Episode 31: Devil's Advocate | The Moon Board (featuring Ben Moon)

It's here.  The one you've been waiting for.  The "Moon Board" Episode.  And that's not all.  We recorded the conversation, sent it to the man himself, Ben Moon, and then Skyped him in to get his opinions.  Legend.

The facts, the myths, what you're doing right, and where you're going wrong.  

Is the "Moon Board" the best training tool out there?  Listen and decide for yourselves.  Then stop clogging my Instagram feed, and get off my lawn, ya damn kids!

You can find Ben, the "Moon Board," and Moon Climbing at: www.moonclimbing.com

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Female Speaker  00:00

Today's episode of The Power Company Podcast is brought to you by you.

Kris Hampton  00:07

Hey everybody, Kris here, just a couple of notes on today's episode. First off, it's gonna be a long one. So strap in and enjoy the ride. And second, you're gonna want to stick around after it seems like the conversation might be over because we reached out to Ben Moon and got his opinions on our conversation. Enjoy.

Jack Nicholson as The Joker  00:27

 Tell me something my friend. Ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight? I always ask that of all my prey. I just like the sound of it.

Kris Hampton  01:13

What's up, everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. And I will be on the con side of today's conversation.

Nate Drolet  01:22

And I am Nathan Drolet. And I'll be on the pro side of the conversation today.

Female Speaker  01:26

Today's Devil's Advocate topic: The MoonBoard.

Female Speaker  01:30

 About the MoonBoard.

Kris Hampton  01:31

Nate, do you want to tell people what the MoonBoard is? Specifically the people who don't have Instagram, Facebook or any friends? 

Nate Drolet  01:39

Yes, yeah. If you don't have any sort of social media, then maybe it's possible you don't know what it is. So the MoonBoard is a fixed wall. It's 40 degrees overhanging and all the holes on it are numbered and arrowed for specific degrees so that every single person in the world who uses it can set all the holes in the exact same orientation as each other. And in the exact same position. That way, there can be a global community that uses the board.

Kris Hampton  02:08

And how does the global community know what everyone else is doing?

Nate Drolet  02:12

I think Instagram hashtags. So there's an app that goes along with it. And with the app, you can upload your own problems. And everyone else can upload their problems too. You can go through, set filters so that you can filter through the problems. And you can share your problems in your list with friends. And so even if you are climbing by yourself, you can still use other people's problems. And yeah, so yeah, more or less kind of climb with your friends.

Kris Hampton  02:39

Yeah, I talked to Moon recently. And they said that the current set, because they they change the the set ever so often, has over 4000 problems set by around 1000 setters. And right now there's close to 8000 active app users.

Nate Drolet  02:58

That's pretty impressive.

Kris Hampton  02:59

It is pretty impressive. I wouldn't have guessed quite that many.

Nate Drolet  03:03

And I guess as far as a some things go. So the app is relatively new, I'd say it's maybe only a year or a year and a half old.

Kris Hampton  03:11

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Nate Drolet  03:12

Something like that. In the past, there were I believe three sets and people would just kind of alternate over time. And you would just have to like print out the problems more or less. 

Kris Hampton  03:24

Right.

Nate Drolet  03:24

 So it's really nice. The app now they've completely gotten rid of the original three sets. And there is just one set that everyone uses now.

Kris Hampton  03:32

And does that change yearly, do you know?

Nate Drolet  03:34

They haven't changed it yet. Since the app, it's been the exact same. So I don't know when they're going to change it. 

Kris Hampton  03:40

Okay. 

Nate Drolet  03:41

But yeah, and so now it's one solid one, one solid set. And it's kind of nice, because a lot of people would have to like print out giant binders with all the problems printed out. And this makes it really nice. So yeah, that's the MoonBoard.

Kris Hampton  03:56

Yeah. And I also talked to Ben about, you know, some specific advances they were going to make, like where they're going next. I was curious what he was going to do from here. And he told me that they are going to be changing the set, and it will fill all 198 hold placements on the board, so there's no open holes like there are now.

Nate Drolet  04:20

Okay, is that like, I mean, that's what another like 50 holds or something, isn't it?

Kris Hampton  04:23

Yeah, it's gonna include a new range of 50 resin holds as well as 30 to 40 wooden holds 

Nate Drolet  04:31

Oh wow. 

Kris Hampton  04:31

This is what he told me. I don't know why they're mixing it up. But they are. He's also working on which I think this part is kind of cool, even though I'm on the con side of the argument today, on a strength and fitness assessment tool, so that you can assess yourself on the MoonBoard and working on an interval timer for the LED system that comes with the board, which we haven't even talked about yet.

Nate Drolet  04:58

Yeah. Which is actually pretty cool. The LED system, there are little LED lights that sit, maybe two inches under, well, no, probably about four inches under every t nut. But with the hold, it looks like it's about maybe two inches under every single hold. And I gotta say, first time I saw a video, I was like, Ah, this is just a stupid gimmick, like, it seemed really silly. And then the first time I actually used one, it's pretty rad, just to be able to like, swipe through the problems really fast and like have the LEDs immediately sync. So the way the LED system works is it's synced through Bluetooth from your phone to the board itself.

Kris Hampton  05:34

Right, right. And the way the interval timer is gonna work is that, as I understand it, is that you can set the intervals. So if you want the problem to change to another specific problem every minute or whatever, it can switch the problem and just automatically highlight it for you. 

Nate Drolet  05:53

Nice. 

Kris Hampton  05:53

So MoonBoarding for Dummies. That's what it is. 

Nate Drolet  05:56

Yes. And it is nice, because that's one thing that can be tough, you get pretty quick at when you've used a MoonBoard a lot, like looking over the boulders and memorizing which holds or which because there's obviously no tape. But it is really nice having LED lights. So you can just go to a new problem instead of having to sit there and memorize which holds or have a friend yelled at you, you know, there's lights right below them. So makes it a little quicker. And yeah, what I thought was definitely really gimmicky to start, I was pretty impressed with.

Kris Hampton  06:25

Cool. I haven't used the LED system. So that's that's cool to hear that. They're also working on a 25 degree board. I don't know if it's going to be a separate board or just a separate set, or if it's going to be the same set just at 25 degrees, and they have different grades for every problem. But I do think it's interesting that they're switching the board degree. So

Nate Drolet  06:48

Yeah, I think it makes sense. Not every boulder in the world is 40 degrees.

Kris Hampton  06:51

Yeah, it's true. Like two of them, actually.

Nate Drolet  06:54

 Two. Most routes are not.

Kris Hampton  06:56

 No, definitely not. And you guys may have seen this out there on the interwebs, but there is a new freestanding MoonBoard that has hit the airwaves. And it's a powder coated steel frame and then it's the same MoonBoard setup with LEDs. You can switch it from 40 degrees, which is the standard angle or 25 degrees, which is going to be one of the new angles. And that one costs, I can't even read this big number. It's a with pads, it's $12,642. And without pads $8,960. That's pre shipping. And I don't know how much shipping of a powder coated steel framed MoodBoard costs, but it's got to be a little bit. But it's a really cool idea.  I'll be interested to see where that one goes. 

Nate Drolet  07:54

For sure. And that one can shift between the 25 and the 40, correct?

Kris Hampton  08:00

Yeah, yep. That one can go just to those two degrees. I don't think it can be in between.

Nate Drolet  08:05

 I didn't see that, but yes.

Kris Hampton  08:07

Yeah. Just the 40 and the 25 is how I understand it. How many MoonBoards did you guess are in the US?

Nate Drolet  08:13

I think I already know the answer.

Kris Hampton  08:16

Did I tell you the answer?

Nate Drolet  08:17

You told me but I'll tell you my initial guess I think was around 300.

Kris Hampton  08:20

Yeah, that's about what I would have guessed 300-400. Ben says that based on holds sold, there are over 1000 MoonBoards in the US right now, so

Nate Drolet  08:31

Which is crazy to think about. 

Kris Hampton  08:32

So there's a lot of you guys out there. 

Nate Drolet  08:34

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  08:34

And hopefully you're all listening to this episode.

Nate Drolet  08:37

Right now.

Female Speaker  08:39

Personal Experience.

Nate Drolet  08:42

A couple years ago, maybe three years ago, I spent about six months training on a MoonBoard. I was training on it one day a week. Specifically, I wanted to get better at tick-tacky, straightforward crimp climbing. Like hard tension moves, small tweaky holds. And this seemed like a great tool for it.

Kris Hampton  09:02

 Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  09:02

So that's what I focused on. One day a week, I would go into the gym, warm up. I would typically warm up for maybe like 30 minutes or so on the MoonBoard using the hold sets A and B which are like kind of larger holds, fairly positive. And then I'd set a timer for an hour. And for that one hour, I would just session hard on only the original holds, which are like the small yellow ones.

Kris Hampton  09:24

 Right.

Nate Drolet  09:25

 Really tweaky but kind of in a way that feels similar to climbing outside, you know, just only climb on that set, and then that's cool down and that would be my one session for the week. This was back before that app existed, so the only problems I had access to are ones that were printed out in a binder. So I maybe had access to, there were a lot of problems at the time, but I think we maybe had 100 in the book.

Kris Hampton  09:50

Gotcha. Where was that board at?

Nate Drolet  09:53

That was at High point Climbing and Fitness in Chattanooga. 

Kris Hampton  09:56

Okay. I didn't realize they had one that long ago. 

Nate Drolet  09:58

Mm hmm.

Kris Hampton  09:58

 Cool.

Nate Drolet  09:59

Yeah. And that's yeah, it's not where I've always trained, but at the time, I was doing some restaurant work and I could only train early in the mornings. And so I was climbing at that gym. And that's also what spurred me to start climbing on the MoonBoard was they had it at this gym and so that's where I started climbing. 

Kris Hampton  10:15

Okay, cool. But, and then you've climbed on it since then?

Nate Drolet  10:18

I have. Uh, yeah, I've climbed on it since since the app has come out. And so I've gotten to kind of experience that. And it was kind of neat to, I got to go back before that, even before the app came out, I got to keep climbing on it over the last like, the next year afterwards. And I could come back and check out the boulders I had trained on. And so it was kind of nice having a check in spot, like a metric of sorts, be able to say like, okay, like, well, this boulder was really hard for me last year, but it feels easier now. And this one, like I used to be able to circuit every day as a warm up. And now it's like, kind of strenuous. So it's cool, kind of having like a preset thing.

Kris Hampton  10:58

So even before the app,  was the board you were training on was that the same set? Like the same wall configuration that ended up being the one for the app?

Nate Drolet  11:11

No, it was this was still before the app came out.

Kris Hampton  11:13

 Okay, 

Nate Drolet  11:14

So I trained on it and then it was like the full next year later was, which was still before the app came out. Oh, God. Yeah, um, so would have been like, two years ago, I got to do that. And then even since the app came out, like I got, I trained a little bit on that, when it first came out. And then a full year later. So just recently, I got to climb on it again. You know, it's kind of neat getting to check in and still have, like, you know, somewhat permanent boulders to try. You know, that doesn't really happen indoors.

Kris Hampton  11:40

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's an important thing to have in your training. 

Nate Drolet  11:44

Yes, so that's more or less my experience on it. Yeah, I really wanted to just get better at straightforward crimp boulders and so that's what I used it for. 

Kris Hampton  11:52

Yeah my experience is much, much less than that. I initially looked into getting a Moon Board for the Engine Room when I was building it, six years ago, I guess, five years ago, something like that, and wasn't able to get ahold of one. And I actually reached out to Moon's US rep. And he told me, there was almost no way to get it at that point. 

Nate Drolet  12:20

Wait. To get the holds? 

Kris Hampton  12:22

The holds, yeah. 

Nate Drolet  12:22

Okay. 

Kris Hampton  12:22

Yeah. That, that they just didn't have them. And it was hard to get ahold of them over here. So. So I abandoned that idea. And we didn't have quite the space. And we were trying to work out how to fit it in if we did. And we couldn't really come up with what the best option was to shorten the board, so to speak. So we abandoned that idea. And then since it got more popular, I've climbed on it just a tiny bit here and there. And it always felt like something that I needed to be in shape for, like, like climbing on the MoonBoard was its own special thing. And if I was in shape to climb, you know, thuggy roof climbing, I could get on the MoonBoard and get nowhere in a session because it was just too hard. So, so I haven't spent a ton of time on it. And just haven't had one of my disposal, because since it started to get really popular, I've been traveling a ton, so but I have climbed in that same system of permanent boulders that you can climb on over a long period of time. And I really do like that system. So I've spent a lot of time with that.

Female Speaker  12:39

Topic #1: The MoonBoard's effectiveness as a training tool.

Kris Hampton  13:44

Alright. Hit me with the first one.

Nate Drolet  13:46

First one is that it's simple and it's easy to focus on the basics. So a big beef that I have with gym climbing is a lot of times, I won't say things are over complicated, but every single boulder might have like three toe hooks, and four heel hooks and all these different things. It's a lot of trickery, which I mean, it's really good to have those skills. But it's not that often that you just have in the gym, straightforward, hard pulling, like you're just toeing down and you're just moving between the holds. A lot of times, there's always some sort of trick to it and holds a very large and bulbous so you can like get bicycles and all these weird things. 

Kris Hampton  14:24

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  14:24

And I really liked that on the MoonBoard, the way it climbs is, you know, you have, you know, start holds, a handful of holds, and every time you move up like your footholds are only the base at the kicker, like the kickboard at the very bottom and after that you're tracking feet. So you're very limited on hands and feet. And it's just a matter of like pulling hard between holds. So it's very simple. Like I really like that. You get to just break down and just move between hold and it's not like oh, I just didn't see this inverted drop knee Egyptian bicycle.

Kris Hampton  14:56

Right, right. Yeah, I could see that and you know, gyms are definitely moving more and more toward like World Cup style setting and

Nate Drolet  15:05

Which is a ton of fun.

Kris Hampton  15:06

Yeah, super fun. Yeah, I have zero problem with it as its own thing. But it doesn't really set you up very well for hard crimping up a steep boulder. 

Nate Drolet  15:16

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  15:17

So, yeah, I can see that I think I like the simplicity of it as well. But, you know, in response to that, I think that its, its simplicity is sort of part of its problem, because it you know, while someone like you who's really aware of what they're doing while they climb and can, can focus on doing a move a specific way, rather than just the easiest way to do it, to learn, most people are just going to jump from hold to hold or stay on the big starting feet for as long as they can, and then just jump to the next hold. You know, so I think it's sort of its simplicity, sort of rewards, being really, really jumpy. And, you know, I don't know that that's the the best way to train. So that's my, that's my beef with its simplicity. 

Nate Drolet  16:13

And that is fair. That's actually one thing that I do have a little bit of an issue with and it's tough. It depends just on like, I guess how strong your fingers are. And like how hard you're climbing. One issue I ran into is everything that's, I won't say everything, but like a lot of the boulders that are 7c and harder, so V9, man for the most part, if you're staying on, not the original holds, but the other two sets, it's just jumping. Like I mean, I'm only 5'7", but I've got a pretty wide wingspan and man, like that's one of the main reasons I only started climbing on the yellow holds was because the other ones just felt like jumping for every single move. And I feel like, yeah, if you're climbing in a commercial gym in the US in the United States, like you're pretty good at jumping to good holds like, right, that's just the common setting style.

Kris Hampton  17:00

Yeah, I'm definitely in the minority, that jumping is not easy for me. So you know, and the people who love jumping aren't getting a whole lot out of the the jumpy problems on the MoonBoard. You know, so. And one other issue I have with its simplicity, and is that it's maybe too simple. There are no slopers. You know, even though the website claims slopers, there really aren't any slopers. There are some slopey holds, but I definitely wouldn't call them slopers. You know, so I have an issue with that for sure as a complete training tool.

Nate Drolet  17:36

Yes. Yeah. As a well rounded, complete training tool for everything, I think that's a fair statement.

Kris Hampton  17:41

 Yep.

Nate Drolet  17:43

 Yeah. So you want me to just keep going through my bullets here? 

Kris Hampton  17:45

Yeah. Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  17:46

All right. So my next one is that it's you can have unchanging long term projects. You can have metric boulders. And also, this is an interesting one, that comes from a guy that trained metric circuits. 

Kris Hampton  17:59

Explain.

Nate Drolet  18:00

 So that's more, he was doing a variation on four by fours, where you are using very, very hard boulders and very long rest times. And he, it was kind of cool for him to be able to say, Oh, I could link like, these four V8s back to back with, you know, only five to 10 seconds of rest in between. You know, that's where I was the beginning of the season and at the end of the season, I could take them all up a number and do harder boulders or like, you know, 

Kris Hampton  18:27

Okay, gotcha. 

Nate Drolet  18:28

And by doing that, he could know like, Oh, well, if my route outside has like, four back to back V6s, if I can do four back to back V8s on this, like, I'm gonna go out and crush it. So it's kind of neat. Like, that was just a second little thing. But yeah, like, I really like the idea of having long term projects, or long term things you can come back to in the gym and look at because not everyone has access to climbing outside and good weather year round.

Kris Hampton  18:54

Yeah, yeah. And I agree completely, that having access to training boulders, for a long period of time is hugely important. You know, and I wrote about this on the blog a long time ago, concerning the what was the problem that Daniel Woods did at CATS?

Nate Drolet  19:14

The Bubble Wrap 

Kris Hampton  19:15

The Bubble Wrap Project, yeah. And, you know, talking about the importance of The Bubble Wrap Project and, and because of that, I love spaces like CATS that is just, you know, littered with holds. Problems everywhere, just a binder of problems or whatever, you know, in this case, it's an app. So I like that. I don't think it has to be on a MoonBoard though. I think it can be you know, it can be any wall and any holds and, and if you set it up with other holds, you can have a wider variety. So I agree with you on the concept for sure. I just don't think the MoonBoard is the best tool for that specific idea.

Nate Drolet  20:00

Okay. What to you would be, like, let's say someone's, someone's at home, they're like, hey, I want to build a home wall. And I want to have all my own holds, and they just decide they're gonna build something ground up, blank slate, what would you recommend?

Kris Hampton  20:18

I think it would be different for every person. 

Nate Drolet  20:20

That's fair.

Kris Hampton  20:20

Just really depends on, you know, what their goals are and their strengths and weaknesses, you know, and if their weaknesses are jumps to crimps, then, you know, build yourself a MoonBoard, for sure. If you're really good at jumps to crimps, and you want to spray about it on a MoonBoard, then do that too. But it's not going to help you nearly as much. So yeah, that's, that's my thought.

Nate Drolet  20:46

Okay. The next one I have is that the board is really short, which I really like. And so it forces you to focus on really brief, difficult sequences, like even the really long MoonBoard boulders are like maybe six moves long, but a lot of them are, you know, four and five moves long. And this kind of goes back to commercial gyms in the United States, like man, walls are just so tall.

Kris Hampton  21:10

Yeah getting bigger and bigger. 

Nate Drolet  21:11

Oh, yeah.

Kris Hampton  21:12

 Yeah. Scary tall. 

Nate Drolet  21:13

Yeah, like 16 feet. That's messed up, man. But yeah, so you know, you're climbing these little mini routes in the gym a lot of the time, just these huge power endurance lines where every single move is roughly as hard as the last one. 

Kris Hampton  21:27

Right.

Nate Drolet  21:28

 And so it's kind of cool to have this where it's just like, four piss-hard moves, and like, yeah, and also, they're just a lot of times kind of awkward. 

Kris Hampton  21:36

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  21:37

Especially the old sets, like now that like people are uploading their own, like, they're getting a little more ergonomical, which I'm not sure how I feel about that. I kind of like the awkward tweaky things.

Kris Hampton  21:47

 Yeah, you would.

Nate Drolet  21:49

Yeah, well, it's good. I mean, it forces you into things you wouldn't normally do. But, uh, 

Kris Hampton  21:54

Okay.

Nate Drolet  21:54

Yeah, I'm just a fan that it is something short and difficult.

Kris Hampton  21:58

Yep. I agree. I think that's a really good thing about it. I'm glad it's not bigger than it is. Size-wise anyway, because it's plenty big enough on Instagram. But yeah, I really liked the short difficult part of it. I have heard from, I talked to a bunch of our mutual friends who spent a lot of time on MoonBoards, or around them and, and one of the complaints I have heard most often is that, especially with the current set, a lot of the problems start sitting and on fairly large holds, so that by the time you are two moves in, or a move in, you can high step up to a big foothold, and then kind of ride the foothold through the problem. You know, so you're no longer doing really hard foot movements, or holding small feet with your, with your feet. So that would be you know, it's it's shortness, with it starting on big holds, sort of creates that situation. So,

Nate Drolet  23:02

Yeah, no, that's totally fair. That is actually one of my criticisms of it is that man, all the holds are fairly positive. They might be facing the wrong way. But even if they're facing the wrong way, you can smear on top of them and it's not a bad foot. So yeah, they are very positive like big holds. And if you're strong with your legs, and you're really good at just like driving through your legs, it makes the boulder significantly easier. Also can be tough, like so there's a base kicker board, I think it's maybe a foot tall at the very bottom,and then when you're climbing ,because it's that's an open set of feet, you don't get another foothold till the start hold. So if your start hold is not another like three feet above those. there's this massive three foot gap of you know, you paddle up your hands as far as you can go while reaching on the the kicker board.

Kris Hampton  23:51

 Hold the swing.

Nate Drolet  23:52

 Hold the swing or do a jump and then you're like tagging the start hold which sometimes is a jug. It's not often it's not  unoften that it's a fairly decent hold.

Kris Hampton  24:00

 Yep. 

Nate Drolet  24:02

So yeah, that I think it's completely fair criticism that there aren't really like bad small footholds on the board.

Kris Hampton  24:10

Yep. Cool.

Nate Drolet  24:14

Yeah, that's more or less what I have. Otherwise I have that there are lots of options. I mean, 4000 boulders.

Kris Hampton  24:20

Yeah, that's pretty huge. 

Nate Drolet  24:21

Yeah I'm not entirely sure if I feel like that's a pro or a con. But

Kris Hampton  24:25

Because a lot of the moves are gonna end up similar. Yeah, you know, but yeah, I do think that you know, having that variety is pretty, pretty amazing really.

Nate Drolet  24:35

Yeah. If nothing else, it is very impressive.

Kris Hampton  24:38

Yeah. So we we covered one of mine for sure, that it lends itself to a particular style. But also I think that you know, and this is sort of a complaint with the LED system and with the you know, being fed boulder problems all the time. And this is a problem with commercial gyms as well, in my opinion, unless they just have a wall littered with holds that you can make up your own problems on, is that a really important part of deliberate practice and learning any skill is building mental representations of how those skills work. You know, and if you never really have to experiment with beta, because it's just essentially fed to you, then you you're never going to build those mental representations. You know, it's almost, not quite, okay, yeah, it's not even almost, but it's sort of somewhat similar to having the the spraylord in the gym who tries to give you the beta every time you step on the wall, you know. So I definitely have that beef with it that it's these four holds, you're gonna do it this way. You've already done a similar move off of this hold to the one right next to the one you're going to now, so you kind of always know the beta.

Nate Drolet  25:57

That's fair. I, I will say this, though, where I feel like it falls short on route reading and beta finding, that's where I actually think it shines to a degree because I think I like to think of it as kind of a constructive constraint. Like, by eliminating searching for beta, you say, okay, like, I have this one hand, I have this one foot, and I'm going to that hold, how do I position myself and my body? And how do I regulate my tension and all of that to get to the next move? So it really distills 

Kris Hampton  26:28

You jump.

Nate Drolet  26:29

Every time. Jump and post it to Instagram.

Kris Hampton  26:33

No, I totally get what you're saying.

Nate Drolet  26:35

But, I mean, that said, it's like you, I mean, you kind of nailed it, though. Like a lot of these moves, you can just blindly jump through. If you're not thinking about it, you can just approach it like a campus board, really. And then it's like, I mean, at that point, are you training or are you climbing? Like,

Kris Hampton  26:52

Yeah, and the whole, you know, I agree with what you said, I hadn't really thought of it like that as a constructive constraint. But maybe it's a constructive constraint for people at a specific level. Like after you're already a, you know, V8 climber or something, you can start to focus on these things. But below that level, and that's totally a random level off the top of my head. 

Nate Drolet  27:17

Sure, yeah. 

Kris Hampton  27:18

But below that, you've still got a ton more to gain from learning new movements and learning to memorize beta and figure out beta and things like that, you know, figure out those things on your own. And, you know, V8 is probably a little far along, it's probably more like the V6 level, you could get some real benefit from just focusing on the difficulty and not so much on figuring it out.

Nate Drolet  27:45

Yeah, I think there's definitely a skill to being overwhelmed by data and options and being able to simplify from there and say, like, okay, I've seen this work before, I've seen this work before, these two options, like, I don't know if they'll work, but I'll try them out. And then the rest I know shouldn't work. Being able to do that kind of thing, like that's very much a skill, especially when climbing outside because it is, you know, especially with footholds, you know, and just like very minute options, you normally have a ton of options to choose from. 

Kris Hampton  28:16

Yep.

Nate Drolet  28:16

And it's a matter of like, Okay, what will work and like I'll test what might work and yeah, knowing what will and what won't and what's worth even trying out, that's, I think that's a very valuable skill. 

Kris Hampton  28:27

Yep. So probably, I think what we're saying there is that it's a really good physical training tool in that respect. But if you're still in those early stages of learning about beta and movement, then maybe it's not the best thing. And you know, at that point, maybe you can't even use it really. There aren't very many easy boulders on the MoonBoard.

Nate Drolet  28:51

I think the easiest one is V3 ish. Yeah, something like that.

Kris Hampton  28:58

Okay. And my my final con for the MoonBoard as a training tool is sort of a beef with the app and, and the way it's being used, in that topping boulders out is still just climbing. And I think that having the app and being able to search for the boulders that you can do, which is frankly what most people are doing, they want success. They want to be able to post it to Instagram, they look for things they can do. They film themselves doing it. At that point, you're not necessarily training anymore. You know, once you can do a boulder, most people aren't being aware enough and focusing on the details of what they're doing while they're climbing for it to be training, then it's just climbing. And honestly, any wall is a poor substitute for just climbing. That's not a knock on the Moon Board at all, that's just a knock on thinking that you're going climbing when you're going to the climbing gym.

Nate Drolet  30:08

I guess I have a question on how you're using the word training. Would you like, do you view the MoonBoard more for training or for practice?

Kris Hampton  30:18

Either way, I think I'm using the word sort of interchangeably, right now. And I think that either way, if you're just topping boulders out, then that's not necessarily, it's definitely not physical training. And for most people, it's not going to be practice either. So 

Nate Drolet  30:44

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's completely fair. I think that's just like, that's actually one of my things I have written down because I wrote pros and cons, just because, but when it comes down to it, it's a tool. Like,

Kris Hampton  30:56

Yeah, totally.

Nate Drolet  30:57

You know, it doesn't make you instantly a better climber, or anything like that. It is what you make it to be. Like, if you're a person who just goes in, into the gym, and you just like to climb volume, you're gonna get on this board, and you say, Oh, cool! 4000 boulders, like, I'm just going to keep doing like 20 new boulders a day. And it's going to be no different than if you did that on a regular wall or outside or whatever. Like, same thing, people who only like to project, they never actually have volume, they only try two, three things. Actually, one thing that I think it can be detrimental for if people aren't aware of it, or the people who will try something hard, and they say, Oh, that's too difficult. I'm gonna do something else. They can just keep swiping through boulders until they find something.

Kris Hampton  31:38

Right. Yep. 

Nate Drolet  31:40

It's funny, a buddy of mine, Jeremy told me the other day. So last time I was in Chattanooga, we were talking he was like, Yeah, I want to try and do all the V8s on the app. And at the time, when he first started, there were 400. And when he hit 250, which he was doing them fairly quickly, when he hit 250, there were 404 left. He was just like, bump this. I'm going V9. 

Kris Hampton  32:03

You could do it forever.

Kris Hampton  32:04

 Yeah, exactly. Like it's, it's endless. And so the thing is, you could very easily just keep going through and be like, Oh, no, this is difficult, like, because I have to try hard, but it's not going to make you, they could be things that you're not actually going to grow from or you actually have to like focus on or be intentional with because there are so many.

Kris Hampton  32:20

Yeah, that's something I hadn't really thought about, that I also think is, you know, a knock against it. And you basically just laid it out. But I've had this issue with commercial gyms as well, who changed their setting really often. It's a great idea for your clientele, to get new boulders that keeps people coming back in. But it also traps people at a specific grade a lot of times. They they come in, or all these new boulders this week, and they spend their nights climbing all the V6s because that's the highest level they can do in a session, and they climb them all. And then they come back the next week. And there's a whole new wall with all new V6s and they go session all those for the night. And then they come back the next week. And it's the same thing over and over and over. 

Nate Drolet  33:10

Oh, yeah, I've seen this everywhere, and like weekly turnover is pretty cool. Like, I mean,

Kris Hampton  33:14

Yeah, I have no issue with it, other than if you you can get trapped in it.

Nate Drolet  33:19

Yes. It's very easy to. I mean, because yeah, you want to go climb on new boulders like why not? 

Kris Hampton  33:24

Yeah.

Nate Drolet  33:25

 And that's something I actually caught myself doing. This was years ago when I was still living in Chattanooga all the time. And I would actually just start skipping sets. Because I was training at TBA, and they would set weekly and I would have to be like, Okay, I've got like my projects on the 45 degree wall. So when they would set the next wall, I would go in and like for my warm ups, I would do those boulders and like slowly work up. But I would then go back and project the 45 degree wall. And then when then like two weeks later when the next wall got set, I would work on that. 

Kris Hampton  33:56

Yep

Nate Drolet  33:57

Yeah. Otherwise, I would just

Kris Hampton  33:58

Yeah, I did something really similar in the gym. Same thing. And it's great because everyone migrates over to the new wall, and you're left at the old wall by yourself. And you get, it's all for you.

Nate Drolet  34:09

Oh, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  34:11

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that you could very easily get trapped in a grade in the MoonBoard for eternity, you know,

Nate Drolet  34:18

I mean, yeah. And I, you know, obviously just because it's easy to do that doesn't mean it like forces anyone into that. I just think it's, you know, it's a pothole to be aware of like, okay, like that, you know, I'm not going to allow myself to only climb on things that look great to me like it might even be like, oh, like first I'm going to do like three boulders that look awful. I look at this and like, God, this is terrible. And then like, you know, I have a fun boulder. I'm like, Yes, I'm going to flash this boulder, perfect.

Kris Hampton  34:45

Yep, exactly. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, it's definitely a valid tool. But like any other tool, you can definitely use it incorrectly. Let's go ahead and take a break.

Nate Drolet  34:57

 All right. 

Kris Hampton  34:59

What's up, everybody, Kris here, pardon the interruption. I'll keep this short and sweet. Since this podcast started taking off, and we've been growing it, you guys have been asking how you can help out. I've got three ways for you. Number one, you can become a patron. That just means you give a monthly donation to the podcast $1 and up, and you get something in return. And you can check out what those rewards are at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Best of all, we'll keep it sponsor and commercial free for you. Number two, you can rate us and review us on iTunes. I know it's a pain in the ass to go to iTunes and do all that. But it really helps us out. At least that's what I'm told by the podcast powers that be. And number three, perhaps the easiest way, and the best way to help us out is to share us on your social medias. Anytime you see us post up a new podcast, please share it with your friends, tag people who will really appreciate it, or who need to hear the advice that we're giving. All right, thank you guys. And back to the show.

Female Speaker  36:06

Topic #2: Pros and cons of the MoonBoard for the home user.

Nate Drolet  36:11

All right. So I'll go ahead and start with pros. First off the community. Just if you're climbing alone, yeah, like climbing alone is tough. And the fact that you can have that community support is pretty awesome or maybe not support, but just the fact that you can have all these different boulders to cycle through.

Kris Hampton  36:29

Yeah, I think that's pretty amazing. That is pretty cool. Unless you're like me, and you don't like people. No, actually, I really do think that's a really cool part of it. And I hadn't given that part nearly as much credit. Until I was recently talking to Jay Woo, one of the guys in The Shrine crew over in Salt Lake. And he was talking about how they all share their MoonBoard problems. And Joe Kinder was jumping in with them and sharing Moon Board problems back and forth from California, and just that they would all get so psyched on it. And that's a really cool aspect of it I hadn't really thought about. I think because the MoonBoards that I had seen were like, tucked away in the middle of nowhere, you know, where all those folks just climb with each other. And that's it. They're their own little entities. And there isn't going to be any sharing with the outside world anyway. So that's kind of how I had seen it. So yeah, I think you're right. begrudgingly, I think you're right.

Nate Drolet  37:36

So my second one, this is simply from a practical standpoint of having your own home wall. It's a simple decision. And I think you can kind of have that opinion of it's good enough. So like, a lot of times, you know, if you're looking at how earlier I mentioned, what would you put on a wall? For a lot of people, it's like, Okay, if I'm setting my own wall, what angle should it be at? What holds should I use? Should I use different companies? And it becomes overwhelming to the point where even when you have you could have a beautiful, amazing wall and you're the whole time you can be like, but could I make it better? Like if you're always think like, second guessing things like, you're not going to worry about your training as much. Like you're like, ah, but what should I be getting like the new Teknik pinches, or maybe, you know, some Kingdom holds? I don't know. But this is nice, because you just like, hey, it's gonna work. Like, I can just put this up. I don't have to think about that anymore. Like it is just checking a box. 

Kris Hampton  38:34

I think you're right there. And I hadn't really thought about that too much either. Largely, because I'm definitely a DIY kind of guy, you know, and I like to make my own choices. And, and honestly, and one of my bullet points goes to this that it's, you know, definitely a little bit expensive. You know, and maybe you're right, maybe, maybe that expense is there taking all the decision making out of it. So maybe that's part of it. But for me, the fact that it's a little over $800 just to get the holds here to the US is that's a little much for me. So,

Nate Drolet  39:12

Yeah, that's fair. All right. And my last bullet point on this one is that you don't have to set your own boulders. Like, I think that's really important. Especially what I feel like happens to a lot of people and I've been a route setter for a long time, like off and on. And I can say that whenever I was setting boulders for myself, even if I thought I was setting things that were outside of my style, to be outside of my style in a way that I was comfortable with. Like everything always, the footholds were always facing the correct direction. Like, you know, there was nothing tweaky or weird, everything was oriented in a way that like fit my body very nicely. So even if I thought it was out of my style, like everything fit me beautifully. Like, I mean, why would you intentionally set something that feels awkward?

Kris Hampton  39:58

 Sure. 

Nate Drolet  39:59

So, I think a lot of people end up setting to their strengths, even if they don't realize it until they just reinforce what they've already got without really developing anything new.

Kris Hampton  40:08

Yep, I think that's certainly true, I think that it's really hard to set outside of your comfort zone. You know, you can get just on the outside edges, but it's really hard to go way out of your comfort zone. It's something I've tried for a long, long time. And we remedied that with a, you know, the wall in The Engine Room was just holds kind of everywhere. And then everybody would collaborate and set their own problems really similar to how to how the MoonBoard works. You know, the holds are put up there, they're staying in that configuration, you just pick out your path through them. You know, and, and I think that can work as well, if you have a few friends who are climbing on your wall with you, both stronger and not as strong. My one argument with the, you know, you, you don't have to set your own problems, so that gets you out of your comfort zone is that I think two things. One is user error, because I think the people who really want to MoonBoard are the people who really climbing that style, you know, the more jumpy, latch holds kind of style. And I think that you eventually get used to those holds and that style. And, you know, there's only so many ways you can do those moves and use those footholds from that angle, you know, so after six months of climbing on the board, when it stays the same, and you're just doing everyone else's problems, you're using all those holds in the same ways over and over and over and over. So if it was, if it was more dense, if there were a lot more holds on the wall, and you had a lot more options, I think I'd be happier with it. But I think you get used to that style, because it's such a specific style, pretty quickly.

Nate Drolet  42:03

I will agree with that, as far as style goes. And this was something you had mentioned earlier, you were talking about how you feel like you needed to be in MoonBoard shape to climb on the MoonBoard. 

Kris Hampton  42:11

Totally.

Nate Drolet  42:12

 It reminds me of campus boarding in that after a handful of sessions, you really like get back in the groove of campus boarding. You're like, Oh, that's right. Like I remember how to like drive with both hands at the same time and how to like hit engaged and all these things.

Nate Drolet  42:24

 Yep

Nate Drolet  42:25

A lot of times MoonBoarding, I feel like it's very similar in that because yeah, a lot of the holds and this is something, it's one of the reasons that drove me to the MoonBoard initially, all the holds are like fairly small. Well, not small, but um, you grab them all, as crimps really. Even like the pinches and like flat edges, they all have very positive thumbs. When you're pinching something, your fingers are in a half cramp or like a full crimp position.

Kris Hampton  42:28

Gotcha.

Nate Drolet  42:32

So they're always very, you're always grabbing very aggressively. It's not that not that often that you're fully open handing anything or like, yeah, grabbing anything like a sloper or really like...everything has such a positive thumb. So you really like crimping down, crimp pinching super hard. So it is a very specific, somewhat narrow style, like which at the time, that's exactly what I wanted, because that's what I want to get better at. But I agree like, you know, you get good at jumping to positive incut edges.

Kris Hampton  43:20

Yep, totally.

Nate Drolet  43:25

Yeah, that's so that was all my bullet points for positives.

Kris Hampton  43:30

One of my my probably my biggest negatives already know where you're going with against it is something I've sort of already mentioned about we thought about it in The Engine Room is that it, for most homeowners, it just doesn't fit in their space very well.

Nate Drolet  43:45

It's a 10 and a half foot wall. 

Kris Hampton  43:47

Right.

Nate Drolet  43:48

Do you know how expensive it is to heat 10 and a half foot ceilings?

Kris Hampton  43:54

Man that hadn't even thought about that. God, how do you keep your MoonBoard room warm? Or cool in the summer? For god's sake. How do you keep sending temps in the MoonBoard room? No, it's you know, a lot of people have eight foot tall ceilings, and it just doesn't quite fit. And I think that leaves us with this quandary that when looking online and reading people's blogs about their MoonBoards, everyone has tried to solve this in a different way. And there really isn't a good way.

Nate Drolet  44:27

There's also not a uniform way which kind of ironic for a uniform board. 

Kris Hampton  44:31

Right.

Nate Drolet  44:31

And it is funny too, that if you google MoonBoard, the first thing that pops up is maybe I don't know, like 40 online forums of okay, 

Kris Hampton  44:39

How do you, how do you adjust it for the height of a normal house? 

Nate Drolet  44:42

Yeah, my walls aren't tall enough. My wife won't let me cut a hole in the ceiling or dig out the floor. What do I do? But that is what's funny is there's not really like a unified answer.

Kris Hampton  44:53

Right. Maybe we should try and get that.

Nate Drolet  44:57

Yeah, no, that'd be great. I know on Andrew Bisherat's board, he took out one of the foot rows. So he like halved the kicker board on the bottom, I believe.

Kris Hampton  45:06

I think it was different than that. 

Nate Drolet  45:08

Maybe that's what he wished he would have done. 

Kris Hampton  45:10

Yeah, I think that's what he said he wished he would have done. I think what he did is he scaled the whole thing down slightly.

Nate Drolet  45:15

Yes. 

Kris Hampton  45:15

Which, surprisingly, and I guess if you think about it hard enough, you would come up with this answer. But initially, you would think, oh, that just makes everything easier. But not quite. Sometimes it makes things harder, you know. And so it's tricky, because all those grades that are in the app no longer apply. You have no idea.

Nate Drolet  45:38

You have no sense. 

Kris Hampton  45:39

Yeah, you have no idea which side of the spectrum you're falling on at this point other than your own intuition. And, you know, that's, that's the whole point of what you're trying to get away from here is, you want something with unified grades that you can understand.

Nate Drolet  45:54

Yeah. It's the whole shared experience. I will say also, one thing that I really liked from that Bisherat did on his wall was he used the chalkboard paint. 

Kris Hampton  46:05

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  46:06

Which is a nice like, substitute for the LED. 

Kris Hampton  46:08

Yep. One of the guys we work with, Tyler, has done the same thing with his board.

Nate Drolet  46:13

Yeah, I like that. So that way, instead of having to use tape or anything, you just use chalk. So you can mark all your holds really quickly. I thought that was a really nice idea.

Kris Hampton  46:20

Yeah, I do, too. I think that's a good idea. That's my biggest gripe, I think with the MoonBoard, I wish they would have scaled it to fit into a normal person's home. But also, if it's, you know, most home wall users have space and money to build a wall. And this is the one they choose. And for me, that becomes problematic when the style is so narrow. And I know it sounds like I'm harping on the style at this point. But not necessarily. I think it's more of it's not efficient for the home user. Because it's just this one limited style. You know, so if you're going to a commercial gym as well, and you get slopers and you you know, you get big, powerful dynamic compression moves. And you know, you also get, you know, tiny little feet that you can climb on things like that, then great. Put them all at your house. If you're a you know, if you if you're a Chattanooga climber, and most of your time is spent on sandstone slopers, then the wall you put in your spare room should maybe not be a Moon wall. You know if that's what most of your if most of your goals revolve around sandstone slopers, then maybe that's not the wall you should be training on.

Nate Drolet  47:45

But do you think there's value in climbing on a different style than what you always climb on?

Kris Hampton  47:48

 Definitely, definitely. It depends on your goals. You know, if, if your goal is to send The Orb, and you choose to train on the MoonBoard, you may never reach your goal. Or you can just crimp your way through the slopers.

Nate Drolet  48:04

 I've seen that done. 

Kris Hampton  48:05

Yeah, me too.

Nate Drolet  48:08

Maybe Skeletor at Horse Pens. I can see The Orb being done with a MoonBoard training but Skeletor might be a little harder.

Kris Hampton  48:14

Yeah. Everything at Horse Pens might be a little harder.

Nate Drolet  48:18

Yeah, Skeletor is just heinous.

Kris Hampton  48:22

That's really all I got. We also we talked about the price already. I think that's, that's a little bit off putting, because I think you can order some really great, you know, for about the same price you can get Tension's wood holds, you know, and those are going to be much friendlier on your skin. And, you know, they're just really, really nice holds, and you can get a full set a full wall set of those for the same price you can get the Moon holds for. So, yeah,

Nate Drolet  48:49

I mean, you know, especially depending on what your normal schedule looks like. I mean, skin's really important. I know, especially climbing on only the original holds, up until a week ago, I had only ever split a tip once in my entire life.

Kris Hampton  49:06

 Before you went a little too far with drying agents?

Nate Drolet  49:08

Yeah, I went a little too hard with Antihydral. And yeah, I've only ever split split a tip like my actual pad once. I've split seams before but those are just they kind of happen. And it was on a MoonBoard. 

Kris Hampton  49:22

Ah, really?

Nate Drolet  49:23

Yeah. Projecting a Ben Moon 6c, which is roughly V5.

Kris Hampton  49:28

 See what you did, Ben?

Nate Drolet  49:29

Yeah, it was heinous. I know. I don't think I ever sent it either.

Kris Hampton  49:33

Well, just just for your future reference, The Power Company Podcast has an episode with Rhino Skin and you should go listen to that. 

Nate Drolet  49:41

I will. But yeah, so I mean, they are sharp and so by having more comfortable holds, or you can file your holds down. I know that's something you always did for The Engine Room. 

Kris Hampton  49:52

Yep. Yep. 

Nate Drolet  49:53

So it might be worth filing them down.

Kris Hampton  49:56

Yeah sand off the sharpness, 

Nate Drolet  49:58

Making them a little more climbable. 

Kris Hampton  50:01

Yep, and you like sharp holds. 

Nate Drolet  50:02

So yeah, normally

Kris Hampton  50:04

 Yeah, not me, man.

Female Speaker  50:07

Topic #3: Pros and cons of the trending popularity. #moonboard

Nate Drolet  50:15

First off, and you already kind of mentioned this. People are psyched on it, man.

Kris Hampton  50:18

Yeah, they are. So psyched on it. 

Nate Drolet  50:22

Yeah. I mean, 

Kris Hampton  50:23

I wish there were a way on Instagram to block certain hashtags. Because I would definitely block #moonboard. Yeah, I mean, I think it's awesome that people are stoked on it. I just don't really care what you are bouldering on inside. So I'm a little sick of it. 

Nate Drolet  50:42

That's fair. But it keeps people psyched. There's a lot of people who live in shitty places who just can't climb outside and man

Kris Hampton  50:48

No doubt.

Nate Drolet  50:49

 If you're staying psyched and healthy and amped to train, get after it.

Kris Hampton  50:53

Yeah, I can't. I really can't argue with that. I mean, it's been, it's been really fun watching training kind of blow up. When I first started the blog about training, it just wasn't very popular. And, you know, it's gotten more and more and more popular. And I mean, I, you know, Ben's helping me, essentially. I mean, that's how we're making our living. So, you know, him helping training get more popular is just helping us, so yeah, I really can't argue that there's anything wrong with it being popular.

Nate Drolet  51:31

All right. So number two that I have. And this one's a little bit of a dig to get to make this happen, but

Kris Hampton  51:40

 You're reaching already. 

Nate Drolet  51:41

Yeah. The other two are better. So the next one, videotaping yourself. A lot of people don't do this. And it's actually really beneficial. 

Kris Hampton  51:49

Aww shit, there's a pro to that? 

Nate Drolet  51:50

I know 

Kris Hampton  51:51

I hadn't even thought of this.

Nate Drolet  51:52

So obviously, like there are three different ways that people learn: kinesthetically, visually and audi...audi....audibly.

Kris Hampton  51:58

Audibly?

Nate Drolet  51:59

Audibly. I don't know why that was hard. So kinesthetically, like, obviously, you know, if you go through a move, and you say, Okay, I now understand, I now feel it. Like these are people who might do really well with power spots, or simulating a move with a bigger foot, different hands, something like that. 

Kris Hampton  52:12

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  52:12

Once they can feel it, they're like, okay, I can replicate this. And audibly you know, if someone says, Hey, like, keep your hips in, or like, really get your hips over your ankle, or like, pull down hard with your pulling hand. You know, they respond well to that. But some people are really great visual learners. And I've realized that I'm actually one of them. So for me, I can if I watch someone else do a move, I can almost always replicate it. Or even more importantly, if I have video of myself climbing, I can pick apart things so much faster than just naturally feeling it or hearing someone else say something. And I can't believe I'm even saying it, but yeah, so all these people posting videos of themselves climbing on Instagram, they have to watch themselves climb, and they're just, yeah, they're like, Oh, wow. You know, you're actually like picking apart what you're doing. Because you want to look like you're climbing better. You want you want to climb better. So that's what I got. It's actually a pro somehow. 

Kris Hampton  53:07

Yeah, I could, I could see it as a pro that way, specifically for people videoing themselves, and then rewatching it to analyze their own performance, if they're doing that. I think most people just post it up, and then watch how many times has been viewed. I think that's more important. But I think there is something of an issue that I have with the ability to have, essentially beta videos, for your indoor training problems.

Nate Drolet  53:45

I mean, nothing ridiculous about that.

Kris Hampton  53:49

I mean, I get it for outdoor climbing. If you want to get something done fast, you go, I mean, I was I was at the fucking Aircraft Carrier the other day,

Nate Drolet  53:59

Had to walk out on top of the mountain

Kris Hampton  54:00

I walked up on top to look for a video for Kat and Kate, so they could know exactly how to set the knee bar and which hand movements to make because my method didn't work for them. And so I walked to the top of the damn cliff to get service so I can watch the video and shout beta down to them below.

Nate Drolet  54:20

 I'm gonna have to give them so much shit now. They didn't mention this at all.

Kris Hampton  54:25

It was awesome. But so I get it in that situation. I don't think I like it for indoors in a training or practice environment, because then it becomes performing. And I think performing is not exactly the opposite of training, but it's pretty damn close.

Nate Drolet  54:48

It's definitely on one really far end of the spectrum. Yeah, like I'd say it's on the opposite end of the spectrum as practice.

Kris Hampton  54:54

Yeah, totally. 

Nate Drolet  54:56

Yeah I mean, I think that's fair. I guess I hadn't really thought about that. As much yeah, it's completely fair. I, you know, I think, yeah, you should have a practice mindset with these kind of things. All right. So that was my kind of shenanigans one. So, next one, I've got, I actually really like this one. It was from talking with Juliet Hammer, who was here recently, you recorded the podcast with her.

Kris Hampton  55:22

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  55:23

So she had mentioned she was using the MoonBoard, so I grilled her about it so that I can have some ammo for this. And so she's tiny, I think maybe five foot even.

Kris Hampton  55:33

Yeah, she's a little thing.

Nate Drolet  55:35

Yeah. Fairly powerful climber

Kris Hampton  55:36

Yeah with all the powers. 

Nate Drolet  55:37

Yeah. But she was saying one thing she loved about it is that as a small female, she could go on Instagram, find other small females and then she could message them and say, Hey, send me your project list or like, send me your list of

Kris Hampton  55:51

Oh that's cool. 

Kris Hampton  55:52

Yeah, of things that like you've done successfully so that she could have things because she doesn't have to go through all the things that are just way too reachy.

Nate Drolet  56:00

Yeah. 4000 boulders. I mean, the thing is, like, I have so much respect for small females in climbing. 

Kris Hampton  56:07

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Kris Hampton  56:08

Especially this season here in Hueco, shit. There's so many little girls just crushing everything, including all my hopes and dreams.

Nate Drolet  56:16

Yes. But it's awesome. Like, they're to me, they are some of the most creative climbers because they have to be like, they don't have the option of just thugging through things. So they are so creative. And man, so tenacious, it's been awesome. Especially yeah, this season, getting to see so many these women out here. And man, they pick like, fucked up hard boulders. And yeah, it'll be like, you know, one day they crush a V9 and then they are like, I'm gonna go project that V6 for the next three days, because I know, that's not my style, it's gonna make me better. And I'm just like, Fuck that. That sounds hard.

Kris Hampton  56:45

That's something I'm really impressed by by these girls around here is that, you know, like, Kat, for instance, does a V11 and, you know, in her own cynical way, downgrades it to V5. And, but then will and claim that the V4 is impossible. But she'll spend days and days on the V4 trying to make it work. You know, figure out a way to get through the gigantic move that she just can't possibly span. So yeah, it's pretty cool. 

Nate Drolet  57:19

I just skipped those things and call them bullshit. Yeah, like, that thing is stupid. It probably broke. I don't know. If I'm wearing the wrong shoes. my skin's bad. 

Kris Hampton  57:27

Your skin is bad. 

Nate Drolet  57:28

But yeah, so like, so many small females are so tenacious when it comes to climbing. So I feel like a lot of times, they could get stuck, especially on something like this. They're like, well, it's a full span reach, but I'm going to figure out how to do it. So I think it's cool for them to be able to say like, find other women be like, Oh, you're five foot as well. And you were able to do this move. Cool. Like that's inspiring. I'm gonna try this. And I know it's possible.

Kris Hampton  57:52

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. Damn you, Juliet Hammer for giving that one to Nate.

Nate Drolet  58:01

So yeah, that's that. And then my last one is... kind of goes with what I've said in the past. Um, yeah, we'll just leave it on that. It kind of goes with the whole staying psyched. Just the idea that, like, I wrote on this faith, like, if you know that it works for other people, you're like, hey, like, I can check this box, like, I know that I'm gonna get stronger on this. And you can just kind of confidently move forward. I think there's a lot to like being able to trust the system. 

Kris Hampton  58:32

Sure. So, yeah, I think that, you know, for me, part of the trend, and the this new popularity for the MoonBoard and for training, I see tons of people posting, the MoonBoard is the ultimate training tool, you know, all you need is a MoonBoard, you'll get stronger, you know, all these like these crazy claims. And they're all totally untrue. And I think that the people who are getting, some of not all the people, but some of the people who are getting psyched about training, and want to go do it on the Moon Board, just think that if I climb on a MoonBoard, I'm training, because that's they're seeing everywhere, you know. Everybody's training on a MoonBoard, and it looks exactly like going climbing in the gym. It looks just like it in all these videos. So why would anyone think that it needs to be something different? And I don't think that climbing in the gym and training are identical things. I think they're different. So I think the MoonBoard can be a good training tool. But I think that the trend might be hurting its chances as a training tool because people see it as a popular thing to do to go top out boulders on it. And that's not training. So I definitely have that beef with it. And you know, I'm a cynical dude anyway. So I have that beef with anything that's popular. So take that with a grain of salt. But that's how I see it.

Nate Drolet  1:00:11

No, I think that's fair. I mean, that's kind of like what I said earlier, that's my big beef is it's a tool. If you, you know, just because you're climbing on the MoonBoard doesn't mean you're all of a sudden going to be doing something amazing that's beneficial to your climbing. Like, you know, if you take the same mentality, the same type of approach to the MoonBoard that you do with everything else, like it's just gonna be the same as everything else on a different angle and different holds.

Kris Hampton  1:00:37

Yep, for sure. So yeah, one of my other beefs is the grade thing. Grades are confusing enough outside and I just had a, I just recorded a conversation last night with John Sherman. And we got into a great debate that got a little bit heated. And I basically, I didn't basically, I did outright accuse him of ruining climbing. And he agreed to some degree. But so grades are tough as it is, and to introduce the grading system, and the community having the ability to alter those grades, that.... I don't know, it's hard for me to stomach, that whole part of it. I'm just not a big fan. I mean, we have people, I climb this grade outside and this grade on a MoonBoard, you know.

Nate Drolet  1:01:40

I've heard that so much. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:41

We've heard it and I don't care. I don't care what you climb on a MoodBoard, you know, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you're challenging yourself. So it doesn't really matter what the grade is. Grades can be used, as, you know, a rough guesstimate of what you should be challenging yourself on. But I think it invites arguing about the grades. And I've seen way too much of it already. You know, so I have an issue with the whole graded problems and people being allowed to mess with those grades.

Nate Drolet  1:02:18

What direction do you think that that's taking things?

Kris Hampton  1:02:23

I don't know really. It's just something that doesn't sit well with me. I don't have I don't have a really good way to alter that. You know, even in the Engine Room, we used grades, and I was never comfortable with it. Todd Skinner used to use a system and I don't remember all of the levels, but it was like Hoss and Savage. And so there were like six levels

Nate Drolet  1:02:51

Choss beast

Kris Hampton  1:02:51

Choss beast. Yeah, that could have been one. BJ could tell you, I should have I should have reached out to BJ and gotten the, the levels. But those six levels, you know, had everything in the gym. And you would you would put one of those labels on a problem and that's the way it stayed. You know, there was no arguing about it. That's just what it was. If it felt different to you, it felt different, but so what, it's just a word, it doesn't equate to anything you're doing outside. You know, and I think that might be more healthy than the arguing about grades. I've seen people get down about them, because they've bouldered outside, you know, V6 and then get on a MoodBoard and just fail on V3. And they're like, Oh, I fucking suck. Can't believe this. You know, it's a it's a big downer. So

Nate Drolet  1:03:43

Yeah, I mean, and that's, I totally see where you're coming from on that. And it was interesting. 

Kris Hampton  1:03:50

And this could be a whole podcast in itself. 

Nate Drolet  1:03:51

Yeah. But just specific to the MoonBoard itself, like having climbed on it before the app. I think Adam, wish I would have pulled up Adam Strong's quote on Facebook because he had a little rant the other day. He was just like, things aren't the way they used to be. Everything used to be just like, heinous, super hard. Boulders are put up by Englishmen who hadn't climbed outside in months, because it's been raining every day. Like, and yeah, like 6c boulders or like V5 boulders are were heinous. Like, I mean, they would take me like four and five sessions. And it was messed up. And now it's like, now because it is more of a community system, like the grades have leaned away from that more so and so they're kind of all over the place. And so they definitely, I think back then, like they were consistent, just consistently really heinous.

Kris Hampton  1:04:43

Yeah.

Nate Drolet  1:04:44

And now they're just kind of like a little more all over the place. So yeah, but I guess it does change it a little bit. You know, the more people you have, I guess in one way you could think it would be consensus, but the other way also creates more variance.

Kris Hampton  1:04:56

Yeah its more argument, I think. I love the idea of consensus. I think that's great if we weren't humans, because for some reason humans can't reach that. We just want to argue it's what we do. Some of us, like me. I love to argue. So I'll argue it even if I believe it. And there's too many of me out there to ever reach consensus.

Nate Drolet  1:05:20

Yeah. And there's also people like me who, I'll be like, V10. I don't know. But I'll log it.

Kris Hampton  1:05:26

 Oh, I'm fucking I'm logging it every time. If the guidebook says it, I'm logging it.

Nate Drolet  1:05:30

Yeah. If the app says V10, I'll MoonBoard V10. Done. Yeah, I'm not downgrading my proud sends. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:38

And I've actually, you know, I know you can search via the app. At least that's what I've heard. I don't know for sure. You can search via the app for the V6s that have been done the most. 

Nate Drolet  1:05:50

Yes. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:51

So, you know, I think that leads to the same issue you have outside of people number hunting, and going out to try to do the softest boulders they can for the grade, or the softest routes they can for the grade. Because they look through the MoonBoard app, and they're like, oh, everybody's done this V6. I'm gonna do this one. And then I'm gonna post on Instagram that I just did MoonBoard V6, you know. So I think it leads to the same unhealthy problems that we are plagued with outside.

Nate Drolet  1:06:27

To play devil's advocate

Nate Drolet  1:06:29

 No way

Nate Drolet  1:06:30

 On this one. So for instance, if you look at V10s in Hueco Tanks on 8a,

Kris Hampton  1:06:35

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  1:06:36

What you'll get is

Kris Hampton  1:06:38

First off, it's too much work on 8a to look up anything.

Nate Drolet  1:06:41

You actually have to like, write your own program just to be able to search. You have to email Jens, like four or five times. Get into a forum argument with him. And then eventually, he'll tell you what the most popular V10s in Hueco are.

Kris Hampton  1:06:54

 If you set a new world record.

Nate Drolet  1:06:56

 If you set a new record. But it's I think the first ones like Fern Roof, which goes anywhere between like V10 and V7. And then it's like Loaded With Power. So like maybe two of the lower end ones. 

Kris Hampton  1:07:11

Yeah. 

Nate Drolet  1:07:11

And after that it's I think, Power of Silence and Full Service. So it jumps straight to pretty much like the two hardest, but they are the most classic.  So I think most of the things that are most done, it's not necessarily always the softest. There is definitely a quality aspect. You know, I don't know if that completely reflects over to the MoonBoard, but I mean, yeah, it makes sense. If you want to be like, Okay, which one of these do I want to do, the one that's only been done by like, some guy who climbs by himself in his basement and has never like, actually touch rock or like the one that 40 other people have done, and they all rate it five stars?

Kris Hampton  1:07:47

I don't know. If it's the Midwest, then that guy in his basement who never goes outside and never sees other humans is probably the strongest man alive.

Nate Drolet  1:07:56

Yeah, I don't want his V5s.

Kris Hampton  1:07:59

So, yeah, I you know, I I don't think it's a horrible thing that it's popular. I just think that some unhealthy things can come out of it.

Nate Drolet  1:08:12

I will say it's bad that it clogs my Instagram feed.

Kris Hampton  1:08:15

Yeah, no. Like I said, I wish there were a filter. Just filter out all MoonBoard posts. Not all of them. I like the memes. 

Nate Drolet  1:08:25

The memes.

Kris Hampton  1:08:27

 No, seriously. 

Nate Drolet  1:08:28

Alright, do you have any more cons on the popularity?

Kris Hampton  1:08:31

Any more cons on the popularity? No. I think that's it.

Nate Drolet  1:08:35

 Other than you want the MoonBoarders to stay off your lawn.

Kris Hampton  1:08:39

Yeah, stay off my lawn.

Female Speaker  1:08:42

Bonus Questions.

Nate Drolet  1:08:44

I've got a few quick, rapid fire questions for you.

Kris Hampton  1:08:46

Do I have to rapid fire answer?

Nate Drolet  1:08:47

No, you don't. They're just gonna be rapid fire questions, but you can answer as slowly as you want. 

Kris Hampton  1:08:52

Okay. 

Nate Drolet  1:08:55

All right, first, if you could 

Kris Hampton  1:08:56

Seven.

Nate Drolet  1:08:58

 Oh, no.

Kris Hampton  1:08:58

That was too quick.

Nate Drolet  1:09:00

I was trying to see if that'd be a valid answer. It's not. If you could make a single change to the MoonBoard itself, so just the board, what would it be? 

Kris Hampton  1:09:08

The board including holds and all of that? 

Nate Drolet  1:09:11

Including holds, including all of that. It just can't be like the approach to how you climb on it.

Kris Hampton  1:09:17

If I were going to make one change to it, I think my change would be that there would be more variety in the holds. So some some actual slopers, you know, some more open handed pinches. Yeah, more variety. I think I would keep the holds that are there and add more variety.

Nate Drolet  1:09:41

Yeah. All right. That's completely fair. I that's actually more or less what my exact answer was. Also, we can just skip the pockets on that. I'm kind of against pocket climbing indoors anyways, I've got these like super skinny fingers. So like yeah, I don't know for me indoor pockets always feel a little silly.

Kris Hampton  1:09:57

Yeah, I think most people are of the same thought nowadays.

Nate Drolet  1:10:01

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  1:10:02

And you dion't see them in the gym very often.

Nate Drolet  1:10:04

Yeah. And no one touches the pockets on the MoonBoard for the most part. Like, you know, they may use them for feet or like as a bump hold or like every now and then, but for the most part, they're skipped over. I would much rather have slopers or just like, big flat edges. 

Kris Hampton  1:10:18

Yep. I've seen several Instagram posts of a, I think it's one problem. It's a hard problem, and it uses a mono. And every single time I've seen someone doing that move, I see big names, saying, Oh, I just avoid that problem. I don't touch that hold, you know.

Nate Drolet  1:10:40

Yeah. Alright, so...

Kris Hampton  1:10:44

Next rapid fire question.

Nate Drolet  1:10:46

Yeah, totally fair. I will actually say I'll I would add one other thing, if, if it wasn't changing the holds it would be adding small footholds in. 

Kris Hampton  1:10:54

Oh, yeah, that's good, too. 

Nate Drolet  1:10:55

I don't know how the best method would be. But uh, yeah, I'm not a fan of the fact that it's just the checkerboard at the bottom and then a giant blank space. And then you're just globbing your feet on these giant incut edges.

Kris Hampton  1:11:07

Yep. I don't know how this would work with the app. But something we did in the Engine Room that I really liked was we had a bunch of just small foot jibs that went up, you know, a third of the way up the wall, kind of just filling in a bunch of empty spaces. And you could progress the difficulty of problems by, problem number one, the easiest version was use the feet on the kicker and tracking is allowed plus the foot jibs. Problem number two is only foot jibs no tracking, because the handholds are obviously bigger than the foot chips. And problem number three is only foot jibs, no kicker. And we actually had two different color of, we had several colors of foot chips, but we had one set on there, that was, I think, blue. And you can make it even harder by using only blue feet, you know, so. So there were several ways to progress the difficulty of the foot movements of a problem, which I thought was a really cool way to use it. 

Nate Drolet  1:12:19

Yeah, no, I hadn't heard of that before. I do like that. So that would actually, I'll let you have other holds. And I'll take foot chips of some kind, just bad ones. So next question. If you only had a MoonBoard to train on, let's say you're a weekend warrior, you sport climb. You're not close enough that you can climb outside on the weekdays. How would you approach your training?

Kris Hampton  1:12:42

Ooh, damn, I only had a MoonBoard to train on. 

Nate Drolet  1:12:46

Yep. 

Kris Hampton  1:12:47

Where do I live? Like, what's my nearest outdoor? Do I get out on the weekends?

Nate Drolet  1:12:52

I feel like we always say Red River Gorge. So let's go somewhere else. Let's say you live in Colorado. 

Kris Hampton  1:12:59

Damn it. 

Nate Drolet  1:13:00

Yeah, I'm sorry for you.

Kris Hampton  1:13:04

So do I get to go climb outside on the weekend? 

Nate Drolet  1:13:06

Yeah you can go outside, maybe like Rifle maybe I don't know Shelf, if that's a thing worth doing.

Kris Hampton  1:13:11

Yeah let's talk Rifle.

Nate Drolet  1:13:13

Yeah, let's do Rifle.

Kris Hampton  1:13:15

I think I would, I would spend my first cycle or my first phase, my first month or two months, maybe dialing in all of the problems I could do. And finding ones that I really liked and really enjoyed. So that they were a little lower intensity. And I would just get a ton of volume in and learn the style. And then I would start, boy, this hard off top of my head. So used to looking at and building it on an app now. And then I think I would have alternate days, maybe I would start with two days a week of really high intensity projecting. And the way I would warm up for that is by using the boulders that I had dialed in earlier in my previous phase, and using those for movement practice. You know, specifically tension practice. So rather than jumping, I would force myself to try and keep my feet on. Try and learn to use the footholds that are in funky orientations. You know, because that's definitely a weakness of mine is if I don't have a foothold to push down on, if I'm having to pull on it from the side or something like that with my toes, that's a little harder for me. So I would gravitate towards those problems and you know, just try to learn to use those feet in my warm ups and then go to really hard limit bouldering. And then I would have probably a day a week where I did a circuit of some sort of the easier problems. 

Nate Drolet  1:15:17

Is that when you would add in kind of the new boulders that, from the app,

Kris Hampton  1:15:23

Like the new boulders that are being done?

Nate Drolet  1:15:25

Or just in general, like, would you during that week introduce any new boulders?

Kris Hampton  1:15:30

I don't know if I would. I think I would, I think I would limit myself to the new boulders that I learned in my first phase. And then, and then just go into physical training, and deep practice sort of mode for my next couple of phases. And then, you know, take a period of just trying to perform outside with one day a week of training hard bouldering on the MoonBoard, and then I'd go back to doing more new boulders, maybe switch up my whole dialed in circuit so to speak. 

Nate Drolet  1:16:06

Okay

Kris Hampton  1:16:07

What would you do? 

Nate Drolet  1:16:08

Oh, where am I? Where am I climbing at?

Kris Hampton  1:16:13

Let's say you are in...

Nate Drolet  1:16:15

Don't say Moab. 

Kris Hampton  1:16:20

You're in Vedauwoo. 

Nate Drolet  1:16:21

Oh god. I quit rock climbing.

Kris Hampton  1:16:24

What's another good popular area? That we probably have a lot of people listening in. Let's say you

Nate Drolet  1:16:35

Could also be bouldering.

Kris Hampton  1:16:37

Yeah, it could be bouldering, couldn't it? Let's go that your I mean, you've done this. So let's talk about it. You are a Southeastern boulderer. So you're you're in the Chattanooga area. You're familiar with that.

Nate Drolet  1:16:54

Yeah. So I guess school was different with that in that I also was able to climb in the gym and like on regular boulders as well

Kris Hampton  1:17:03

Right. But now you're not. 

Nate Drolet  1:17:06

But now I'm not. So okay,

Nate Drolet  1:17:07

You work a full time job at Amazon where you never see the light of day. And don't get to speak to any other humans all day long.  Unless they're yelling at you for something. And so you're not out in time to go to the gyms. All the gyms are closed when you have free time. So you have to train on your MoonBoard in your damn cold basement. 

Nate Drolet  1:17:32

Except for its Paul Corsaro's damn cold basement because that's where I was living this winter. And that's where I trained.

Kris Hampton  1:17:37

Thanks, Paul.

Nate Drolet  1:17:39

Yeah, that sounds oddly familiar.Yeah, okay. If I was climbing outside, I guess it would depend on what I want to train for. But you know, I've always been a bit like I've spent so much time in the South that I feel comfortable with, like traditional Southern style. Like Horse Pens for me has always been like a comfort zone, where Little Rock City where it's more like hard, pulling between edges has been a lot more difficult. I'd say I'd honestly stick with what I was doing. Like, try really hard, like straightforward tictacking crimp moves. Really focus on my movement. With my warm ups, I'd circuit on the bigger bigger holds. Probably do the exact same thing what you said. This is what I did in the past was I would have a handful of boulders that I really liked, but they would be more intended as jump boulders and I would try and see just how spanned I could get. So like really pull hard with my legs, toe down in moves that would be harder to keep my feet on than jump for. And I would practice doing those, like that'd be my warmup guide circuit on like really hard crimp boulders especially because climbing outside in the South, you know you're on a lot larger holds. It is normally like more circus tricky or like just powerful climbing. So for me, I would use this not to train for climbing outside there as much as like to make myself more well rounded. 

Kris Hampton  1:19:05

Gotcha.

Nate Drolet  1:19:06

 And then when I'm when climbing outside, depending on the season, when it's like on kind of the shoulder season, so like spring and fall while it's maybe still a little bit warmer, to try and get a ton of volume in outside so that I really get comfortable that style. And then in the winter, just really focused down on what I want to try and send. And one thing I've done in the past to the MoonBoard and so let's say it is peak season, you know, it's January, it's perfect. The nice thing about the MoonBoard is because all the holds stay the exact same and there's enough variance in them like side pulls, down pulls and it's gridded off evenly enough, you can simulate moves so well on that thing.

Kris Hampton  1:19:47

Okay, yeah, I got you.

Nate Drolet  1:19:48

So if I have a specific move I want to do, what I like to do is I'll just make a slightly easier version of it. And I'll just like replicate that move and try it a bunch. Really like dial in that body positioning and I don't worry so much about like, Oh, well outside, it's a two finger pocket with like a good thumb catch and things like that. It's like, how does my body move through that space?

Nate Drolet  1:20:10

 Yeah. For me, those kind of, that kind of training has always been really beneficial as long as I take it low key enough. You know, let's say if I was trying to do the opening move of God Module, if I make a move that's even harder, and try it on the MoonBoard all week, and then I go on the weekend, like, I'm just gonna get crushed because I'm gonna be wrecked. But if I do something that's easier, I can kind of get a feel for it, although that would be a really weird one to set.

Kris Hampton  1:20:10

Right. Yep.

Kris Hampton  1:20:36

Yeah. Though, if you were gonna set the opening move of God Module, the MoonBoard is probably the best simulator for it. 

Nate Drolet  1:20:43

Yeah just smear on the blank wall.

Kris Hampton  1:20:44

 Yeah.

Nate Drolet  1:20:45

 So that's, that's how I would approach it. I would use, just because I'm comfortable with that style already, like climbing outside in the Southeast, I would use a MoonBoard to continue working my weaknesses and just be really powerful. And then on the weekends, climb a ton of volume in the seasons that aren't peak, so I can build a nice base, get really comfortable. And then in the peak season, just really focus on what I want to get done.

Kris Hampton  1:21:09

Yep. Cool. 

Nate Drolet  1:21:12

Yeah. And then so that was two? Last question. If you could make a single suggestion to people who are climbing on the MoonBoard and how they should be approaching their climbing, what would it be?

Kris Hampton  1:21:29

I have to narrow this down to one? Shit. Okay. I think that what I would tell people to do is to not. and this goes for almost everyone in the gym, but specifically the MoonBoard, because it's well, because that's what we're talking about here. And because it definitely does lend itself to a really particular style. I would say, don't just allow yourself to jump and send boulders. I think if you want to do the boulder that way, if you want to send it great. Take your video. Post it up on the Instagrams. But then go back and force yourself to do it better, to keep your feet on. Sometimes jumping is the answer. You know, sometimes that's the way but you can't know that if that's the way you always do it. You have to go through and learn to do it with body tension, keeping your feet on that as best you can. Before you can make the judgment that cutting your feet is the most efficient, best way to do it. So that's what I would tell people. Don't be satisfied with how you do it the first time and then move on. Instead, try to make it better.

Nate Drolet  1:22:51

Yeah, I like that. I mean, that's, you know, something we both argue or not argue, but we talk a lot about in our clinic is 

Kris Hampton  1:22:59

We preach it for sure.

Nate Drolet  1:23:01

 Yeah, the top isn't always the goal. Like you're not just going for completion points. If you're outside, by all means completion points. But yeah, in your training, and you just get in your practice, like, and this is, this is what my recommendation would be move like you care. Like, you know, don't just pull on and, like knowing how to try hard is very important. That's a very important skill to have. But if all you ever do is go down, knuckle down, go in, like knuckle down and just jump between edges, like, are you really getting better? And also, I mean, frankly, if your feet can cut on every single hold, like, is it really that hard? 

Kris Hampton  1:23:38

Right.

Nate Drolet  1:23:39

Like, I mean, yeah, it's like it probably feels strenuous and difficult, but I don't know, I don't, yeah, outside, like, there aren't that many boulders where I can dead hang every single position on an entire boulder and complete it. Like, for me, that was actually a huge. I actually remember when that switch started to happen. Because for the longest time, like when I would be doing these big moves. I would like you know, when I first started climbing, I would like go for these moves and I'd like try and hit a hold and I'd fall. And then I'd be like, Oh, this is ridiculous. Because I could just like grab the hold and do a pull up on them. Like, you know, I can hang these holes. I just like can't reach up and slap to them. And now it's like, man, there's times a lot of times I have to have someone else like boost me into them, just so I can get on the wall and then do the next move. Like the fuck if I can't even dead hang these holds. I can barely pull on with like both hands and a foot.

Kris Hampton  1:24:29

 Right. Yeah, you have to have all your body tension working just to stay in positions.

Nate Drolet  1:24:34

Yeah. And a lot of, exactly. And like there's a lot of moves that like I have to climb into them just so that like my I can recruit that body tension. 

Kris Hampton  1:24:42

Yep. 

Nate Drolet  1:24:43

So yeah, I think you know, if you're always just climbing on moves that you can jump between, I just don't think that's that applicable. So my recommendation is move like you care. Like, really pay attention to what you're doing, like do moves that challenge you in different ways. Like you should be doing moves that if your feet cut, you're off.

Kris Hampton  1:25:02

Yep, totally. And I like that, I think we're gonna have to use that phrase move like you care. I like it. So you guys will be seeing that more and more and more, maybe clogging up your Instagram feeds.

Female Speaker  1:25:16

Closing Statements

Kris Hampton  1:25:18

Yeah, you know, I think that I think that the the MoonBoard is a good tool. I won't argue that it's a bad tool. I think that if it's used as such, then it's, then it's definitely a really good training tool. The problem is that most people aren't using it as such. I think most people are just using it due partly to the trending popularity, that rewards topping boulders, which is performance. I think that people are using it as a performance tool. And that's not a training tool necessarily. And, you know, I think it's a really effective tool for the dedicated, focused user. And more common though, I think it's used as a poor substitute for real rock climbing. And I think that you should just go rock climbing more, if that's what you're looking for. I'm a real I'm a fan of the idea, the concept. Again, I know I sound like I'm harping on this, but it's, it's being destroyed by its own popularity, I think, at least its effectiveness for most people, and the need to sell it, which I totally understand, you know, hype it up, sell it, I totally get it. I'm in the same boat sometimes. So I understand the issue. But for me, frankly, I'd rather have a good you know, a good old woody with the, just a bunch of random holds and people can come through and set problems and you know, it's a more intimate thing for me so I think that's that's the way I would go. While I'm definitely excited to climb on the MoonBoard some this you know, this summer and this winter when I'm in Lander there's one in Lander at the Junkers' house and I'm, I'm stoked to go over there and climb on it. For me, the woody will always be the better option. And, and real boulders, man can't forget about those. Yeah. So that's my rambling, closing thought. All right. How about you?

Nate Drolet  1:27:32

Man I like to have when it comes down to it, it's a tool, like, just like anything else. It's only as good as what you put into it. And so I think for a lot of people, it can be really beneficial if they're focused enough. And that's what it really comes down to, like, if you know what you need to work on, I think you can really get a ton out of this tool. Yeah, it definitely has its flaws, just about everything well, but I think for a lot of people, it can be really great, especially for people who climb alone, or they're very isolated. Or for instance, they just only climb in one area like you know, if you only climb at Rifle or only climb at Smith or the Red. Yeah, this is nice, because it changes it shows you things that you may not have known. Like, they'll have different types of climbing styles. So yeah, I think I think it's a work in process. And especially, I think anything that's moving this fast will always have growing pains, but I'm really excited to see where it goes. 

Kris Hampton  1:28:28

Yeah, me too. I am. I am. I'm excited to see what he comes up with next and yeah. Cool.  All right.

Kris Hampton  1:28:41

Okay, as I mentioned earlier, I took this conversation. I sent it over to Ben Moon and and then we Skyped in so that I could get Ben's opinions on on our conversation. Hey, Ben, can you hear me?

Ben Moon  1:28:58

I can. Yeah. Can you hear me? 

Kris Hampton  1:29:00

Oh, yeah. Gotcha. Perfect.

Ben Moon  1:29:02

Does that sound alright? 

Kris Hampton  1:29:03

It does. That's great. How was how was France?

Ben Moon  1:29:07

Oh, yeah, it was great. Really good. Oh, yeah. Wish I was still out there.

Kris Hampton  1:29:11

Yeah, I bet. Weather was good?

Ben Moon  1:29:14

You had a couple of rainy days, but yeah, generally it was good. Didn't stop us climbing. So yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:29:19

Yeah. For sure. Forces you to rest anyway.

Ben Moon  1:29:22

Say again? Oh, force you to rest. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:29:25

Yeah. Cool. How long are you out there like a week?

Ben Moon  1:29:28

Yeah, like in nine days in total. So climb for about seven days, I think and a couple of rest days.

Kris Hampton  1:29:34

Oh, nice. That's the

Ben Moon  1:29:35

We climbed at a place called St. Legere, in Provence. Which is, yeah, I mean I climbed there like 10 years ago for like, a few days, but there's just so much there. It's just like massive.

Kris Hampton  1:29:47

Oh cool. Is it mostly steep stuff?

Ben Moon  1:29:50

Yeah, I mean, it's probably, not much easy stuff. So like, sort of French sort of sevens and above really. So high sixes and sevens and eights really is what it's good for. But yeah, a lot of steep stuff, big caves and tufas and well pretty varied really. Lots of different stuff. But yeah, generally fairly steep.

Kris Hampton  1:30:09

Yeah, I thought I'd seen a bunch of photos that showing that it was pretty steep. It looks amazing out there.

Ben Moon  1:30:15

They are all pretty long as well. So I think there's some sort of 20 meter routes, but most of its, you know, 20 to sort of 35 meters. So yeah, it's good.

Kris Hampton  1:30:24

Have you just run out of stuff in your home area? Is there more for you?

Ben Moon  1:30:28

Oh it's a bit depressing back here. I mean, it's there's some good routes in sport climbing in the UK, but compared to Europe, it's really not got a patch.

Kris Hampton  1:30:36

 Yeah, yeah. 

Ben Moon  1:30:37

So yeah, there's stuff to do here. But it's, it's it's hard and not super good quality for me, but yeah, definitely got some unfinished business here.

Kris Hampton  1:30:49

Oh, good. Good. It's good to have that keep you motivated.

Ben Moon  1:30:54

Are you still in Hueco?.

Kris Hampton  1:30:55

I am. Yeah, Nate had to leave a little early. But I'm still here with my fiancee Annalissa. And we're here for just a couple more days. And then we're out. We've been here a month and a half. So it's been a good trip. 

Ben Moon  1:31:08

Yeah. Get some stuff done?

Kris Hampton  1:31:10

Yeah. It's my first trip to Hueco. So it's okay. It's really fun. I've never been much of a boulderer but trying to learn.

Ben Moon  1:31:17

Yeah. What's it like these days with the sort of guiding stuff?

Kris Hampton  1:31:21

You know, it's not as bad as everybody says. It's, it's pretty simple. And actually, it's pretty empty. You know, there's, there's not been a single day that, that we didn't have reservations and were turned away. Like every day we want to get in and there's plenty of spots to get in. And during the week, it's a ghost town around here. So it's kind of nice. 

Ben Moon  1:31:46

Yeah, sounds good. 

Kris Hampton  1:31:48

Yeah. So did you have a chance to listen to the episode? 

Ben Moon  1:31:52

I did. Yeah. I thought it was good. Yeah. It's interesting. It's fun listening to and thinking, I want to say stuff, but anyways. Yeah. It was good.

Kris Hampton  1:32:04

Okay. I got a couple of quick questions for you. Before we kind of get into the three main topics that Nate and I talked about.

Ben Moon  1:32:10

Yes. 

Kris Hampton  1:32:12

First question, what, what do you think is the best way for homeowners to kind of scale their board when it doesn't fit? Is there a preferred method?

Ben Moon  1:32:22

Yeah, I thought you might ask that. And I was just discussing that with a couple of guys who I work with and stuff. I personally think and I mean, I like having a bit of a kickboard. So well, I just got an email the other day from a woman who wanted to fit it into a nine foot high room. And I just did some simple maths and everything. And I think you need to because we work in metric over here, I think you need to lose about 41 to 50 centimeters off the current MoonBoard. So personally, I would chop the kickboard. Chop, take 10 centimeters maybe, off the keyboard. So that's about six inches, I suppose. And then I would probably try and work out how much you need to reduce the spacing between each row of T nuts. There's 18 rows of T nuts on a MoonBoard, I think it'd be good to keep all of those 18 rows, but just reduce the spacing. So for example, if you reduce the spacing by an inch across those 18 rows, you know, you've reduced it by 18 inches overall. Now, obviously, that's at an angle. So I don't know how that affects the height, it presumably needs a bit of geometry, but that's what I would do. 

Kris Hampton  1:33:33

Okay yeah, and that makes sense. Because if you're coming out with another set of holds that's gonna fill the board, then you definitely don't want to lose a row.

Ben Moon  1:33:40

I dont' think you want to lose rows. And you know, if you lose, like, you know, a couple inches between each rows, it yeah, it's just going to make the problems a bit easier. But you're still going to have, you know, you're still going to be able to climb the problems, you know, kind of like they were set. I mean, the other thing you could do is you could just tweak the angle a little bit, make it a little bit steeper, maybe make it 45 degrees, as opposed to 40 degrees. 40 degrees, that will gain you a little bit. I mean, the MoonBoard that I've got at the School Room is actually on an adjustable winch. And I haven't played around a little bit with the angle. And because the holds most of the holds are pretty positive, a few degrees actually doesn't make that much difference to the grade of the problem, to the greatest some of the problems anyway. So yeah, that's what I would do, I would reduce the kickboard and then reduce the spacing, and maybe make it a little bit steeper.

Kris Hampton  1:34:30

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good compromise. And, and I think if you're, you know, if you're stronger, maybe making it steeper is a better option. And if you're, you know, if you're on the lower end of the grades on the MoonBoard, then maybe crunching it down a little bit and trying to fit it in at the at the same angle is a better option. So,

Ben Moon  1:34:49

Yeah, yeah, that's what I think.

Kris Hampton  1:34:52

Okay. And quick question about the new holds that you guys are coming out with. Will the next wall set require having all the new holds?

Ben Moon  1:35:03

Well, no. The next the next setup will be. So there's obviously 140 holds, existing holds. And there's 198 T nuts on a MoonBoard. So the next setups going to be 50 new resin holds, 32 new wooden system board holds and then the rest, I think, but it's about 100 well, it's almost all of the existing 140 holds, I think less about 20. 

Kris Hampton  1:35:35

Okay. So the next setup will have the new holds on it.

Ben Moon  1:35:42

Yes, it will. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:35:43

Okay. Why did you decide to go partly wood?

Ben Moon  1:35:47

Um, well, I've been climbing on some wooden, well, we had wooden holds on training boards, we,the first training boards we built years years ago had wooden holds on them. And I've just been working on some arranging wooden holds for the MoonBoard, just because I thought it'd be nice to have a, you know, a set of wooden holds on the Moon Board. And, well, they're actually system holds. Because there's like 16 unique shapes. And they both got their they've got each got their mirror image.

Kris Hampton  1:36:15

Right.

Ben Moon  1:36:16

 But they're a little bit different to the sort of system board holds that I've seen out there, which tend to be very sort of geometrical shapes. These are more like climbing holds. Resin climbing holds, but they're made out of wood. Made out of plywood. And they're CNCed and they're really nice to climb on. We've had them on up at the School Room for the last six months. So yeah, just thought it mix it up a little bit.

Kris Hampton  1:36:37

Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those. I really like climbing on wood.

Ben Moon  1:36:41

Eventually, you know, maybe in a couple years time, you know, I could see having a normal wood setup on the MoonBoard. And but the one of the reasons the MoonBoard is working so well, at the moment, I think, and why there's like, you know, 5000 problems on there is because we have that, just that one setup. So everyone around the world is working off the same setup, adding, adding problems to that setup. As soon as we start, if we dilute the setups and have lots of different setups, you're just splitting everyone. They'll  be climbing on different setups, and I don't think it'll work so well.

Kris Hampton  1:37:12

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that's one of the cooler aspects of it is that everyone gets to climb on the same wall and can see what everyone else is doing on the same wall. So

Ben Moon  1:37:22

Yes, so I don't want to sort of do things too quickly. And you know, there's no, you know, I have a plan to bring out these these new 50 resin holds, but there's no plan to bring any more resin holds, you know, I think. Not in the near future anyway.

Kris Hampton  1:37:35

Okay, so it's not gonna be like, new holds every set that people have to buy?

Ben Moon  1:37:39

No, definitely not.

Kris Hampton  1:37:40

Okay cool. That's good to hear. One last question before we kind of dive in here. You're having a 25 degree board and a 40 degree board and the new freestanding wall goes to both angles, right?

Ben Moon  1:37:54

Yeah, that's right. Um, yeah, you talked about that? Yeah. So the freestanding one can be set at either 25 or 40. But it has to be it has to be, it's not an adjustable wall, it has to be built either at the 25 or the 40. 

Kris Hampton  1:38:07

Okay, so you can't change it between the two, you just keep it at one.

Ben Moon  1:38:10

 You can't change between not without taking it down, which is like a two person job, you know, for half a day or something. So it's not fully adjustable. It's too complicated.

Kris Hampton  1:38:19

Gotcha. So when you come out with the 25 degree, MoonBoard, is it going to be the same wall setup as as the 40 degree board?

Ben Moon  1:38:29

It would be the same setup, yeah. So yeah, each problem, existing problem could be then climbed again at 25 degree.

Kris Hampton  1:38:37

Okay. And then are you going to have, you know, grades adjusted in the app for whichever angle you're on?

Ben Moon  1:38:43

The grades will adjust in the app, exactly. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:38:45

Cool. I think that'll be a good feature for people. You know, not everybody's outdoor climbing is, is as steep as 40 degrees. Most people's is probably closer to 25. So

Ben Moon  1:38:55

Yeah, I agree.

Kris Hampton  1:38:56

Cool. Awesome. You want to dive into the three topics? Or do you have any, anything else you want to talk about?

Ben Moon  1:39:03

Um, no, not really. I mean, yeah, there was a few things I noticed you mentioned. Well, one of the things was the price of the holds. 

Kris Hampton  1:39:11

Okay. 

Ben Moon  1:39:11

I know, people have commented on that. And I actually think they're really good value for money. You know, they're like $600, approximately about $600 for 140 holds, which is well, less than $5 per hold, which is probably comparable in price to other holds out there. But the thing with the MoonBoard holds is that, you know, they're supported by the MoonBoard and the app and everything. So you're getting a lot more than just a basic hold. Yet the price of the holds are comparable to, you know, other holds out there that, you know, aren't supported by like a database of 5000 problems. So yeah, I just want to say I thought they're really good value for money. I know shipping is a bit bit high. But again, even with the shipping, I still think they actually do represent pretty pretty good value for money.

Kris Hampton  1:40:01

Yeah, I agree with you. I think that, you know, I did a price breakdown of a bunch of other companies as well. And with the shipping, it comes in at about the same, the same level as a lot of the higher end holds in the US if we were to buy them here. So and then you're right, you get, you know, you get the MoonBoard, you get the community, you get the app, you get all those set problems already. So they do come in about the same after shipping. So, yeah, I don't I don't think they're, uh, you know, I don't think they're a rip off by any means. So I didn't want it to sound like that.

Ben Moon  1:40:43

That's fine. Yeah. Which is one other thing actually, I think, number of MoonBoards in the US I did I say, 1000? I thought I said, worldwide it was like, 1000 plus.  I didn't think I said 1000 in the US.

Kris Hampton  1:40:55

Okay, I might have been, I might have been confused then.

Ben Moon  1:40:58

Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's 1000 plus worldwide, not 1000 in the US.

Kris Hampton  1:41:02

Okay, gotcha, gotcha. That sounds more like what I would have expected at this point. But you know, you guys are exploding. So who knows? That could be all over the place

Ben Moon  1:41:13

Yeah its grown over the past year.

Kris Hampton  1:41:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. I'm more than anything. I'm, you know, even though I'm definitely averse to having, you know, the same post on my, on my social media feeds all the time, which is a great thing for you guys.

Ben Moon  1:41:29

Well, it's nothing to do with me that is it?

Kris Hampton  1:41:31

No, not at all. But people are loving it. So 

Ben Moon  1:41:34

People out there, so. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you got to remember also that I've been doing the MoonBoard for about 10 years now. So you know, it's taken a while to sort of really get going.

Kris Hampton  1:41:46

Yeah. Was it surprising to you that just kind of jumped off recently like that?

Ben Moon  1:41:50

No, not really, you know, once, you know, once we developed the app, and we we change, we got we, you know, we built a new website, and we put that new set up, I could see that it was gonna make a massive difference. You know, just having everyone climbing on the same setup. Initially, we had a lot of people complaining that we had archived all the old setups, but within like, a few weeks, you know, obviously, people had reset their MoonBoards to the new setup and started like climbing problems. And yeah, you know, it's worked really well.

Kris Hampton  1:42:20

Yeah. You know, one of my, one of my initial issues with it was there was no standard set up. Like, if you wanted to climb a specific problem, you might have to reset your wall to the way that set was done, climb through those problems, and then reset your wall again.

Ben Moon  1:42:37

Yeah, exactly. 

Kris Hampton  1:42:38

I like the idea of having it set up the same way for a long time. That's the that's the style I prefer on a woody anyway. So yeah, it works well with the MoonBoard.

Ben Moon  1:42:47

Yeah. Well, I think that's one of the one of the good things. I mean, yeah. One other thing I was gonna comment on, was the grades thing.

Kris Hampton  1:42:55

 Yeah, 

Ben Moon  1:42:55

I can do that now or later, or whatever. But yeah, I was just gonna say, yeah, because you both, you discussed the grades issue. And, yeah, I mean, all I would say about grades is, and it's the same sort of whether you're training indoors or outdoors, I mean, you might not like or agree with them, but I do think they are, like, you know, a necessity really. 

Kris Hampton  1:43:17

Yeah.

Ben Moon  1:43:18

 And, particularly on the MoonBoard, and with the sorts of elements that we're working on. I mean, the grade is basically just an in sort of a measure of intensity, really. And all training, you know, is about sort of intensity and volume and everything. So, you know, you do need grades on on the MoonBoard. And, you know, we've introduced this benchmark, benchmark problems, which, you know, are, you know, basically benchmark problems at certain grades, okay, with you to people get to be able to use those benchmarks, you know, to work out what level they are climbing on the MoonBoard, and then, you know, tailor, you know, training programs MoonBoard training programs based on their their benchmarks. So

Kris Hampton  1:44:03

Cool, I wasn't aware that those existed. Can you just can you look through the app and just find the benchmarks?

Ben Moon  1:44:09

Yep. There's  about 40 benchmark problems from 6b+ up to 7c.

Kris Hampton  1:44:14

Okay. 

Ben Moon  1:44:15

And they're sort of what we think are sort of benchmarks at the grade. Yeah,

Kris Hampton  1:44:19

I think that's good to have, you know, I, I tell all my clients who are climbing outdoors in the areas that I'm familiar with, what I think the benchmarks are in those areas that they should they should go climb those things so that they feel like they can be fairly solid at that grade.

Ben Moon  1:44:35

Yeah, well, yeah, that's great. And yeah, like I agree with you out, climbing out having benchmarks outside is good thing. Yeah, I mean, again, you touched on it a little bit in your in your podcast, but yeah, climbing walls, obviously they change their, their routes every, you know, four to six weeks. So you don't have any benchmarks on climbing walls to measure yourself. And you know what, we've had, at the School Room, we've got the same sort of training board that we've had for 20 years. You know, and you know, you can use all the problems as benchmarks to see how you're doing. And, you know, it's the same with the MoonBoard now. You know, you've got benchmarks on there, to, you know, see how you're progressing and everything.

Kris Hampton  1:45:17

Yeah, definitely. I think that's a good idea. Well, let's dive into this really quick then. And, you know, we may have talked about some of these things already. But just in case, there are some things that pop into your head. Topic #1 was the pros and cons of the MoonBoard as a training tool. You have any notes or thoughts on what Nate and I said in there?

Ben Moon  1:45:39

No, I haven't made any notes. But I mean, yeah, all I would say is that, yeah, the Moon Board is kind of based on, you know, the old training boards that we used to climb on at the School Room. So they're just a very simple, flat, paneled bouldering wall with very simple holds on it. And, you know, I personally think that, I mean, I think that's the best form of strength training really for climbing. And so, yeah, I think the MoonBoards are very effective, effective strength training tool.

Kris Hampton  1:46:10

Yeah,

Ben Moon  1:46:11

You know, that's probably all I would say about that. I mean, you know, there's lots of, there's lots of ways to train for climbing, and there's tons of different equipment and different exercises you can do and everything, but I still think, you know, bouldering is, you know, the best form of training really. And I think bouldering on something like a MoonBoard, you know, which is fairly basic, is the best form of training really. You know, a lot of the climbing walls these days, they go for a sort of a, you know, a comp style problem. Lots of big volumes, heel hooks, funky, funky moves and everything, which, I mean, obviously, it depends what you're training for. But you know, personally, I'm trying to do stuff outside and find something like the MoonBoard, or those basic training boards more applicable to climbing outside, then, you know, the comp style problems, really? 

Kris Hampton  1:47:06

Yep. Yep. Man, I'm glad you said it, you know, depends on what you're training for. You know, if you're training for the roofs here in Hueco that have tons of heel hooks and toe hooks and things like that then, you know, the MoonBoard is not the most effective tool, but like you said, it's a it's a tool, and it is a really great tool for that specific style, I think. What's your take on slopers? Like having big slopers? The moon board doesn't really have any, so I'm just curious. What's your take?

Ben Moon  1:47:34

Yes, um, I think that would be probably hard to do on the MoonBoard. The new range of 50 holds does have some slopers on it, and some pinches and stuff, some really nice ones. But the MoonBoard's only a small training board, and I think it's an it's set at 40 degrees. I think it's going to be.....yeah, a little bit limited maybe for slopers, possibly.

Kris Hampton  1:48:05

Okay. Okay. And that's, you know, I think, honestly, that's something that gyms, especially in the US are setting more and more and more with, you know, I think the the amount of sloper problems in gyms in the US is far above the fingery problems. So if you're going to a commercial gym, you get plenty of slopers. And I think you're right, the fingery nature of the MoonBoard is, you know, a really great training tool for outside. How does your, how do your training sessions look, if you're on a MoonBoard? Is it you know, how often do you send hard problems versus just work on them?

Ben Moon  1:48:45

Well, to be honest, I, I mean, I don't send that many hard problems in training very often. Because, well, I'm following like, sort of training program. And most of the sort of training I do is like some form of interval training, and it'll be below my sort of maximum level. So it's more sort of volume based, I would say. So I'd say the hardest I sort of send on a MoonBoard is probably 7c+, but I'd say it's more around sort of around the 7b+ to 7c range.

Kris Hampton  1:49:22

Yeah, and you're training for sport climbing right now.

Ben Moon  1:49:24

I'm training for sport climbing, yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:49:26

Yeah. Okay, what if you are training for bouldering? Just throw some things out there.

Ben Moon  1:49:31

If I was training for bouldering then, you know, do a lot more limit bouldering, which I don't really sort of do at the moment. So it's again, I'd still do sort of interval training, but probably maybe, like 80% of my max or something. But yeah, I'd probably warm up. You know, maybe do 10 to 15, warm up problems and then project for you know, 45 minutes or something and then leave it at that really.

Kris Hampton  1:49:40

Okay, cool. Yeah, that's a good answer. Any other thoughts on it as a, as a training device? And I mean, I think you stated your opinion. So,

Ben Moon  1:50:10

Um, well, I think it's got a lot of potential.

Kris Hampton  1:50:15

 I agree. 

Ben Moon  1:50:16

So developments that we're working on the interval timers, and the benchmarks, and putting that all together into some kind of package, I think could be really beneficial to the MoonBoard users and coaches as well. You know, we're looking well, we're looking at basically, the lists feature, I think is really nice in the app. So you can create lists of problems. So they could be benchmark problems or problems at a certain grade. And then you can apply a timer to those problems. So then it will just scroll through those problems. So it's effectively, you know, you're creating, like a training routine for yourself. You know, and I don't see why coaches couldn't create a training routine, and then send that to their clients and stuff like that. So

Kris Hampton  1:51:03

Yeah, I think I think that's gonna be a pretty great feature.

Ben Moon  1:51:07

There's a lot of possibility there.

Kris Hampton  1:51:09

Yeah. The, we kind of talked about the pros and cons for the home user. And you know, you gave us your opinion on the best way to fit it into a smaller area. We talked about the price. Let's just unless you have any thoughts on that, we can move on to the the trending aspect of it.

Ben Moon  1:51:29

Yeah, let's move on to that.

Kris Hampton  1:51:31

Okay. And we definitely touched on this, that you weren't really surprised, because you guys were sort of building it in that direction. And I think that's great that you took those steps. I know it, it kind of seemed from the outside, like it was just sort of languishing there, and no one was, was catching on to what this great concept was. Keeping up with this trend, are you afraid that it could get watered down at all?

Ben Moon  1:52:04

Well, no, I mean, I hadn't really considered that until I listened to you two speaking but I don't know. I mean, that's just the way of the world, isn't it now. I mean, the internet's changed everything really, well it's changed a lot of things in climbing. I mean, you know, 15-20 years ago, you know, it didn't really exist. But I mean, people, you know, people go to Fontainebleau and they want to climb problems, they just look online for sequences, and, you know, watch people climb problems, and then go and do the, you know, do the problems. And, you know, it's the same with the MoonBoard, really. I suppose is, you know, people, you know, filming themselves doing problems, and then, you know, posting it to Instagram or whatever. And, yeah, I don't know, I think, yeah, doesn't bother me really. I think it's nice. And, you know, I use you know, often look at MoonBoard Instagram posts to see how someone's climbed a problem, see if they did it the same way as me or whatever.

Kris Hampton  1:53:06

Okay, and you guys don't have any plans to sort of, you know, make it more accessible to the, you know, V1, V2 climber, not that there's anything with being wrong with being a V1, V2 climber, but I think as a as a more advanced training tool, you know, with limited space, if you started putting big enough holds on there for V1 and V2, you'd end up watering it down. So, just curious.

Ben Moon  1:53:30

There's no plans for that at the moment. No.

Kris Hampton  1:53:32

Okay. So the new sets are going to be fairly difficult holds as well.

Ben Moon  1:53:35

That said, I would say there's there's a few more bigger holds on there, definitely. 

Kris Hampton  1:53:40

Okay.

Ben Moon  1:53:40

 We definitely conscious decision. Whether that's going to allow problems below 6b+ , Font 6b+, on the MoonBoard, I'm not not sure. 

Kris Hampton  1:53:50

It'll certainly help with warming up I think.

Ben Moon  1:53:53

Yeah, definitely. It'll be warming up a bit. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:53:54

Yeah. Okay. Any other thoughts on the the trend of the popularity of it? I mean, you guys must be working your asses off over there.

Ben Moon  1:54:05

No, not really. No, I mean obviously I'm, I'm very happy about it. I mean, I just I'm not sort of, I don't really still feel like I've publicized that much. You know, it's just sort of happened naturally really and I'm psyched about that.

Kris Hampton  1:54:20

Yeah, I'm psyched for you. I mean, huge congratulations on that. It's, it's cool to see somebody putting a really valid training tool out there that that people are catching on to the way they are with the MoonBoard. You did say something early on in our emailing when I told you that, that I was going to be arguing against the MoonBoard. In our conversation you sent me a quote to read if we couldn't get you on the podcast. In it you say, "The MoonBoard is no silver bullet and should ideally be used in conjunction with other climbing training systems. However, if you believe as I do, that bouldering on a basic angled training board is the single best thing you can do to improve your climbing level than building a MoonBoard will be a big step on the road to fulfilling your potential. " And I think that's a huge statement. And I think it's great that you didn't say, the MoonBoard is the only tool you need. Just buy the MoonBoard, you know, that you said it's just part of a bigger system. So talk to me a little bit about that.

Ben Moon  1:55:25

Yeah, well, I'd like to think I'm sort of fairly honest person. And, you know, we wouldn't want to sort of mislead anyone about anything. And yeah, I think, you know, what, you just read out there that what I wrote you, yeah, I stand by that. And, you know, the MoonBoard isn't, like, you know, silver bullet, but, you know, and, and, you know, if you really want to get good at climbing, you need to probably, yeah, well, you need to work very hard, but, you know, follow follow some kind of structured training program. You know, and, you know, I do a lot of bouldering, not just on the MoonBoard, you know, I climb at, you know, The Foundry climbing wall in Sheffield, and, you know, other boards at the School Room, you know, I do deadhanging and campus board, and, you know, do some ring stuff. So, you know, I'm doing a lot of different stuff. So and, you know, they're all good, but yeah, I probably would say, as I said, already said that I do think bouldering is probably, you know, the single best thing you can do. I mean, it's very time consuming training, and there is tons of different stuff out there are tons of different bits of kits, you can you know, train on. And, you know, no one, very few people have the time to do all of those things. So you've got to give up certain things. But the last thing I would probably give up is not so hard bouldering on some kind of, you know, flat panel training board, like the MoonBoard, I think that's the best, you know, best thing you can use really.

Kris Hampton  1:56:52

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And when I was, you know, initially preparing to do this podcast, and was coming up with why I was going to be against the MoonBoard. You know, it occurred to me that I'm one of the few people out there, I won't say the few people, but I know a lot about training, and I can, I can sort of dial down what I need to do and what all is just superfluous things that I don't really need in my training program. But a lot of people out there can't do that. They get tons and tons of information. And there are so many different ways to train and so many tools to use for training that, that it just becomes this, you know, impossible seed to wade through. But something like the MoonBoard is, you know, it's a pretty simple tool that it's tough to really go wrong. You could use it better, I'm sure. But it's tough to go wrong with it. So, I'll definitely concede that.

Ben Moon  1:57:56

Yeah. I mean, no, I totally agree. I mean, it training generally is just incredibly complicated. And like you say, there is a lot of information out there now, way more than there was 20 years ago. And, yeah, it's, it can be overwhelming at times.

Kris Hampton  1:58:12

Yeah. And some of it's conflicting information, you know,

Ben Moon  1:58:14

Yeah exactly. 

Kris Hampton  1:58:15

But the one thing I think everyone agrees on is exactly what you said that just hard bouldering on, you know, a few moves at a time really hard moves is definitely the the best training you can do.

Ben Moon  1:58:27

Yeah, it's very versatile as well. Bouldering in general, you know as a form of sort of training, because, you know, you can, you know, you can just vary the intensity of what you're doing. And you know, that changes everything really. So, you know, it's great for sort of, you know, strength, but you know, likewise, it's good for strength, endurance, and even endurance. And so, yeah,

Kris Hampton  1:58:51

Yep. Okay. Any any other points you wanted to make while I've got you on here?

Ben Moon  1:58:57

No, I think that that's probably about it really. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:59:01

Okay. Well, you know, I certainly appreciate you taking the time out to talk to us. And I appreciate all the years of inspiration for training that you've brought to all of us. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, you know, that's the the School Room is kind of the holy grail of training. So I love what you guys did there.

Ben Moon  1:59:23

Yeah, well, thanks for doing this whole podcast as well. You know, it's, yeah, it's great. 

Kris Hampton  1:59:29

Okay, well, yeah. Thanks for being on Ben. I appreciate it.

Ben Moon  1:59:33

Okay, cheers, Kris.

Female Speaker  1:59:36

Thanks for listening to this episode of Devil's Advocate from The Power Company Podcast, brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Subscribe on iTunes, Google Play or your favorite podcast app. And please share us on your social medias. You can find us on the Facebook's the Pinterest and the Instagrams. Wait, why are we on Pinterest? But never on the Twitter's because well,

Ben Moon  2:00:03

We don't tweet, we scream like eagles.