can just launch off of it. 

Kris Hampton  38:29

Yep, totally. 

Nate Drolet  38:30

But yeah, outside, like things are just a little, there's a lot more like, kind of fucked up holds, like weird things like, oh, this is just like a dimple that you're grabbing. Like, you would never want to grab it inside because it's maybe painful, it's just weird. But it's like you have to grab this dimple and then shift or the dimple's the pinky now, and like - all these things.

Kris Hampton  38:49

Yeah, that leads me right into my next one, which is: non-holds. It doesn't teach you how to use non-holds, you know? I just, I just did a boulder - V10-ish thing that I had found, and cleaned up, and figured out the moves for - and, and I couldn't identify many of the things I ended up using as holds, as holds, until I like got to a position and was like, "How, how can I move out of this position? Oh, I need this thing? That's not a hold but weird, it works." And they're all these like complicated order of operations on non-holds where I'm flipping things and holding things a weird way that don't look like a traditional climbing hold at all. And I think if you can understand those things a little better, know how to use them, start to be able to see them, that opens up a lot of avenues for you climbing and you just can't really learn that in the gym. Maybe there's a little more of it with volume climbing now but those still rely on like corners and things to be able to use. It's still not nearly as subtle as real rock is.

Nate Drolet  38:49

It's very televised. Like, "Oh, this is kind of a non-hold, but the hold is there." And it's like covered in chalk. And like...

Kris Hampton  40:02

Right. "This hold here is a non-hold." 

Nate Drolet  40:08

Exactly. It's like this bright pink thing is here. And you're like, they put it here for a reason. Like, there's, you go outside, like, there's no reason that any of these holds are here, like, you just have to wade your way through this chaos. You know, one of my favorite examples of that is "The Rhino" in Hueco. Like I walked under it before it had ever been done and gun to my head, I wouldn't have told you there was ever a climb there. Even after it had been chalked up and done, you know, a half-dozen times, I still walked under it and I was like, "The slopers are upside down. Like, I don't know why these are chalked." And it really took like, climbing on it and moving across it to be like, "Oh, you can use these." It's, it's insane. Like, but, to have the vision for that is like really cool. But so much of that happens outside, where it's like, yeah, these little dimples and nothing's, like, make the world of a difference. 

Kris Hampton  41:07

Yeah, they can open up a door.

Nate Drolet  41:11

That is... so I'm done with mine.

Kris Hampton  41:14

That's all of yours? 

Nate Drolet  41:15

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  41:15

I've got one more. And it sort of leads right out of my non-holds. And that's: the skill and ability to search for beta that isn't apparent. You know, yes, there are tricky sequences in the gym. Yes, there are things you may not see. But the, the beta in a gym is still relatively limited. And you can see all of the holds; every one of them is pink and right in front of you. And, you know, out on a rock, you get to use whatever's there. 

Nate Drolet  41:51

There are no rules.

Kris Hampton  41:53

Yeah, searching for that beta, when it's not apparent that you need to go from this hold to this hold and you're not sure where you're supposed to go, is a skill that you just can't learn in the gym. And, you know, it gets greater and greater and greater the more moves you're doing. So sport climbs, you know, somewhere like the Red? 5.9 can feel impossible to somebody who's a 5.12 climber in the gym because there are 7,000 chalked holds and you don't know what to do, because you could grab anything. The beta is not very apparent, you know? The same, just the inverse problem of not knowing where to go is: all the holds are usable, what do I do now?

Nate Drolet  42:41

Yeah. That, I mean, that is definitely a thing. Like, you can get overwhelmed with options outside so easily.

Kris Hampton  42:47

Yeah, totally. Alright. I think it's a great list of things. You know, and no, no shade thrown at the gyms here. There are gyms that are preparing us really well. There's no question of that. They've opened up, you know - I attribute a lot of the harder climbing in the world to gyms being available. 

Nate Drolet  43:08

Yeah. And I mean, the changes now versus what things used to be like: the addition of volumes, and the way holds are, and like, the professionalism of route setters. Amazing. I mean, we really take leaps forward, year after year, and it's incredible to see. 

Kris Hampton  43:25

Yeah, so no shade at all thrown at the gyms. Thanks for what you're doing route setters, gym owners, everybody out there. But these are things that you as the climber need to be really intentional about. Some of them, you can practice and get a little better at in the gym, if you try really hard to. Some of them, you're just going to have to learn outside. Put the intention into that, be aware of it, and put the time in now. I think that's the best thing you can do. 

Nate Drolet  43:53

Yeah, and take your time. Like it - even for experienced outdoor climbers, like - it's normal. Like in Hueco, there's the common learning curve that everyone always says like, "Oh, it's like, it'll take you two weeks." Like you're gonna be out here, you're gonna climb for, it'll take two weeks of climbing where you're like feeling a little clunky. And suddenly your feet are gonna stick to the rock more, the moves are gonna feel smaller, the hands are going to feel a little bit bigger to you. Like it just takes a little adaptation. And you'll good at what you do. Like if you spend more time climbing outside, you'll get better at climbing outside.

Kris Hampton  44:24

Totally, totally. And if you're in a gym, especially if you're in Salt Lake City, and you want to get better at climbing outside and you think a coach would help you, Nate is in Salt Lake. He'll be doing some private coaching through the Momentum gyms. You can hit him up through here, you can find him on Instagram: @natedrolet That's correct. And also reach out through our website, or info@powercompanyclimbing.com We can connect you with Nate. If you'd like to get a leg up, be better than your friends - we all want that, right? Yeah, yeah. And you guys know where to find us: Power Company Climbing, on the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the YouTubes, the Pinterest - all over the damn place. Find us there. Follow us. Please give us a five-star review, five-star rating, leave us a review. I don't even know what these things are, we've been doing this podcast for so long. 

Nate Drolet  45:26

Put star emojis in the review and leave a five-star rating.

Kris Hampton  45:29

Fire emojis - I would prefer fire emojis actually. So please follow us on those social medias, tell your friends and look for us on the Twitter. Tweet about us. But you're not going to find us there, because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.