Episode 57: Flow and Mental Mastery with Hazel Findlay

I'm not often intimidated by people, but Hazel Findlay's reputation is much larger than her 5'2" frame, so I was a bit anxious about this conversation. Mental training can be a pretty nebulous topic to begin with, so if I was going to be stumbling over my words, it could end up being a rough conversation. Not long after Hazel showed up at my house, it was clear that while she is indeed a force to be reckoned with, there was no reason to fret. As she would say, my worry was all "rubbish."

Hazel has a really great way of taking these concepts that are sometimes tough to connect with and making them seem simple. She struggles through them just like most of us do, and in turn is able to relate to exactly how we all experience fear, doubt, and any other number of emotions that can be both destructive and extremely valuable. I value this insight as a coach, and I look forward to talking with Hazel more in the future.   

Plus, she may or may not have said, "We don't tweet, we scream like eagles," in that amazing accent, which makes her my default favorite guest.  

In this episode Hazel mentions The Inner Game of Tennis, a classic book about the mental side of performance.  That led me to wonder what other books that Hazel might recommend, so this month we are giving our Patrons Hazel's recommended reading list, as well as a bonus episode with fan favorite Steve Bechtel.  

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:33

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 57 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by Powercompanyclimbing.com. I am back in Lander for a very brief period. It's been crazy busy here. Our tour went well. Nate and I toured around Missouri and then we went to Asana in Idaho and that was great. We'll be hitting the road again very soon though. We'll be working with a youth team in Tampa. Then I've got 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell, which I emcee, Rocktoberfest, which I emcee. Nate and I'll be doing some coaching sessions in the Red and then October 27 through 29th, I'll be in Salt Lake City speaking and coaching at the Climb Strong Performance Climbing Coach Seminar and that's with Steve Bechtel, Neely Quinn, Tyler Nelson, Charlie Manganiello. So if you guys want to sign up for that, that's going to be in Salt Lake again, October 27, through the 29th, you can do that at climb, strong, calm. Hopefully I see you guys there. And what may be our last event of the year will be in Bozeman, Montana, at Spire from November 14 to 17th and we'll be bringing a bunch of workshops through to Spire, which I'm really looking forward to. We've got a great community in Bozeman. So really excited about that and we appreciate all the support that we've gotten from everyone on the road thus far. You know, it means a lot to us to have this type of community who just steps up over and over again, it's, it's really humbling. And while we're on the road, we've had really great success with our new Applied Body Tension Workshop. The accompanying ebook has been selling like crazy. And if you don't know anything about it yet, basically, we've taken body tension, which we believe one of the core components of climbing well, and broken it down into a series of progressions that can be practiced while you climb and it can be dropped into any climbing session or training program. And body tension is way more than just front levers and planks, you know. You can have the strongest core on Earth but if you can't apply it while you climb, just doesn't mean a damn thing. So Applied Body Tension, Powercompanyclimbing.com. $20, you can get the ebook now. And if we come to your town, come out and take a workshop. I think it's our best yet. And speaking of books, the response to our new Process Journal has been far more than we ever expected. It's been a really pleasant surprise. We sold out of our first run. Halfway through our second, they're being carried by a few shops and gyms around the country and we've been adopted by several climbing teams, which we're really excited about. And I won't go into depth here what it's all about, but you can check it out in our shop at Powercompanyclimbing.com. And you'll be hearing more about it soon on here. We're going to talk about practice and the Process Journal and how and why to use it in an episode soon, and I actually just mailed a journal to France, headed to today's guest, Hazel Finlday. I, you know, I interviewed Tommy Caldwell the day before I sat down with Hazel, but I was far far more nervous about talking to her for some reason. She was a little bit intimidating to me and now I don't get intimidated easily. But as she would say that was just rubbish, because she's one of the sweetest easy to talk to people that I've had the pleasure to sit down with and we had a really great conversation. And, you know, I'm gonna stop talking now and let you guys hear the conversation. But you may want to stick around to the very end, we've got a little surprise, just sayin

Hazel Findlay  04:16

You would never train your fingers and then expect your fingers to be strong for years without continuing up your fingerboard. Equally, you can train your mind, but if you don't continue that practice, you'll get weak again.

Kris Hampton  04:46

 Yeah, I think you'll love it up there.

Hazel Findlay  04:47

Yeah, I'm just psyched to be in there, you know, I'm not, I'm not super bothered about like....if we free it, awesome. But if we don't then it's just like, whatever.

Kris Hampton  04:57

Yeah, I assume you've been warned about the mosquitos.

Hazel Findlay  05:00

Yeah, I mean, that's like I would rather like not free the route and have no mosquitoes.

Kris Hampton  05:10

Haha. I can guarantee you won't have no mosquitoes. 

Hazel Findlay  05:12

Mmmm yeah, I just hope that, you know, maybe they're in some sort of like altitude on the hike in and then when we get to the camp, it's too cold for them or something. Like that would be awesome.

Kris Hampton  05:22

Maybe. We'll hope for the best there.

Hazel Findlay  05:24

Yeah, yeah. If not, I guess it's just some sort of suffering that probably is valuable to some extent.

Kris Hampton  05:31

Hmmm. It will be. It always is. So what I want to talk to you about is I've read a bunch of your articles, and I've followed what you've done, and and I think it's great that someone of your caliber is leaning into this, this mental engagement sort of space. Because I think a lot of people, especially as they become better climbers tend to forget all about it.

Kris Hampton  05:58

And I think that's one of the basic building blocks of good performance in any sport, is just learning how to not necessarily control your mind better, but to use it better. And one of your, one of the first big articles you wrote on the Black Diamond site was "Let The Body Climb". That was the, you know, the basic gist of it. And I think that's a really powerful, simple message that most people can still learn from, no matter how strong they are, because we tend to get our brains tend to get involved too much.

Hazel Findlay  05:58

 Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  05:58

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  06:03

So can we talk a little bit about that, "Let The Body Climb" and how that came about?

Hazel Findlay  06:45

Yeah, so there's this really cool book called...oh god, am I gonna forget it now? Yeah.....um.... something about tennis? i don't...I'm confusing two different things now..... "The Inner Game of Tennis"!

Kris Hampton  07:04

 Okay, yeah, yeah yeah

Hazel Findlay  07:05

 And if you're at all interested in the psychology of sport, this is the book to read. It's awesome. And basically, it's a concept from that and I forget the terminology he uses now, but it's the same idea. It's just that, you know, if you're a professional tennis player, kids learn so fast, because they don't have that inner critic. They don't judge everything they do.

Kris Hampton  07:32

Right.

Hazel Findlay  07:32

 So you know, he was a, he's a tennis coach, this guy. He used to be a professional tennis player and he would watch people play tennis, and he could see, the people would go for a shot or whatever and they would immediately criticize themselves, say they did it wrong, put that their attention on the wrong things. And they would be... their attention would be all in that cognition. 

Kris Hampton  08:01

Right.

Hazel Findlay  08:02

Up here in the mind, instead of feeling what the racket feels like in the hands, judging where the ball is in space. And all of that stuff's intuitive. It doesn't require your conscious mind to say, do this, do that.

Kris Hampton  08:14

Right.

Hazel Findlay  08:14

 And the same thing happens in climbing. I mean, we've all been there, where you just like, "Hazel, okay, get this with your right hand.  No you've done it wrong!", you know, just that constant kind of inner critic. Whereas really, your body knows intuitively what to do. Your body knows how to climb. But the problem is, is we don't let our bodies climb. 

Kris Hampton  08:33

Sure. 

Hazel Findlay  08:33

We don't allow them to just do what they know how to do without judgment and without direction. So that's kind of what that article is about.

Kris Hampton  08:42

Yeah, one of the one of the first things I tell fairly new climbers to do is to stop looking for footholds and just let your body go to where you think you want the foothold to be. 

Hazel Findlay  08:55

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  08:55

And quite often, there is something to use right there, especially when you're a beginner climber. 

Hazel Findlay  09:01

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  09:01

And I think it's really important to do that. Do you think there's something, do you think there's a time, like during practice,vduring trying to get better at climbing, where it is important to think a little bit about the mistakes that you're making? Because I think that's an important part of deep practice is that feedback.

Hazel Findlay  09:23

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  09:23

And, and then in turn, is let the body climb more of a while you're on the wall, and performance thing?

Hazel Findlay  09:33

Yeah. So I think, basically, it's like, when you're climbing, you should be climbing and that's when you can intuitively let your body climb.

Kris Hampton  09:43

 Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  09:44

 But maybe once you've fallen off, there's no reason why you can't do a self analysis and kind of work out what maybe would have been better or, or, you know, if you are redpointing a route, there's no doubt you're going to have to kind of apply some sort of analysis to work out what's the best sequence or whatever, 

Kris Hampton  10:04

Right.

Hazel Findlay  10:04

But then what happens with that a lot of the time is it comes with a value or a judgment. 

Kris Hampton  10:10

Sure

Hazel Findlay  10:12

Like a positive and negative painting of what's going on. So it will be like you've done it wrong or...and with that, it's like a loss of energy. You know, it's...and so that kind of analysis is important and it's a necessity, but there's a way of doing it, which helps you learn, and there's a way of doing it that hinders learning. And I think a lot of athletes have a lot of these mental patterns where they actually hinder their learning versus nourish it.

Kris Hampton  10:49

Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Are there any tricks that you use? And "tricks" is.... I don't like using that word but but it seems to be the one that always ends up coming out. 

Hazel Findlay  11:00

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  11:00

Any, anything you implement to get yourself into that right space? Because I assume that sometimes it's still difficult for you as well. We're human, right?

Hazel Findlay  11:10

Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, it's that kind of non judgmental space, I guess I don't really have so many tricks. It's more, you kind of embrace a mindset, which takes a lot of practice. But it's something which I feel like I'm, I'm on that path towards. And it's, and this is what's really hard for professional climbers and for people, high end climbers, is kind of like, adopting a not so bothered kind of an attitude.

Kris Hampton  11:51

Right. Right. Right.

Hazel Findlay  11:52

You know, it's like, when you're climbing, you try your absolute hardest, but always kind of remembering to stay, I suppose, you know, like, remain humble and remember that this is fun. And remember that it's a light activity, and to not put too much weight and too much pressure and, and too much judgment on yourself and your ability, because all of that stuff is it's just an energy suck really. 

Kris Hampton  12:28

Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  12:28

And so I think just like trying to remain grateful as well, you know, like, a "I'm here at the crag today. I'm having fun. This is awesome. I'm so lucky to be here",  if you if you go to the crag with that kind of mentality, good things will come of your day, even if you don't send your project, you'll learn. But if you go to the crag like, "I need some my project. I'm climbing shit right now", you know, it's, you're lacking that gratitude to just sort of be there. And I think it's hard when you climb for 20 years, and you're a professional climber to just, to always have that. But if you switch your mindset to try to at least trying to, to cultivate a good mental attitude towards climbing, then you're on that road, and it's a good road. The problem is, is that too many people just stay with the physical rounds of climbing. I need to fingerboard. I need to get fitter. I need this. I need that. And they forget about this whole other side of the sport.

Kris Hampton  13:30

Yeah, I agree completely. I mean, I make my living writing those training programs. 

Hazel Findlay  13:35

Yeah. Okay.

Kris Hampton  13:36

 That's how it looks on the outside. But most of what I do, 90% of it is communication with the clients about their mindset and how they're approaching their projects, or whatever it is that they're working towards. And if you're... this is something we've been talking about a lot lately, that no matter how strong your fingers are, no matter how many pull ups you can do, I don't care if you can hold a front lever for three and a half minutes, if if you don't have the right mindset when you get on a route, then you're just beating yourself before you even get off the ground. And you know, no strength is going to overcome that. 

Hazel Findlay  14:20

No. Yeah, totally right.

Kris Hampton  14:21

There's something that you you have these this five or six, I guess, points that you make in this "Let The Body Climb" article that you wrote and the first thing that you like to do is ask yourself why? And, and I think on the surface, we could very easily just say, why do we climb? And that's this big existential question that no one knows exactly how to answer, you know, but I do think there's a lot of importance in asking yourself that question. So let's talk a little bit about that because I think that's a good first place to go. 

Hazel Findlay  14:25

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  14:35

First off, when would you go to that question? At what point would you ask yourself "Why?" ?

Hazel Findlay  15:11

I guess I wouldn't necessarily ask it in such general terms maybe, but I think what that question leads you to is, where are your motivations? And I think that's what's important. And that's what you can ask yourself, when you've got this big project going on, especially with projecting because it requires a huge commitment of time and energy.

Kris Hampton  15:38

Right.

Hazel Findlay  15:38

 Versus, you know, you don't necessarily need to say, "Okay, what are my motivations for just onsighting this route today?". You know, you are just going climbing. Ummm but you know, "What are my motivations to do this goal that I've got?" and I think as soon as you pick some big goal like that, it's really important to look inwards and say, What am I motivations here and are they sustainable and do they match the level of commitment I'm putting in? And if it's, if your motivations are very end based, so you know, it's, it's simply to achieve that thing, write it on your CV, tell your sponsors, put it on your Instagram post, tell your mates you climbed 8a, whatever it is, what happens is your attention is, is on that result. That's what you care about. That's what defines failure and success. And when that happens, there's, again, going back to this idea of you are hindering learning. So it's like if you're, if your intention is "Okay, I really want to do Freerider in a day, because if I have that goal, I'm going to get way fitter, I'm going to I'm going to be I'm going to have to be flowing way better on granite and if I can achieve that, then there's all these other things that I can do afterwards. And during the process of that my technique on granite is going to get better. My head game is going to get better." and that becomes a process instead of just an end, so that even if you don't achieve your goal, there's so much value in what's been done. And it will, you'll become a better climber. So it's, it's basically this idea of like mastery versus achievement. And I think that all of the athletes who kind of value mastery of the sport over just like end goal, end goal, end goal, generally, they might not, they might not technically achieve as much on paper, but they're the ones that keep climbing until they're 70, or whatever. 

Kris Hampton  17:48

Sure.

Hazel Findlay  17:48

And they become like absolute dudes of the sport, and can climb on any different rock type. And, and just love it. 

Kris Hampton  17:57

Yep. 

Hazel Findlay  17:58

And I think that's super valuable.

Kris Hampton  18:01

Yeah, and I think the, like, you just mentioned that they may not achieve as much on paper and I think that a lot of people really want that. They really want to have a tick list and, and I've seen people push toward checking off those boxes and making that their main focus. And, and initially, that might work really well, you know, but if you're not learning that process along the way, if you're not learning to love that process along the way, then then eventually that those check marks are going to slow down, you know. And and those people who learn to love the process are going to keep plodding along and keep checking boxes, you know, long after you've burnt out or gotten injured, or whatever it is, because your only focus is on "I need to send this new number". 

Hazel Findlay  18:53

Yeah, totally. 

Kris Hampton  18:55

And I just talked to Tommy yesterday, and he said the exact same thing in almost the same words.

Hazel Findlay  19:01

Alright cool.

Kris Hampton  19:02

That when you're 70, those are the guys who are still climbing, that have learned to love that process. You know, so I think it's a hugely important thing that maybe not enough people are attaching themselves to. During that process, do you have little mini goals that you can sort of check those boxes? I mean, do you create something like that in your head? Or is it one big goal, here's the process I need to do to get to it and let's just get involved in that process and not worry about checking any boxes?

Hazel Findlay  19:38

Yeah, so I'm sort of notoriously bad at goal setting in general. I'm, you know, my my weakness isn't...it's that I don't goal set enough. Umm in fact, the only route I've ever trained for was Mind Control, that 8c that I did.

Kris Hampton  19:55

Which I think is kind of ironic, that your hardest route is called Mind Control.

Hazel Findlay  19:59

Haha Yeah. That's cool. Um, and that was mostly because of my shoulder because I was recovering from shoulder operation and I was just super weak and I needed some kind of structured training to get back. I couldn't just go rock climbing. And, but that's literally the only time in my life where I've had a goal, and I've worked towards it, which is pretty insane for a professional climber. Ummm I've just kind of fallen into stuff, you know, and just gone with the flow of things.

Kris Hampton  20:30

 Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  20:31

Ummm but I am trying to be better, especially since now I'm a coach. Ummm I feel like I need to have more experience with that process of setting a goal and working towards it. 

Kris Hampton  20:43

Do you find that once you get involved in the process of something that that becomes your goal? I mean, for instance, when you're on, working on Golden Gate, or whatever, obviously, once you commit to getting up on the wall, you have that goal, right? I mean, that's what you want to do so.

Hazel Findlay  21:02

Yeah, so like, well, you know, I've had this abstract goal of wanting to free El Cap since I was like a kid or whatever.

Kris Hampton  21:09

Right.

Hazel Findlay  21:09

 And I suppose I knew I was going to go to The Valley. I wasn't quite sure what route I was gonna do and I knew I had to get fit for it. So I guess in some sense, but it wasn't very....there was no structure. I literally just went sport climbing. 

Kris Hampton  21:27

Right, it wasn't this concrete thing with checkboxes leading up to it.

Hazel Findlay  21:31

No. My aim was just to go climbing as much as I could. And for me, that's always just worked better, because it's, again, going back to motivations. It's like, I'm going climbing today, because I want to go climbing today right now. Not I want to go climbing today because I want to do this route three months from now and I need to be fit for it. 

Kris Hampton  21:49

Right. 

Hazel Findlay  21:49

Umm but I think what's good for me is that now I kind of.... that's when my lifestyle was more back to back trips. Whereas now I sort of live in Germany for half the year and so I have more options of what I can and can't do. I can go to the gym. I can go bouldering. I can go sport climbing. I can go alpine climbing. And so it's not like "I'm in Spain, sport climbing." And so now I think my lifestyle fits better this slightly more goal orientated mindset. And so yeah, maybe I would have mini goals, for sure. But it would more be like, "I'm gonna try this route, because it's similar to the big goal I've got in a few months, and it will help me get fitter.", but I won't be that concerned about achieving that goal that much.

Kris Hampton  22:38

Sure sure. You say you're bad at goal setting but you've had this abstract goal of freeing El Cap for a long time, and you kept it there and you dug so much into the process that you didn't even notice that that was a big goal anymore, you know. But you stuck to it. I think that maybe that doesn't look like the traditional model of goal setting, but maybe it's a really good way to do it.

Hazel Findlay  23:10

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the thing is, I really do achieve less than my peers, you know, that that are the same level as me. Which, you know, I'm kind of just okay with. But, you know, I wouldn't go looking to copy what I do if you are someone who wants to achieve stuff haha.

Kris Hampton  23:36

Hahaha but that's something you fell into naturally, it's your natural rhythm. 

Hazel Findlay  23:41

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  23:41

But I do think it's important that you're stepping out of that, occasionally, and trying to embrace and learn this other process of goal setting.

Hazel Findlay  23:50

Yeah, totally. And, and, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna become super stressed about achieving stuff, but I definitely want to have a few more goals in the pipeline, I think. 

Kris Hampton  24:05

Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  24:05

That would be nice.

Kris Hampton  24:06

 Yeah. Cool. Can we talk briefly? I don't know how much time you have . What time do you have to be out of here?

Hazel Findlay  24:13

Like, we're good. We've only gone half an hour, haven't we? So I thought it would be like minimum an hour, is what I was thinking.

Kris Hampton  24:21

Okay cool.  I just didn't want to take up too much your time. I know you're busy here. 

Hazel Findlay  24:25

Gotta go climbing haha. 

Kris Hampton  24:26

Yeah exactly. Can we talk about the getting the senses involved? I think that's, I think that's a unique approach that that I could employ more. Some of it I've fallen into without even realizing I do it, other parts I would like to try and implement and I think it's a really easy way to ground yourself in that moment. And you put it really simply so if we could, let's go through that. You talk about breath first.

Hazel Findlay  24:59

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  25:00

Give me a little of that.

Hazel Findlay  25:02

Umm yeah. So I don't know, maybe I'll just explain generally kind of the concept of connecting to the senses. 

Kris Hampton  25:11

Sure. Do it.

Hazel Findlay  25:12

Umm so the idea is basically that a lot of what distracts us in climbing is us, our brains wandering, just some kind of like future state. 

Kris Hampton  25:26

Right

Hazel Findlay  25:26

 And, and usually, there's kind of worry attached to that. So it might be "Oh, god, I'm gonna fall" or it might be "Shit, I'm gonna fail on this project again, for the millionth time". 

Kris Hampton  25:36

We create all this anxiety.

Hazel Findlay  25:37

Yeah, anxiety. And it's, it's usually always about, you're thinking about something that's not right now. 

Kris Hampton  25:44

Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  25:45

 And, and if you kind of connect to your senses, and and fire them, then your consciousness automatically comes back to the present moment, which is where it needs to be for climbing.

Kris Hampton  25:59

 Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  26:00

It's not like weird, hippie-dippie, random stuff. 

Kris Hampton  26:03

Right. Totally.

Hazel Findlay  26:04

It just makes sense. It's like, if you want to do a task, where is your focus supposed to be? Is it with some worries, worrying about some future state or is it right here with what this hold looks like? How does it feel in your hand? How is your shoes in your, in your...how are your toes in your shoes? How big is that foothold? What's your body position? What's your balance? What's your breath? If you connect to all that, that's the feedback you need to climb well and so it just kind of makes sense. And this kind of tricks that you can use to bring your consciousness back to that. So a lot of people will use breath, if even if they don't know it or not. You know, they might just <deep exhale>, take a kind of pronounced out, outward breath before they commit to moving um and that kind of cleans the slate of those, those negative thoughts. And if you find that if you really focus on something properly, like your breath, or how your, the hand feels on the hold, really, that's enough to fill your consciousness, and so it wipes everything else away. So that's kind of like the general idea behind it. And more specifically, breath is a good one as well, because they've kind of shown that if you control your breath, it's it fires the parasympathetic nervous system, which helps you relax as well. And it's also the breath is interesting, because it's something we can do automatically and it's also something we can control. And so making alterations in that is, is kind of like a powerful way of connecting to your senses.

Kris Hampton  27:54

Is there something that you feel when you when you think that you're breathing right and getting yourself into that space? Is there, is there something that you look for or notice?

Hazel Findlay  28:09

I think just just being aware of your breathing is hugely powerful. And it's really good for hard climbing as well because you know, some movements, you have to hold your breath. You can't really breathe through it. 

Kris Hampton  28:21

Sure. 

Hazel Findlay  28:21

So getting the timing right for that is can be crucial, especially for something like bouldering. So just being more aware of what's going on with your breath. And kind of, yeah, just using it to get into the flow of climbing but but mostly just to kind of switch on the senses and switch off the excess thought that's not necessary.

Kris Hampton  28:43

Yeah, yeah, I think all these things are really important because, like you said, it's not this hippie dippie thing. It's, you know, our, our bodies are completely 100%, interconnected. You know, whatever, whatever senses, when we use our senses, it affects our bodies. You know, we've seen it happen all the time. If we get scared, we tighten up, you know. And that's taking in something through your senses, whether it's something you hear or something you see, and our breathing changes immediately when we're scared of something or when we're relaxed. So learning to control all these things, I think is really important. You also mentioned sight, and this was the one that surprised me that..... I remember a very specific moment on when I did my first 13a. Wasn't my first, was my second 13a and at a rest, I remember hanging out at the rest and noticing a little off to the right, there's this little tiny pocket that would be a perfect, mono, if if I liked pinky monos. It was absolutely perfect for my pinky, you know and I would chalk up and put my pinky in it and, you know, I started noticing every little thing about this pocket. And I had actually forgotten about that pocket until just last season, I went back up it just for the fun of it and when I got to that rest, I saw that pocket again. And then I remembered how much time I spent fiddling with this little pocket while I hung out at the rest. And you talk about when you mentioned sight,  that one of the techniques you can use to zero in on something and notice all the little details of it, you know, right in front of you. And I had totally forgotten that that happened until I read that.

Hazel Findlay  30:38

That's cool. Yeah, maybe it's a kind of intuitive thing? Um, yeah, I like it. Um, it's just a, it's just a focusing technique. Like, there's so many things going on that are distracting for us. 

Kris Hampton  30:54

Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  30:55

And our eyes, when we're distracted, our eyes tend to draw around all over the place and that's kind of a manifestation of a wandering mind as well. You're just like.....and a stressed mind as well. People who are stressed,their eyes kind of dart all over the place. 

Kris Hampton  31:09

Right.

Hazel Findlay  31:10

 But also, like, what are the things we need to be able to climb well? The two kind of senses that are really important are sensation, so just, you know, a sensation of balance or sensation of how a hold feels in your hands, whatever, but also sight. So if we can kind of channel that sense a little bit and focus it down, sharpen it, before we set off into climbing, then our minds are just that much bit sharper for what we're about to do. It's kind of like, you know in tennis, players really watch, they like bounce the ball before they do the serve. 

Kris Hampton  31:49

Right, right. 

Hazel Findlay  31:50

It's the exact same thing. It's a focusing technique. 

Kris Hampton  31:53

Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  31:53

It's not some just like some show off thing they do on TV. 

Kris Hampton  31:57

Right.

Hazel Findlay  31:58

They're like really feeling the ball in their hand. They're watching how it bounces. They're zeroing in on the little like green, like hairs on the ball. And that's channeling their senses because they need to be the sharpest they can be for when that ball comes back in their face.

Kris Hampton  32:16

Right. Yeah, that's, that's really important. I'd never thought about that you know, but you do see every tennis player bounce the ball before they serve, so.

Hazel Findlay  32:24

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  32:24

 Yeah, really cool. Do you think there is, do you think there's validity in taking in the bigger picture as far as sight goes, like, looking around at where you're at? Is that a way to focus or does it have to be on a small little space?

Hazel Findlay  32:46

Yeah, I don't know. I think a lot of this stuff is personal. Like sometimes when I'm at a rest, one thing I really like to do is look out at the view behind me and take it all in. And but I feel like that is more of an appreciation thing. It's like, "Why does it even matter if I get up this route? Because look where I am. I'm in this amazing place, I'm so lucky to be here." You just...you feel smaller.

Kris Hampton  33:12

 Right.

Hazel Findlay  33:13

It's like when we're climbing, it's just like getting to the top becomes this massive big picture and that seems to be the all that matters. And then when...if you actually look behind you and take in the view, you're just like, "I'm this tiny human on this piece of rock and I really am so insignificant" and I think that when you take that kind of gratitude in and that it's kind of humbles you a bit. So it's a different, it's a different thing, I think. But yeah, it's interesting, because even though I find that zeroing in on one spot helps me focus, you don't want to have the narrow vision that people have when they're stressed, and they climb and they don't notice what's around them. 

Kris Hampton  33:54

Sure sure.

Hazel Findlay  33:55

 So I guess, you know, it's kind of just being aware of both those things. But the idea is that if you zero in on the spot, and you focus on your breath, and you do all these techniques that you shouldn't be stressed when you leave the rest. All of those things should help relax you. And if you're not stressed, you're likely to be more open to options, look around you. It's when you're in that stressed mindset of  "I need to send" and "I'm scared" or whatever it is, that you tend to have the blinkers

Kris Hampton  34:25

You get tunnel vision. 

Hazel Findlay  34:25

Tunnel  vision, yeah.

Kris Hampton  34:27

Yeah. Yeah, totally. And you mentioned sensation in there a few minutes ago. Let's talk a little bit about that. It's, you know, I think there are a lot of ways to say it, whether it's just awareness or you know, I don't know. I think sensation is a cool way to say it that I probably never would have come up with on my own. So tell me a little about how that... how you focus on that, how you use that.

Hazel Findlay  35:00

So yeah, it's just that same kind of technique as, um, you know, like, when you focus on your breath, you're just focusing on the sensation of breathing, like how it feels to breathe in, how it feels for your belly to press against your harness. It's just, you're just becoming aware of a particular sensation in your body. And for climbing, we need to be aware of various sensations in our body. So like, our fingertips are pretty key. We need to know, you know exactly what this finger, these fingers feel like to know whether you can move off of it in a certain way.

Kris Hampton  35:39

Right. And that doesn't mean focus on the pain necessarily. If a hold is really painful, that doesn't mean think about how bad it hurts.

Hazel Findlay  35:48

 No

Kris Hampton  35:49

 But maybe, you know, it needs to dig into your index fingertip in a certain way and, and you get used to that sensation. 

Hazel Findlay  35:58

Yeah and it's really hard to describe this stuff, because we're describing all of this stuff using words. 

Kris Hampton  36:04

Sure.

Hazel Findlay  36:05

 But when it happens, it's not like the words "Oh I need my fingertip to be a little bit more to the right" go through my mind. It's, it's, it's instant feedback.

Kris Hampton  36:16

Right. Right.

Hazel Findlay  36:17

 And that's what it is to be in flow. That's what it is to climb completely focused, is that the feedback from the senses is instantaneous. It doesn't go through the filter of the mind, which judges the situation. You know, it's like a rally car driver or whatever. He just reacts.

Kris Hampton  36:36

Right.

Hazel Findlay  36:36

He doesn't go, "Oh, there's bend, turning, coming around in a few meters, I'm going to put the brake on." and it's a couple of seconds and then "I'm going to put it in, like half pad." No, it's completely intuitive. 

Kris Hampton  36:47

Sure. 

Hazel Findlay  36:47

And a lot of sports demand that of you because they happen quicker. The problem with climbing is that it is so slow. There's so much time for thought and deliberation. And a lot of people find that when they need to react, they climb at their best. And that's why like speed climbing and doing these exercises where you climb continuously can be really fun to do, because you realize that when you react actually kind of amazing things can happen. And it's the deliberation that that causes the kind of

Kris Hampton  37:20

That throws it all off.

Hazel Findlay  37:20

Oh, yeah.

Kris Hampton  37:21

 Yeah. And that's what I you know, that's what I do here. I like to dig into these nebulous, sort of hard to pin down topics and talk about them. So I appreciate how well you can put it into words. I think you did a really good job of this. When I was reading through these articles, when you...I have this very distinct memory of when you start talking about smell that you mentioned, that if your sense of smell is rubbish and, and I love that you use the word "rubbish", it cracks me up when I read it and now I want to use it all the time.

Hazel Findlay  38:03

Hahah Americans love that word.

Kris Hampton  38:05

 So I've been looking forward to being able to say rubbish, because my sense of smell is rubbish. And, and you can use that sense as well. You can use smell, and you can listen and use your hearing as a way to pull yourself back in. 

Hazel Findlay  38:20

Mmmhmm yeah.

Kris Hampton  38:21

You know, I think I think listening is a really big one for me personally. And not in the sense that that I'm trying to hear everything that's going on, but for me, when I get into that state where I'm really approaching or in flow, or in the zone, as some people might call it or whatever it is, everything quiets down, except for the voices I want to be able to pick out. You know, I can, I can hear my daughter yelling my name. I can hear my fiancee. I can hear certain partners, and I don't hear anyone else. And so for me, and I don't know if it's because I have a background in making music or what it is, but that sense for me is probably the strongest while I'm climbing. You know, I definitely have moments where I can remember hearing my breathing while I'm climbing and that's the only thing I can hear, you know. So like you just said a few minutes ago, that this is all personal. 

Hazel Findlay  39:36

Yeah

Kris Hampton  39:36

I think that's really important. Like we don't, we don't necessarily have to incorporate all five of these senses into every climb that we try. You know, if we find something that really works for us, that's what we should stick with. Is that fair to say?

Hazel Findlay  39:53

Totally. Yeah. And, and making these things....you know, a lot of people, this stuff just doesn't gel with them. 

Kris Hampton  39:59

Sure. 

Hazel Findlay  39:59

It just...and maybe they have climbed a long time and they've got their methods that are either conscious, or subconscious or whatever it is, and, and all this stuff, they're just like, "What a load of shit" and then it just doesn't gel with them. Ummm but if it does gel with you then I think just playing with all of them and seeing what works for you, and making them familiar, because when you use this stuff quite a lot, it becomes like a little ritual. And it becomes it's kind of like an old friend or there's just like this kind of comforting, familiar familiarity to some of this stuff.

Kris Hampton  40:44

 Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  40:44

Comforting to just like <deep exhale> and what that feels like in your body is is is so personal to you. It's It's It's your consciousness and I think it can be really powerful and, and really cool and I think that, yeah, just having fun with it. And like I hardly ever use the smell one. Sometimes if I'm just like bored, or <sniffs>,  if it's somewhere that smells nice, 

Kris Hampton  41:13

Haha if I'm bored, I'll just <sniffs> 

Hazel Findlay  41:14

 You know, yeah, yeah. <sniff> <sniff> <sniff> or whatever. 

Kris Hampton  41:18

My smell is rubbish, so.

Hazel Findlay  41:20

Yeah, okay. You love saying that word don't you? Or even like the sound one, if there are people at the crag I tend to just not listen.

Kris Hampton  41:28

Right.

Hazel Findlay  41:28

 But if it's like nice birds tweeting or whatever, it's really nice just to like, listen to the birds for a bit. 

Kris Hampton  41:34

Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  41:34

 And yeah, it's fun.

Kris Hampton  41:37

Well, just recently I was talking with, I went down to the World Cup in Vail, Colorado, and I was talking to competitors about pressure and how they deal with it. And one of the younger competitors, a girl named Lily Canavan, had some of the best advice. That, you know, she likes to have a pre climb routine before she steps onto a boulder to pull herself into that present moment. Do you have a routine? Is there something you like to do pre climb? 

Hazel Findlay  42:12

Yeah, I mean, 

Kris Hampton  42:13

Or when you get to a rest at a climb, do you have a routine?

Hazel Findlay  42:17

Yeah, the rest, I definitely use all this stuff more on resting. And I'm actually being coached at the minute by this guy called Cameron who works at the Flow Center, who's kind of doing all this research into flow and stuff and we came up with this ritual together. But it's not working super well for me, because I don't know about you, but you kind of just tend to chat to your belayer a ton before you step on the rock.

Kris Hampton  42:48

Right right.

Hazel Findlay  42:49

And so I'm kind of always forgetting to do the one where, but if it's like a big climb or whatever, I might, and so like, I do this thing where I just like, really kind of like, think about how I'm tying my knot and then and start kind of connecting to my breath whilst I'm on the ground still. And then I also like to do this thing where I just feel what the chalks like.

Kris Hampton  43:18

Mmmhmmm

Hazel Findlay  43:18

 Which is kinda useful, too, because sometimes your chalk's a little bit damp, or you need to get more of it, or whatever it is. 

Kris Hampton  43:26

If you're, if you're in that moment, and your chalk is a little bit damp, does that ever throw you off? Does it...orr how do you get over that, if it doesn't feel right, and you can't make it feel right?

Hazel Findlay  43:37

Well, this is something I do when I'm still on the ground. So if it's really bad, I could probably do something about it.

Kris Hampton  43:42

Yeah, just let me borrow your chalk because my chalk is rubbish.

Hazel Findlay  43:45

Yeah, yeah, if you've got rubbish chalk, it's no good. Um but like, yeah..yeah, stuff like, that doesn't seem to affect me too much. But yeah, the resting thing is, is something I really like, because I like doing this kind of challenging resting, where what happens with climbing is you like you're in flow, you're in flow, everything's like super focused, and you get to a jug and then all of the narrative.

Kris Hampton  44:14

All the sounds rush back in, everything is yeah...

Hazel Findlay  44:17

 Yeah. And you start to feel heavy and worried and you don't want to leave the rest. 

Kris Hampton  44:22

Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  44:22

And so what I like to do is like, apply the same level of focus to my climbing as to my on my rest. So you know, like, real active resting. So how much weight is through my right toe right now? How pumped is my right arm? Really focusing on getting my heart rate down, like is my heart rate back to kind of a normal level? You know, just applying that same level of focus and then before I climb, I'll employ some of those techniques. So looking at that first hold, really seeing what it looks like, connecting to my breath, Feeling what the chalk feels like in the chalk bag, you know, that kind of thing. And then click back on. It's like, it's like switching back into a high level of focus. 

Kris Hampton  45:10

Right. Right.

Hazel Findlay  45:11

Umm and that seems to work pretty well. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  45:16

And then once you leave that rest you let the body climb again.

Hazel Findlay  45:19

 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  45:20

Yeah, I have a pre climb ritual that I never really thought of as a pre climb ritual, until just recently, since I've really been digging into this. But I really like to, and this obviously doesn't work if I'm on something multipitch, but I really like to take my harness off and put it back on. I like to be putting my harness on right before I tie in, right before I go. 

Hazel Findlay  45:47

Oh cool.

Kris Hampton  45:48

It just feels like suiting up to me. 

Hazel Findlay  45:50

Yeah, yeah

Kris Hampton  45:51

Like getting prepared. 

Hazel Findlay  45:52

Yeah. I like that.

Kris Hampton  45:54

 So I don't, if it's something difficult for me, I do it every time. You know, if I'm climbing with new people around, they look at me like I'm really strange, like, "You just took that off?".

Hazel Findlay  46:04

Do you leave a gap in between? Do you like take off and sort of like do a little like weird stretch?

Kris Hampton  46:07

I don't have to. No, I don't have to, I could just take it off. Step out of it. And then I can step right back in and go into that mode. I don't know if that was always the case. Maybe there was a time when there had to be a gap or there just was a gap that was there. I don't know. But now just the act of pulling the harness on and buckling up and tying in, that whole act gets me into the right mindset. I haven't found my routine for boulders yet, you know?

Hazel Findlay  46:39

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  46:40

Boulders are a little harder for me.

Hazel Findlay  46:41

 Maybe you could take your trousers off and put them back on hahahaha

Kris Hampton  46:43

Hahaha. i'll try that. You never know. It could work. 

Hazel Findlay  46:52

Or your chalk bag? I suppose you don't really take your chalkbag bouldering a lot, do you?

Kris Hampton  46:55

 No.

Hazel Findlay  46:55

 Yeah, I don't know.

Kris Hampton  46:56

 It's tougher for me. Bouldering seems a little more frantic, like a lot more....it's faster. 

Hazel Findlay  47:03

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  47:04

So I have a harder time breathing and getting into that mode. 

Hazel Findlay  47:09

You know, you can just like look at the first hold of  the boulder problem and go <deep exhale> and then just like do it. 

Kris Hampton  47:15

Yeah, I have a friend, a local guy who's one of the stronger climbers around here and he's very good at...he takes several deep and very forceful exhale breaths before he steps on, and he can just explode the minute he's on the wall.

Hazel Findlay  47:33

 Yeah, 

Kris Hampton  47:33

You know, he goes from casual conversation to explode, just like that. And I can't do that at all...or I haven't been able to, but I'm learning to. So yeah, I think that's... I like the idea of having a ritual, especially at a rest.

Hazel Findlay  47:48

Yeah

Kris Hampton  47:48

 I think that's cool. And I think a lot of people forget that,  that they can still be active while they're at that rest.

Hazel Findlay  47:57

And if it's like a really easy rest, like you stood on a ledge or something, I probably just switch off and let my mind wander. 

Kris Hampton  48:06

Sure. 

Hazel Findlay  48:07

And then switch it back on.

Kris Hampton  48:10

Yeah, a lot of like, you know, when I've just recently been experimenting with meditation, because I've heard so many successful people talk about using it. I wanted to see what it was all about. And that's something that I found really interesting about meditation is you don't try to keep your mind still, that's not what it's about. You just let your mind do what it's going to do, you know, and, and you become essentially at at peace with that, letting it wander around and then you can bring it back when you need it.

Hazel Findlay  48:41

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  48:42

You know, so I think that's, that's pretty big. You mentioned the flow state and working with The Flow Center. Tell me a little bit about that. Are there....what can we do to better find that? Well..first off, what is the flow state? I know we could do a whole podcast on this, but what is it and what can we do to help ourselves get into it? Are all these things helping you get there?

Hazel Findlay  49:06

Yeah, everything we've talked about helps you get into flow state for sure. And really, kind of being in flow is the end goal of mental training. Accessing flow more easily is the end goal of mental training. And...well, do you want me to just talk about what I think flow is?

Kris Hampton  49:28

 Yeah, tell me what it is.

Hazel Findlay  49:30

 You know, I mean, I think most athletes, or kind of performers or musicians will will know what flow state feels like and at least know what it's like to not be in flow as well. And I think there's degrees of flow. But you know, some people might say "in the zone" as well. Like you mentioned before, and it's just kind of where everything's happening automatic and kind of you're just moving and there's nothing else going on in your consciousness so you're not thinking about your performance.

Hazel Findlay  50:08

You're not thinking about failure or success. And usually, one of the defining features of flow state is when you come out of it, you have this sense of elation, which is what brings people back to things like climbing or racing or music or whatever it is.

Kris Hampton  50:08

Right.

Kris Hampton  50:27

Totally.

Hazel Findlay  50:27

 And, and the sense of real escapism from our own minds. That, you know, if you were like some sort of Zen meditation master, you can, you can probably do just that but for us normal folk, it's nice to have something that that gives us that because the the only other thing is sleep essentially.

Kris Hampton  50:49

Right. Right. Which doesn't work well if you're climbing.

Hazel Findlay  50:53

Hahaha yeah. Um, so yeah, there's tons of science now behind flow state. It used to be kind of this elusive concept and people couldn't really put their finger on it, but everyone kind of agreed about it and, and ....Csikszentmihalyi..... No one can say his name. I'm pretty sure I got it wrong.

Kris Hampton  51:17

 When I read it, I can't even begin to say it.

Hazel Findlay  51:19

 Yeah, 

Kris Hampton  51:20

So I know exactly who you're talking about

Hazel Findlay  51:22

Someone told me that a good way of remembering it is "chicks get me high" or something? 

Kris Hampton  51:26

Hahaha

Hazel Findlay  51:27

Yeah, chicks....mint..chicks smith me high, something like that. So yeah, he actually did like his own kind of study, but you wouldn't call it a scientific study. He just went and interviewed tons of people around the world and found that the thing that made people happy in whatever they did was kind of whether they were able to access this flow state.

Kris Hampton  51:51

You mentioned that you find a state of elation afterward. And I had never thought about that, but this past season we spent in the Red River Gorge last fall and my fiancee had never reached that flow state. She didn't know what it was like. And she had a lot of anxiety when she was climbing and we've spent a lot of time working through that and I've had Arno on the podcast and Arno's talked with her and, you know, we've, we've worked through it, and are still working through it. But But there was one moment on a 12a that she did, where, where she clicked into it, you know? And then afterward, she was so excited, like, "I don't know what happened up there. I don't remember doing it. I don't remember getting through it. It just all happened. I was climbing so well." You know, she was so excited about it and and that really was the moment where she decided I want to get good at this. 

Hazel Findlay  52:49

Yeah Yeah.

Kris Hampton  52:50

This is something I want to have happen more often.

Hazel Findlay  52:52

That's it right there. That's like, that's the life of climbing ahead of you. Just on probably a 3 second moment.

Kris Hampton  52:59

 Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  53:00

But and and it's awesome, because whether she did that climb or not, she would have felt the same.

Kris Hampton  53:07

Right. Totally.

Hazel Findlay  53:09

Yeah. So if you fell, had fallen off right after that, she would have been like, "Whatever" because it would have been this awesome moment. So yeah, that's the cool thing about it and but yeah, there's, there's tons of science now. And actually loads of the sciences coming out of the US military um because

Kris Hampton  53:25

A lot of science ends up coming out of there. Apparently we put a lot of money into that.

Hazel Findlay  53:30

Yeah, but it's awesome. I love this kind of like, you know, the the shift of Eastern concepts to West. The West. 

Kris Hampton  53:39

Sure.

Hazel Findlay  53:39

And utter surprise when we when we like, "Oh shit, maybe there's something in this meditation stuff."  You know, all these people have been doing it for 1000s of years and living peacefully happy lives, but you know, that's not evidence. But when we put the electrodes on their heads, and we saw how well they could focus on their, like, business plan or whatever, then, then now it's worthwhile to us. 

Kris Hampton  54:01

Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  54:02

It's pretty funny. 

Kris Hampton  54:03

It really is.

Hazel Findlay  54:04

 Um, but yeah, so because a lot of the stuff in the military, you know, getting people snipers to be in flow or getting anyone in any kind of war situation, switching off that anxiety is just super effective. And there also... there's loads of money in it now, because the whole business realm is getting into this concept. You know, if you're a businessman in flow, the idea is that you can like work Monday, Tuesday and take the rest of the week off, because you're that much more efficient with your time. 

Kris Hampton  54:35

Yeah. 

Hazel Findlay  54:35

So and there's lots of interest in it right now and it's finally filtering into climbing. But it's it's absurd to me that, you know, all of our professional athletes and competitors, I mean, I don't I don't know enough competitors, but no one's talking about it. No one's training it.

Kris Hampton  54:52

Right, right.

Hazel Findlay  54:53

And um, it's really weird because you know, you talk to a baseball player and they have a, on the hand mental training coach there the whole time. 

Kris Hampton  55:02

Absolutely.

Hazel Findlay  55:02

And they're employing every trick in the book.

Kris Hampton  55:04

Yeah, absolutely.

Hazel Findlay  55:06

So, you know, it's, it's, we're just so behind the times in climbing

Kris Hampton  55:10

We are, we are. And I think in part, that's because it's, there's been no money in it for a long time and, and there's been a resistance to treating it like a sport, you know, because it is a lifestyle, and I appreciate that. But I can also appreciate the athletic part of it, you know, so,

Hazel Findlay  55:31

But it's interesting with the mental stuff, because a lot of....it, I mean, depends what approach you have, but so much of that is about simple enjoyment as well. 

Kris Hampton  55:44

Yeah, absolutely. 

Hazel Findlay  55:45

And not about performance goals. 

Kris Hampton  55:48

But they lead to performance goals, right?

Hazel Findlay  55:50

Yeah. Totally.

Kris Hampton  55:50

 I mean, that's, I think, overall, what we're talking about here, it's just part of the process.

Hazel Findlay  55:56

And it's, um, yes, it is interesting to me, because I feel like there is quite a bit of money now in, in, in competitions and professional climbing, there's enough. And, you know, people say they have kind of someone who's, you know, studied a bit of psychology or something to coach them. But there's no real..... there's just, there's just not enough happening, I don't think and and the culture isn't there for it, I suppose. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  56:27

Yeah. Yeah, I think it takes people like you to step up and start talking about it for that to happen, so I'm glad you're out there doing it.

Hazel Findlay  56:35

I just hope that some people, you know, like, the, the physical coaches and, and maybe the people more in that world, because people still, I think, see me as like a lifestyle trad climber, because I am to a large extent.

Kris Hampton  56:48

Sure. 

Hazel Findlay  56:49

And so maybe they don't, they're not, they see me as someone who deals with like, fall anxiety, or and same with Arno maybw. Not, this person is going to help me win this competition and this person is going to help me feel good about competition, or whatever it is. And I did actually coach a comp climber a little bit last year, and it was super fun. So I just, I would like to see more people in that kind of world step up and fill that space,

Kris Hampton  57:21

I agree completely

Hazel Findlay  57:22

 Um because people aren't really looking to me to do that, or to Arno, I don't think.

Kris Hampton  57:27

 Right.

Hazel Findlay  57:28

 Maybe they will soon, but

Kris Hampton  57:30

I think it's I think it's shifting in that direction and I'm really happy to see it because I think we can all work together. You know, I started as just a physical coach, physical trainer, but but I've always been interested in this side of it as well and, and everything- the PT side, the strength side, the weightlifting, the I mean, I want to know a little bit about all of it. And that's why I reach out to people like you and to Arno to talk about these things because I want to know more and I want to give it to the people who are looking to me for how to make their fingers stronger.

Hazel Findlay  58:08

Yeah, totally. I mean, if you're gonna be a physical coach, you find this a lot in the normal world as well, because you find these people who are fitness coaches and life coaches.

Kris Hampton  58:19

Right, right

Hazel Findlay  58:19

 Because a lot of the reasons why people can't just get fit themselves isn't because they are lacking....you know, all you have to do is go on the internet and get a training program, or just know that you should be going running three times a week and doing this, this and this, but the what they lack is the motivation andnthey have a bunch of mental obstacles.

Kris Hampton  58:38

Right. 

Hazel Findlay  58:38

So tons of fitness coaches are actually just life coaches to some extent and I feel like that's what's happening with you as well.

Kris Hampton  58:46

Yeah, that's a lot of what we do. We joke about it all the time. But, but frankly, it's a lot of what we do, and I enjoy doing it. You know, I think it's hugely important. You said a couple of things while we were talking that I really just want to highlight before we wrap this up.

Kris Hampton  59:02

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  59:03

 You know, one, you, you've mentioned the word "practice" a couple of times, that these are all things that you you practice, you know. And I assume to some degree, you came about this because you were fairly good at it naturally, you know, that, that this is something you sort of fell into and and i think that can be misinterpreted, that Hazel's just good at getting into the right mindset. You know, but I think if you look back at it, if you take a look like Malcolm Gladwell would or any of these people would, you can see that you've spent a lot of time actually practicing it, even if you didn't know that's what you were doing at the time and you are so good at it now because you've spent all this time practicing it. I think that's super important to highlight, that you can practice these things and that they're not going to happen overnight. You're not going to listen to this podcast, get on your project and be perfect at it.

Hazel Findlay  1:00:08

Yeah, totally. Um, yeah, I'm really glad you said that, because there's a few things going on there and, and I was chatting to my friend Jen about this yesterday as well is that it's difficult coaching people sometimes because people tend to think in black and white and they tend to have a fixed mindset. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:29

Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  1:00:30

 So they'll say that "I'm a scared climber" or "I'm not good at that the mental side of climbing".

Kris Hampton  1:00:37

Right

Hazel Findlay  1:00:37

 They'll label themselves as such, and then focus on what they're good at. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:41

Right.

Hazel Findlay  1:00:41

 And this is super fixed and it, it's the most limiting thing you can ever do when you're climbing. And I've seen myself do a little bit, you know, I'm not so good at bouldering. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:52

Right.

Hazel Findlay  1:00:52

 But this thing is I still go bouldering to get better at it. But, you know, it's it's the and they go, "Hazel's good at that". 

Kris Hampton  1:00:59

Right.

Hazel Findlay  1:01:00

 And, you know, like you're saying, it's like, no, actually, I think I'm kind of a normal person. I certainly have very normal, like fear threshold. But I spent a lot of time in my youth, putting myself in those situations, and practicing being there and I didn't necessarily have these techniques or the skills, but I still practiced it. And I thought a lot about it. And I observed a lot of people 

Kris Hampton  1:01:24

And you struggled through it, 

Hazel Findlay  1:01:25

And I struggled, yeah. And the idea is that we're all... always adopt a growth mindset about everything. You can always be better. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:35

Yeah.

Hazel Findlay  1:01:36

You can always put energy into practice, and use trust in that practice. And one day, you'll reap the rewards, but the rewards are secondary. It's the practice that brings all of the joy and the growth and the learning. Umm, but as soon as you have a fixed mindset, you just, you may as well just not step off the ground. It's, it's just kind of a lost cause basically. Like, you'll never get braver at climbing, if you label yourself as a scaredy cat, and do nothing about it.

Kris Hampton  1:02:04

Yeah, yeah, I totally 100% agree. And you said earlier that you're, you're still on the path, you're still on the journey. You know, and I think that's important for people to realize that, that this thing is a long term journey. It's not, it's not a quick fix. This is, this is a, you know, one of the basic building blocks of becoming a better climber, and also enjoying climbing more and having more fun, and, and you're still on that path, even though you're coaching people, even though I'm coaching people, we both are very aware that we're still on the path. 

Hazel Findlay  1:02:51

Yeah totally

Kris Hampton  1:02:51

 I think that's an important thing to highlight, that you're always going to be there. The masters are still on the path.

Hazel Findlay  1:02:57

Yeah it never ends. All this learning never ends.

Kris Hampton  1:03:01

Right.

Hazel Findlay  1:03:01

 Um, but there's, there's like, that's amazing, because you'll never be bored climbing, 

Kris Hampton  1:03:07

Right.

Hazel Findlay  1:03:08

 Even when you your fingers aren't getting stronger anymore, they're just getting weaker, you can still learn in climbing and you can still get better at some things. And that should be a hugely motivating and inspiring thing for anyone in the sport. And, and yeah, and the path goes up and down as well. It's definitely just not getting better. Like if I'm not doing any bold climbing and I'm sport climbing a bunch, I become a complete scaredy cat on when I go back to trad.

Kris Hampton  1:03:40

Sure.

Hazel Findlay  1:03:40

 So you know, it's it's not a linear thing.

Kris Hampton  1:03:42

I'm glad you said that. I've, I've been struggling with that exact thing myself a little bit. In that I used to be, I used to trac climb a lot more than I sport climbed or bouldered, and then everything shifted over to sport climbing and bouldering. And when I was trad climbing a lot, I was mentally really good at it. I very rarely got scared. When I did get scared, it was for a reason and I had ways to talk myself through those situations if it made sense to move through the situation and I felt like I was in a really good place. And now when I go back to trad climbing, it's scary as hell.

Hazel Findlay  1:04:26

Yeah, yeah. 

Kris Hampton  1:04:27

And I know that I have to work my way back through that. So you can you can be really, you can be in a really great place with something and then if you don't continue to practice it, you're gonna have to start from a lower spot and that's totally okay.

Hazel Findlay  1:04:43

Yeah, I think it's really good sometimes, for people to use the same thinking that they use for their physical training and apply it to their mental training.

Kris Hampton  1:04:54

 Yeah, I agree. 

Hazel Findlay  1:04:54

So, for example, um you would never train your fingers and then expect your fingers to be strong for years without continuing up your fingerboarding.

Kris Hampton  1:05:05

 Yep

Hazel Findlay  1:05:05

Equally, you can train your mind, but if you don't continue that practice, you'll get weak again, just like your muscles do. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:12

Yep.

Hazel Findlay  1:05:12

 Equally, like if you train too hard, you'll break them. Same with the mind. If you push too hard, and you go out taking like, epic trad whippers when you've never really fallen at all before, you'll break your mind. 

Hazel Findlay  1:05:24

 And and the the other analogy I really like is, if you read about fingerboarding, your fingers aren't going to get stronger. Equally, if you just read about mental training, your mind doesn't get stronger. You have to put your mind in that place where it gets stronger and train it versus people think because it's in the mind. it is intellectual and it doesn't work like that.

Kris Hampton  1:05:24

Right.

Kris Hampton  1:05:48

Yeah, that's really important. No matter how much you just talk about it. You still have to go there. You still have to struggle a little bit. 

Hazel Findlay  1:05:55

Yeah, totally.

Kris Hampton  1:05:57

 Practice.

Hazel Findlay  1:05:57

 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:05:59

 Yeah. So I really appreciate you taking the time out to sit down and have this conversation because I know these can be nebulous and, you know, it's hard to pin this stuff down and put it in a way that people will listen to it, but I think you do a great job with that. So

Hazel Findlay  1:06:18

Cool. Thanks a lot. No, it's been an interesting conversation. Yeah, thanks for inviting me.

Kris Hampton  1:06:22

How can how can people find you online?

Hazel Findlay  1:06:25

Um, Instagram is @hazel_findlay. And Facebook's just my name and I have a website as well. Just Google my name and you'll find it so

Kris Hampton  1:06:37

And they can reach out to you for coaching through there?

Hazel Findlay  1:06:39

Totally. Yeah, yeah, they can email me about coaching and I also have a little Facebook page as well for this kind of related stuff called Mindful Climbing, um where I... I'm not super good at maintaining it, but there's some interesting stuff on there.

Kris Hampton  1:06:56

Cool. Awesome. I appreciate it Hazel. Thanks.

Hazel Findlay  1:06:59

 Cool, thanks a lot

Kris Hampton  1:06:59

You know, these ideas of flow and mental mastery are tough to completely digest sometimes, but Hazel is able to make it relatable and easy to follow and I think that's really the hallmark of a great coach. So thanks again to Hazel for taking the time to sit down and talk with me. I know she was busy while she was here in Lander for the International Climbers Festival. And it was just a really fun conversation to me, so I appreciate it. And after she mentioned the book, "The Inner Game of Tennis", at the beginning of our conversation, I asked her for a recommended reading list. And this month, I'm giving that reading list to our patrons along with a bonus episode from fan favorite Steve Bechtel. And if you aren't a patron already, you can join us at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast and for as little as $1 a month you'll get BONUS episodes of the new We Scream Like Eagles podcast, and there are some rewards there depending on how much you're giving per month as well. So we hope to see you guys over there. And you can also see both Steve Bechtel and I in Salt Lake on October 27 through the 29th. We'll be doing the Performance Climbing Coach Seminar together along with Neely Quinn, Tyler Nelson, Charlie Manganiello. So check that out at climbstrong.com and sign up now. Bozeman, Montana, I will see you guys in November. And if you have not yet checked out our Process Journals and our new Applied Body Tension ebook, between the two of them they might be the most efficient way to ensure results from your climbing practice and and I'm not saying that lightly. I think it's true. Go find Hazel on the internets. HazelFindlay.com Check out her Facebook group, reach out to her for coaching if you need it. She's pretty great and and I imagine you'll see great results working with her. And you know where to find us, PowerCompanyClimbing.com,  @PowerCompanyClimbing on the Facebooks, the Pinterest, the Instagrams but never never never ever on the Twitters because we don't tweet. We scream like eagles.