Episode 59: Mental Fitness with Alex Honnold and The Warriors Way

Fresh off of his audacious free solo of "Freerider," Alex Honnold sat down with Arno Ilgner and Jeff Lodas from The Warrior's Way to discuss his mental preparation.  Arno asked me to record the conversation, and though I was running around The Salt Palace like crazy, I got it on tape for all of you to hear.  

Two mental fitness giants, discussing a topic that is, at best, tough to pin down.  Alex has done an amazing job of reflecting on what it is that makes him different, and is able to articulate it better in every interview I hear him in.  This one is no different. 

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:33

What's up everybody, I'm your host Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 59 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by Powercompanyclimbing.com. You guys, I am exhausted. I feel like I've criss crossed the country multiple times in the last couple of months. I largely feel that way because I have, and it's definitely wearing on me. But it's, I can see an end in sight and all of the events that we've been to, all of the workshops we've done, have been a ton of fun. Just wrapped up 24 Hours of Horseshoe Hell, which, as always was ridiculous. So thanks, everybody out there for making that what it was. And I'm just moved, took all of our furniture from Cincinnati, drove a moving truck across to Lander and we just unloaded that into the house this morning. So it's been a little bit of craziness, going to start putting together a training space. At the new place, we've got a giant garage, that's going to be training. The Machine Shop, I think I'm gonna call it, so I'm excited about that. And then I leave here on a few days from now, leave again to go to Rocktoberfest, where I'll be emceeing again, one of my favorite events of the year. If you guys are coming, register online, at rrgcc.org and you get a discount on your admission. So jump online and do that early. I'm also going to be doing a live podcast in the Red on Saturday, October 14 at 8pm at Land of the Arches. Going to be doing a Board Meeting, so all the coaches are going to be there, Nate and Paul and Blake and we're not exactly sure what we're going to discuss yet. I'm going to poll our Facebook community for that and we'll have a topic for you by the next time this this podcast goes out. So I'll let you know what that's going to be. And then October 27, through the 29th, I'm in Salt Lake for the Climb Strong Performance Coaching Seminar, where I'll be talking about growth mindset and how to put practice into your climbing training sessions. I think that's going to be a ton of fun. I'm really looking forward to working with the coaches out there and you can sign up for that at climbstrong.com. And then November 14th through the 17th at Spire in Bozeman, so I'm definitely stoked to meet all the Montana climbers out there. We've got a pretty big contingency in Bozeman already, so I'm excited to get to come out and work with you guys. And again, that's November 14 through the 17th. And today, I'm just I've got a an episode that I recorded but did not participate in. I did... I recorded this at Outdoor Retailer this year. Things were crazy hectic, so I was running around getting some sponsor things done and talking to other people and Arno Ilgner was going to be talking with Alex Honnold and I agreed to record that session for them, because I knew it was going to be a great conversation and it was. So Arno and his partner Jeff Lodas with the Warriors Way sat down with with Alex shortly after his Freerider solo to talk about the the mental side of it, and what went into that. And I think you're gonna really enjoy it. So I'm gonna let those guys take it away. And I'll see you on the other side.

Alex Honnold  04:06

Well, I found that by dealing with fears and dealing with my mind through climbing, it does make the rest of life a lot more manageable. 

Arno Ilgner  04:35

 We're obviously interested in mental training because that's what we're been teaching a lot and if there's any example of you know, being really mentally fit and focused, you know, it'd be what you're doing. In other words, being in an extreme situation where you absolutely have to be focused. 

Alex Honnold  04:56

Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  04:56

And so digging into like your perspective of mental training and from our perspective, you know, finding out more for the listener on how they could improve their mental game. For starters, like a really important part of mental training is commitment. And one thing really intrigued me about listening to your interviews, like, particularly in some of the videos, is the time that you take to come to commitment to a free solo, could you speak something toward that?

Alex Honnold  05:29

I don't even know where to start here. It's all like such big, big things. Because I mean, it's funny, I mean, when I was younger, and starting to learn how to trad climb, I mean, I learned a lot about commitment from reading your book, actually, from "The Rock Warrior's Way" with like, if you're going to do it, give it 100% or don't do it. But you know, basically, like, once you commit, like, flip the switch, and like, engage, you know, because I had before that I had been trad climbing much more timidly, where I basically would like climb until I got scared and then try to fumble in a piece of gear and like was kind of gripped the whole time. And then that gave me a lot more purposeful, like, okay, climb to a stance, place a piece, give it 100%, like, you know, just be a little bit more either on or off, you know, and if I'm not comfortable, don't do it, or like it, I'm gonna do it, really do it. And with free soloing, though, you know, I feel sort of the same way. Like, if I'm not comfortable, then I'll put more preparation in or do whatever else. But then when it's time, then I give it 100% for sure. But it's the like, getting to that point of feeling, feeling comfortable, I mean, that's sort of like the that's the long process.

Arno Ilgner  06:24

Yeah, it's almost like, you know, 100% commitment to preparation, you know, and what does that involve?

Alex Honnold  06:30

I mean, the mental preparation for me is like, I mean, months or potentially years of like, thinking about a route and sort of envisioning it and like, just fantasizing, imagining, I mean, whatever else, you know, like running it over in your mind over and over, and seeing if that seems scary or if that seems like a bad idea, or imagining what it would feel like or just sort of, you know, like, letting it unfold in your mind. And certainly for Freerider it took a long time to even think it was possible, you know what I mean?

Arno Ilgner  06:55

 Right.

Alex Honnold  06:55

 Like, for years I'd think about it and be like, that'd be so cool to do. But then when I actually thought about the nitty gritty of like doing it, I'd be like, that's fucked up. Like, I don't want to do that.

Arno Ilgner  07:04

Yeah. Because, from my perspective, we all have comfort zones, we have a stress zone outside of that and the way we grow our comfort zone is through experience. 

Alex Honnold  07:13

Yeah, for sure

Arno Ilgner  07:13

 So part of your preparation is just a ton of free soloing to broaden that experience.

Alex Honnold  07:18

 I've talked about that a lot with like growing the comfort zone. I wonder if I also got that from your book actually? Haha I probably did. 

Arno Ilgner  07:24

When we approach mental training, we're looking at committing attention to thinking processes, so you can use the qualities of your mind to make sure that you're gathering information and making appropriate risk decisions, but then being able to set that aside and commit attention to action like to the body. From what I understand, you did a lot of preparation for like Moonlight Buttress but then maybe almost felt like when you went to Half Dome, that you that that much preparation was taking away from some of the challenge.

Alex Honnold  07:55

 Yeah, yeah

Arno Ilgner  07:55

But then you find yourself a little bit over, in over your head.

Alex Honnold  07:58

 Yeah, for sure. No, that's a very good analysis of it. Yeah. Yeah, because with Moonlight, I prepared so much that I had it, it was all just perfect execution. I just had to go up there and do it, you know, and it felt great when I did. I felt totally felt super solid. Part of it, though, is just that the Half Dome, the wall is too big to just go up and work by yourself and like, memorize in the same way. So I was like, well, I can't really work on it the same way, so instead, I'm gonna just like do it as like this adventurous experience. But then the adventurous experience turned out to be quite scary. Now I've kind of gotten the full spectrum, because coming back to El Cap this year, even though it's an even bigger wall, and even more complicated, I just like put the time in and like made it feel comfortable. 

Arno Ilgner  08:36

Exactly. And one thing that though, I think is really important in mental training is finding a way for it not just to work in climbing, but to bridge it to other areas of our lives, like you have a nonprofit, you're in a relationship or in and out of a relationship, whatever your situation might be. 

Alex Honnold  08:54

I'm in

Arno Ilgner  08:54

And that's a different kind of challenge for commitment, right?

Alex Honnold  08:58

Mmm hmm

Arno Ilgner  08:58

So when you think about commitment, being able to commit in climbing, how does that translate to these other endeavors?

Alex Honnold  09:06

Actually, I mean, to me, the the closest translation is with public speaking, actually, because I used to be so gripped with public speaking. And I feel like when you go in front of a crowd, it's sort of the same deal where you just have to flip the switch and just engage and it's like, okay, it's time to commit, because like, you can't go in front of a crowd and kind of half ass it with like, "Hey, you know, I'm just, I'm just here to chat a little bit", you know. It's like terrible. You just have to go up there and own it and be like, "Hello, my name is Alex. And I'm here to give you a show", you know, and it's like, I mean, to me, that's probably the most concrete example of like translating climbing to other parts of my life.

Jeff Lodas  09:41

In the Enormocast, you talked about struggling to, or being ready to bring the nonprofit into the world, you know, having some doubts about its effectiveness or other aspects of it. And, you know, I'm just thinking like, "Oh, you know, mental training could address that too."  When you come to a point of being like, "Oh, I'm not good enough to do this thing.", you do is a process by which you make yourself

Alex Honnold  10:07

Yeah. Totally.

Jeff Lodas  10:09

Big enough or resolve those doubts, essentially, you know, and it seems like you're at a point,

Alex Honnold  10:14

 For sure. I'd have to think about it more to sort of see exactly where the doubts are, what exactly it is that makes me uncomfortable about it and then yeah, and then address them. I mean, but that, I mean, you're totally right, that I should sort of apply that same process. But just, you know, I just haven't. I've been putting too much effort into other other things.

Jeff Lodas  10:30

Absolutely.

Arno Ilgner  10:31

Part of what really seems to get into the way of being mentally focused is like, ego and things that keep us from being our authentic self. And when, when you describe like public speaking, you need to just own it and speak with authority and be genuine. And that seems so difficult for many people. I've struggled with that myself, you know. So where does that...how do you access that without having, because people say that, while you don't have a lot of ego, and like you can be genuine and authentic, is that something that's just been natural all your life? Or did you have to develop that? Or? Why isn't ego a bigger part?

Alex Honnold  11:12

I don't know. I mean, I don't even know like, I mean, I've never even really thought about it. But I mean, when you talk about authentic self, or I mean, I'm, like always the same, basically, in interviews and film and in life, like I am me, you know, like, I'm just one version of me, that's pretty much always the same. And I've changed over time, obviously, I've like, learned and grown. I'm like, a better communicator now. And I'm, like, a kinder person than I was 10 years ago. But, um, but I pretty much always like in any interview or anything, like whether it's, you know, written or verbal, or like, in front of a camera or not, like, I'm pretty much always the same. And I don't know, I mean, that's just the way I am. It's just 

Arno Ilgner  11:50

Okay.

Alex Honnold  11:51

 I mean, well I don't know, like, I know, I've heard that people struggle with that, that when people are like, on camera, they can't be normal, or they can't be natural. Like, I don't know, it's just not a thing for me. I mean, but I think from part of it, it's just easier to just be yourself just to act totally normal all the time. Like I you know, for me, it's hard to like put on a show, like an act, you know.

Jeff Lodas  12:09

Exactly. 

Alex Honnold  12:10

I don't know

Jeff Lodas  12:11

Totally,

Arno Ilgner  12:11

Yeah, it's, it's harder, but still, it's like, when we, when we develop our egos, it's like, it feels threatened and fearful, you know, for that, our that image to, to be criticized,

Alex Honnold  12:25

Maybe I, maybe I just have never really given a shit, you know, like what people think or if I'm going to be criticized. I mean, I do care a little bit like, you know, I care about the opinion of my peers, and like, I don't want to totally embarrass myself in some presentation in front of a group or something. But in general, like, I don't really care if I get criticized for things. I'm like, as long as I feel comfortable with my decisions, and you know, as long as I feel good about it, then I'm like, I mean, maybe that's the ultimate example of ego. You know, as long as I feel good, then it's all good. You know, like, I just care about the self. But I don't know. I mean, it's just...I don't know.

Arno Ilgner  12:57

Okay, do you....like, you've been said to be "No Big Deal Honnold".  Like, why why do you think that the free soloing that you do, which is a big deal, is not a big deal? And where does that come from? Is it humility? Or is it self deprecation? And 

Alex Honnold  13:19

Well I think it's, it's partially just that, um, I mean, bringing it back to Freerider again, like, so I thought of this for years as the coolest thing that would ever be done. I'm like, this is the future of the sport. This is visionary. This is crazy. But then by the time I put in enough work to actually do it, it seemed totally normal. You know, like it was now within my comfort zone, it seems reasonable. It seems normal. And so then I do it, and I'm like, well now it's normal. It's no longer the like, craziest thing that's ever been done. But I think that's sort of the natural process of like to make something possible, you like or, like, once you have made something possible, it's no longer you know, by definition, it's no longer impossible. 

Arno Ilgner  13:53

Yes, it's no longer a big deal. 

Alex Honnold  13:54

Yeah, you've like taken it off the pedestal and it's now just like a normal thing.

Jeff Lodas  13:58

You know, to address that issue of public speaking, like, if you go up in front of a group of people and speak to something that is close to your heart that you know well, I think it's much less anxiety producing, then if you go up there and try to talk out your ass. 

Alex Honnold  14:11

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So and yeah, I have the benefit of always talking about climbing, which, you know, I've been deeply immersed in for 20 years. So it's super easy just to go up and talk about climbing. 

Jeff Lodas  14:20

And you know, if you extend the analogy, like in terms of getting on a route that you maybe haven't prepared for properly, you're taking the risk in the same kind of way where you're not, you don't have the background. Uou don't have enough information to know whether or not you're going to be able to climb that route or, or say something intelligent.

Alex Honnold  14:39

Yeah, it's all about the preparation for sure. I mean, so much of life is practice, you know, like, you just need to practice.

Arno Ilgner  14:44

And I think putting in the work.

Alex Honnold  14:46

Yeah,

Arno Ilgner  14:46

 Right?

Alex Honnold  14:46

 For sure. 

Arno Ilgner  14:47

Theory does play a part in it, right? And you you've mentioned in your book that you're fearful just like everybody else, but it seems like that preparation puts fear in its place, so that action can, it can be no big deal in a sense, because you're focused on just the execution. There is, if you've done the preparation, then thinking process is going to be diminished, less chance to interfere.

Alex Honnold  15:13

 Yeah. For sure

Arno Ilgner  15:13

And you can focus just on the execution of engaging your body. And so you mentioned about mental armor as being

Alex Honnold  15:21

I actually don't really think of it in those terms anymore. 

Arno Ilgner  15:23

No more?

Alex Honnold  15:24

 Yeah it's funny, because the whole mental armor, like the shield type thing, was sort of something I thought about more as when I was younger, and like, yeah, it's, I wrote about that in my book with the chapter about Half Dome

Arno Ilgner  15:33

 Right.

Alex Honnold  15:34

 Now, I actually prefer not to, like, think of it as a shield. I prefer to think of like expanding my comfort zone until it does feel comfortable, you know, because the problem with like, having a shield is that like, as soon as your shield cracks, then you're kind of hosed, you know.

Arno Ilgner  15:46

Right.

Alex Honnold  15:46

 I would prefer to be like, totally comfortable with the whole situation all the way through and not have to, like, boost myself up for it somehow, you know, just like go up there when it feels natural.

Arno Ilgner  15:55

I think that's an important evolution to make, because, like, what do you do if that cracks? It's like, if you're, if you're on a long solo like that, it's going to be a lot of time to pay attention,

Alex Honnold  16:07

Exactly.

Arno Ilgner  16:07

 A lot of stress that builds and then all of a sudden

Alex Honnold  16:09

The thing about building up a shield or something like that is it kind of makes sense if you're like a skier, maybe and you're going to huck some big cliff and that's it. You just have to like, go once, stick the landing and you're done. But with climbing, yeah, if you're trying to stay in the zone for four hours, you can't just like, build yourself up. And I mean, or even if you're like soloing a sport route or something, you could like, listen to a bunch of angry music, get all fired up and then bust it out before you get scared, you know, because you're like, "I have five minutes of overwhelming stoke. I just need to use it." But like, if you're trying to solo 3000 foot wall, like you can't just like artificially boost yourself up. You have to like feel deeply comfortable with it.

Arno Ilgner  16:42

 Right. And do you listen to music anymore? Like, you said

Alex Honnold  16:46

Yeah, no, on El Cap I listened to music the whole way. I was like totally chilling.

Arno Ilgner  16:49

The whole way? Even through the cruxes? 

Alex Honnold  16:51

 I think I turned it down through the cruxes, so I like couldn't really hear anything.

Alex Honnold  16:55

But um partially though, that's as a timepiece. Because I keep track of my pace that way and have a sense of how long I'm spending on each pitch and things like that. 

Jeff Lodas  17:01

What music did you listen to? 

Alex Honnold  17:03

I was just like, shuffling this playlist of like rock that I like. It's just 

Jeff Lodas  17:06

So it's more like music

Alex Honnold  17:09

It's all an upper yeah, 

Jeff Lodas  17:10

To get you fired up

Alex Honnold  17:10

Yeah, yeah, totally. But that's actually all I listen to in general. I only listen to music thats like, "RRRahhhh!". You know, that's I mean, but that's also just because that's what I listened to in high school and I just like like it.

Jeff Lodas  17:20

Totally and that makes sense because you know, you're generally known to be a fairly even keel type of person, then you might need a little bit of like kick

Jeff Lodas  17:27

To say "Okay let's go!"

Alex Honnold  17:27

A little dose of something to fire me up

Alex Honnold  17:29

Maybe, maybe. I mean, the only music I listen to is like, "AHHH! LET'S GET SOME!" . I want to get fired up. I want to do some stuff.

Arno Ilgner  17:37

At the same time, at least in your book, you're pointing out that when the climbing got little more serious, you turn it down or turn it off.

Alex Honnold  17:45

Yeah. It's funny, I'm also the same way with like layers, like having clothing on and stuff. When I get to like, harder, like really serious climbing, I want like nothing on me. I want no noise. I want to be like naked on a wall, just like trying my hardest, you know, and I don't like people watching. I just... I don't know, like for me to like, try really hard, I like to be alone and just like, focused. I don't know.

Arno Ilgner  18:05

Yeah. But that that speaks toward everything is a distraction unless you just bring it back to the body and execution of the climbing, right?

Alex Honnold  18:12

Totally.

Arno Ilgner  18:13

 And that's, that's one thing that seems to pop up a lot for people that want to do mental training is they use tricks like listening to music, or even thinking positive that can actually interfere or distract attention from what you actually are doing with the body to execute the movements. 

Alex Honnold  18:32

Mmm hmm. No, yeah, I totally hear that. 

Arno Ilgner  18:37

What about motivation? You know, obviously, there there are two basic types of motivation more intrinsic and extrinsic. Extrinsic is like, have a goal and work toward that, kind of a vision for what you want to do. But intrinsic is, like wanting to be in that stressor of the experience, rather than just at the achievement. How do those play into giving you a vision and and also keeping you present during the climbing, difficult climbing?

Alex Honnold  19:02

I feel, I mean, I don't know, I've never thought about it that much. And actually, I didn't know it was quite defined that way. I thought of extrinsic is more like motivated by external factors, like you know, sponsorship or something.

Arno Ilgner  19:13

It is kind of like that because that that goal is kind of out there, like El Cap or whatever

Alex Honnold  19:17

Yeah, I suppose

Arno Ilgner  19:17

 Is like an external motivator that can give you a vision to work toward,

Alex Honnold  19:22

I mean, half of it was like, I just want to solo El Cap because I'm like, I think that's the coolest thing ever done. But then also, when I thought about it, like the idea of like hanging from fingerlocks 2600 feet off the ground, you know, like, just sounds amazing. You know, like, it's the most outrageous position on Earth. Like, just to be able to like, dangle from those holds and feel comfortable is like so crazy. And I was like, I want to be the dude that's like hanging on those holds, being like, "This is so cool!". You know? So I mean, I suppose that's the intrinsic one,

Arno Ilgner  19:50

That's the intrinsic.

Alex Honnold  19:51

 Just wanting to feel good on the wall. But so I mean, I was definitely a sort of half and half because I mean, there was definitely some extrinsic motivation. I was like, I just I want to be the person that solos El Cap, like, that's cool.

Jeff Lodas  20:02

So what about the timing of those motivations? Like, when you were climbing, did you think about "I want to solo El Cap" or were you thinking "I want to be hanging off those these locks right here"?

Alex Honnold  20:12

While I was climbing, it's all about the like, "This feels amazing" and like, I had, I had a pitch near the top, where as I was climbing The Scotty Burke Offwidth, I was like, "This is the best this pitch has ever been climbed" and then I was like, humility, humility, deep breaths, like, relax, you know, just like, you know, like, don't get carried away, and then like blow foot and fall off, you know, but like, as I was climbing it, I was like, "This pitch has never been climbed better than I'm climbing right now". I was like, "I'm going so fast. And I feel so good." and I was like, "This is fucking awesome", you know, like, "I feel amazing". I mean, you know, I suppose that is sort of the intrinsic, you know, just like, "This feels great!" and like, "What a position!"

Arno Ilgner  20:45

 Yeah, obviously, its intrinsic. It's like you want to be in that experience. And that's, I think it is something that's so many climbers struggle with, because we have a tendency to climb to get to get be done climbing, you know, to get the achievement, to tick off.

Alex Honnold  20:59

Certainly anything I've ever done alpine climbing is like totally extrinsic. You know, you're like, I just want to say that I went to Alaska and climbed something. But then the reality is the whole time you're there, you're like, it's cold and it sucks. Like, why are we here? Yeah, like all of alpinism, I think is extrinsically motivated.

Jeff Lodas  21:15

I think there's for for some people, they do enjoy that suffering.

Alex Honnold  21:19

Well totally yeah, like, I'm really good friends with Colin Haley and he's motivated for alpine climbing the way I am for rock climbing. And like he loves just like hiking in the mountains and like, do that stuff. And I'm just like, "Man, how are you so fired up?", but it's just like, it's interesting hanging out with him, because I'm like, our motivations are like, we're really, really similar people, but he just cares about the mountains in the way that I care about cliffs. And I'm just like, alright, you know? 

Arno Ilgner  21:40

 Yeah, but you've also done some of that in Patagonia, right? 

Alex Honnold  21:43

Yeah, totally. Yeah. 

Arno Ilgner  21:46

We don't have to dig into this question a lot, but, and probably can't, you know, really, to the satisfaction of the listeners, but why is free soloing appealing? And it's very personal for everyone that does it, but most of the listeners are going to say, well, you're crazy to do that. Yet it's a very personal decision and with all the preparation that you do, you know, it can be no big deal, in a sense, because the confidence that comes from that preparation has prepared you for being able to take that risk. 

Alex Honnold  22:21

Yep. So what do you mean like?

Arno Ilgner  22:24

Like, why free soloing for you? And I know, in your book, you said because you were shy and you didn't want to ask for partners.

Alex Honnold  22:30

Yeah, that's just kind of like the superficial thing to start though.

Arno Ilgner  22:30

Yeah.

Alex Honnold  22:32

 But I mean, before that was, was the, like, the aesthetic appeal, you know, like seeing a picture of Peter Croft on The Rostrum in his white painter pants. As a kid, I'm like, that guy is rad, like, what an amazing position, what a crazy place to be. I just always thought it was cool, you know, like, but part of that's just cultural too. Like growing up in California and being like, immersed with stories of the Stone Masters and Yosemite and Joshua Tree, and like, there was just such a big thing around it. You know, like, maybe if I grown up in Europe, I would have been more into sport climbing or whatever. But it's partially just where I was from, and like, how I grew up. I was just like, "That is awesome".

Arno Ilgner  23:05

Yeah, and I think Tommy Caldwell said once just find your niche and do the best you can in it, you know. So we're all kind of drawn toward different disciplines within climbing. 

Arno Ilgner  23:16

Could be, you know, big wall free climbing, or it could be free soloing, it could be sport climbing and so finding...that's again, intrinsic motivation. Finding out what's appropriate for you and for me, and then following through with that, from inside out, being drawn toward whatever that activity is.

Alex Honnold  23:26

Totally.

Alex Honnold  23:36

Bringing it back El Cap which is, sorry, I keep doing it. 

Arno Ilgner  23:40

No, it's fine.

Alex Honnold  23:41

But um, it is interesting, because for years, I was sort of like, um  I shouldn't try to solo El Cap unless I become a stronger climber. Like, I should climb 9a or like climb 14d or, you know, 15a or something, before I  try to take on a challenge like that. And I always sort of felt like, I should be a different kind of climber, which is sort of the like, "Oh, I feel like I should be stronger". But then at a certain point, sort of like in the last year and a half, I was just like, you know what, like, if I'm, I'm never gonna, I might never climb 5.15. I don't really know. But I was kind of like, whether I ever do or don't, it doesn't really change the fact that I can feel comfortable soloing 12+, and I was like, I might as well just focus on like, what I like to do and what I can do, and just like work on that, like play to my strengths rather than like, try to turn myself into some other climber and then come back to it. 

Arno Ilgner  24:21

Right

Alex Honnold  24:22

You know, and so, ultimately, I just worked on El Cap anyway, and did it, even though I still can't climb that hard, you know. I'm still like climbing 14a or b or something. I'm like, "Man, I wish I could climb harder." But I'm like, the reality is that I like doing a lot of volume, so I'm like may as well just like work on El Cap, you know?

Arno Ilgner  24:37

With the core point in our Warrior's Way approach to mental training is attention and attention can be used very differently when you're in a thinking process as opposed to a decision making process and then an action process. So for an example, attention can be in thinking, gathering information, very analytically. But then when you make a decision, it's more feeling based, more intuitive based and that kind of ties into what I've heard you say a lot about, "I'm not feeling it right now". It's like tuning in internally to what's going to be appropriate for you, as opposed to being influenced externally by other people. So is that how you find, especially in free soloing, how you make decisions about whether to go on or not?

Alex Honnold  25:26

I feel like free soloing is 100%, internal. You know, I mean it doesn't matter how much other people tell you to do something, if you, if it fills you with dread to think about soloing something, then I mean, for sure, you're just not going to do it.

Arno Ilgner  25:36

Right. And and then, you know, after all that preparation, making sure you're tapping into that feeling based intuition about an appropriate risk for free soloing, then when you're actually engaged in execution, what is it like to have attention in that execution? What was that experience like for you? Like specifics?

Alex Honnold  26:00

I guess, I mean, to me, I normally describe that as the feeling of emptiness, I guess. You just execute. I mean, when you're talking about execution, you mean the actual physical act of climbing? 

Arno Ilgner  26:10

Yes. Engaging your body.

Alex Honnold  26:11

 Yeah, to me when I when I'm climbing, when I'm doing difficult climbing, and I'm fully committed to it, I'm just, I feel like empty. It's just my body doing the moves. I'm not thinking about anything, I'm not...there's like nothing going on basically. It's just my mind is blank and I'm just performing. I mean, in a lot of ways, that's like the ideal state for, for for climbing, that's kind of what you're what I'm aspiring for.

Arno Ilgner  26:34

Well it's like being in the zone, right? Or being in flow?

Alex Honnold  26:36

Yeah that is the zone, I guess.

Arno Ilgner  26:38

So in other words, in being engaged in thinking while you're executing interrupts that flow or being in the zone? 

Alex Honnold  26:45

Yeah. You don't want to be 

Arno Ilgner  26:46

Empty means you're empty and the intention is to be out of the mind.

Alex Honnold  26:49

Exactly. 

Arno Ilgner  26:50

Yeah.

Alex Honnold  26:51

 Yeah, I mean, specifically thinking about the crux on Freerider, the hardest, you know, 12 moves, this little boulder problem, there was definitely no thought. I just did it exactly the way I always do it on a Mini Traxion, like when I'm working with the rope. I just did it exactly the same. There was no like, "Is that foot right?" and you know, "This hand feels a certain way". I just did it. You know, it was pretty amazing.

Jeff Lodas  27:12

When people say, hear the word "empty", they often think nothing, right? My version of feeling empty is feeling full, actually, in terms of sensory experience, being open to, to the feeling, the sound, the texture. Is that something that you can connect to?

Alex Honnold  27:30

No, like, no, I feel I feel sort of the opposite about it. Because like, well, I don't know. I mean, because I'm not like thinking about the texture, right? 

Jeff Lodas  27:37

Not thinking about it

Alex Honnold  27:38

I'm not hearing any sounds. I'm definitely not, you know, like, if there were birds behind me, I wouldn't know.

Jeff Lodas  27:42

You wouldn't know.

Alex Honnold  27:43

I'm just like frickin doing it. And actually, I've had that experience on the gritstone in the UK. I redpointed this E7 or E8 or something, it's like a 12+  slab with no protection and it culminates in this like hard deadpoint to this hold, like really small hold, and you basically jump to the end and as I was doing it, there was a photographer taking some pictures, and there were a bunch of people like hanging out watching and I stuck the final hold, that you know, it's like a big move and I built up, did the move and stuck it and then I sort of like came back to my senses, you know. I was like out of the zone again and sort of looked around and I was like "Where did everybody go? and like "Why did the photographer stop taking pictures?" and turns out this guy had fallen just around the corner from me and like compound fractured his femur, and there was like this dude, like, screaming around the corner who just had this terrible accident. Never noticed it. Didn't hear it. Like I just did my route like without realizing that like the crowd had like, run away to go help this guy. And then like, as soon as I finished the route, you know, we all went over and like helped carry him out a helicopter. It was totally crazy. But um, but I was like, wow, I did not hear somebody like scream, breaking his leg like right next to me while I was doing.... you know, it is like kind of an example of like, my mind is totally shutting... well...yeah, shutting down to some extent because I'm just like executing.

Jeff Lodas  28:49

Yeah and shutting down certain senses. 

Alex Honnold  28:52

Yeah, exactly. 

Jeff Lodas  28:52

Thinking, hearing, all the unnecessary stuff

Alex Honnold  28:54

In order to heighten other senses.

Jeff Lodas  28:56

Exactly. And what are those

Alex Honnold  28:57

You're just pulling down on your frickin fingertips as hard as you can

Jeff Lodas  28:59

So it's feeling in your sense.... your touch, in your fingertips. 

Alex Honnold  29:03

No it's like just the execution, you know. Just the, like doing the movements properly, like weighting your feet.

Jeff Lodas  29:08

Like kinestetic

Alex Honnold  29:09

 Yeah, exactly. Like staying balanced, keeping your body in a good position, like, holding things but not too tightly, you know what I mean?

Alex Honnold  29:15

Like, being strong, but not over gripping. Like, yeah, I don't know. 

Jeff Lodas  29:15

Oh yeah

Arno Ilgner  29:19

And that's all feeling based and sensory.

Alex Honnold  29:21

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Knowing how hard you have to hold the hold to stay on it, but not so hard that you're getting more pumped than you need to. I mean, that's like, I mean, how do you quantify that? You're just like, I don't know, just like I'm holding it just right

Jeff Lodas  29:31

You're purely in the moment, without thinking. 

Alex Honnold  29:33

Yeah, 

Jeff Lodas  29:34

That's how you quantify it.

Arno Ilgner  29:35

Yeah, what you're describing is like, getting into the flow state, right? The zone.

Arno Ilgner  29:39

 It's something that the athletes talk about. It's, they love it when they are in it, but they don't know how to replicate it. How are you replicating it?

Alex Honnold  29:39

Yeah for sure

Alex Honnold  29:40

 Am I replicating it? I don't know. Haha

Arno Ilgner  29:50

Well, if you...I would think you would be if you're on a free solo for that's, you know, four hours long.

Alex Honnold  29:56

Um... I don't know

Arno Ilgner  29:58

There's some intentionality there, that something you're actually doing that leads you into the flow state more intentionally rather than haphazardly.

Alex Honnold  30:10

I don't know. Honestly the... I mean, the thing for me about entering the flow state or something is partially it's just because it happens when it's required to happen, like when you have to. And the thing with like a four hour freesolo is like on the easy terrain, yeah, you can think about whatever you want to. But then pretty soon you get to hard climbing again, and then you just have to re-engage, you know.

Arno Ilgner  30:28

It's like an absorbed flow state because of the situation?

Alex Honnold  30:32

Yeah and so it's not as if I'm, like, consciously flipping a switch on and off. It's more just that like, as I get to hard stuff, you just have to pay attention again.

Arno Ilgner  30:40

Right. But a lot of climbers, they have to pay attention, but then they get distracted anyways haha.

Alex Honnold  30:46

Haha well I just don't even know. Like, what's wrong with them?

Arno Ilgner  30:50

Well that's what mental training is all about, is like how to 

Alex Honnold  30:53

No, no  I'm probably, I'm probably the same way though. I mean, when I'm trying to redpoint a hard sport route. It's like something I care about, but you're not necessarily 100% in it, you know. I can still occasionally be like, "Oh, I didn't grab that hold quite right. And I just like, didn't really know and then I sort of fell off" and then you kind of know that you didn't give it 100% effort, but you're like, "Well, I mean..... it just...." and then you make up random excuses wih like, "Well, it didn't feel right." And you're like yeah, but you didn't quite give it 100% either

Arno Ilgner  31:18

Right

Alex Honnold  31:19

 But with soloing, it's like you always give it 100% because you're gonna frickin die. 

Arno Ilgner  31:24

Well, that kind of brings up like no-fall/yes-fall zones. Like do you have challenges when going from being in like no-fall zones in free soloing when you go into like rope climbing or like sport climbing?

Alex Honnold  31:39

So when you go into sport climbing, where you're in yes-fall zones because of how it's bolted and so forth, no problem staying committed, pushing through doubts and taking the falls, or

Alex Honnold  31:39

Yeah, no, actually even in soloing there are no-fall and yes-fall zones. I mean, so interestingly, soloing Half Dome, the crux of the Higbee Dihedral, there's a 12a boulder problem at the bottom. It's a total yes-fall zone. It's like above this picnic table size ledge. If you fell off it you would like probably be totally fine. So I mean, you know you think about soloing Half Dome as like "Oh it's totally outrageous" and I mean, there are.... the vast majority if you fell off, you're going to die, but I mean, the hardest boulder problem on the whole route is right above a ledge. And like when I soloed Astroman the first time, the 11c boulder problem is above this, like sloping ledge with a big hand crack behind it, so I always felt like I fell off, I might be able to just snag the hand crack as I hit the ledge because it's not that high. You know, I don't know if that's realistic or not, but in the back of my mind, I was sort of like, "Oh, you might be able to self arrest". And so I mean, I definitely think about that with soloing. Like, there are areas where if you fall, you're for sure gonna die instantly and then there's some areas where you're like, "I might be okay", you know? And I'm, you know, yeah, I sort of evaluate the fall, the consequences, like whether I'm roped up or not, you know.

Alex Honnold  32:51

Well, actually, I sort of probably have the opposite problem, where it's hard for me to get out of my, like overly controlled soloing style of climbing when I switch back to like, right now I'm trying to get back into like, hard bouldering. hard sport climbing, like trying to be strong again. But part of that means giving up a degree of control and just like going to the death, you know. Being like right on that edge where you're, you honestly don't know if you're gonna stick the move or not, but you just try your hardest anyway. And I find it's hard for me to like, just try that hard, you know, because I'm so used to doing things with like a degree of reserve and like a certain precision and control. You know, like, I don't like to feel wildly out of control. And so for me to sport climb harder, a big part of it is like relearning how to, like be explosive and be bolder, and like jump for things and like hope that I hold on and like you just never know. You're like, "Maybe I will, maybe I won't".

Arno Ilgner  33:39

 And it's like, so we, we all can get like, really great at a certain type of climbing, but then there's a downside when we go to another discipline

Alex Honnold  33:49

Totally

Arno Ilgner  33:50

 But then it takes practice again and then

Alex Honnold  33:52

And in theory, the more you you switch back and forth, the easier it is to transition between them and to be able to flip that switch,

Arno Ilgner  33:58

Right. So do you do any like morning practices or some sort of practices for your mind, like anything from yoga to Tai Chi, or meditation or things like that? And if you do, do they help?

Alex Honnold  34:14

Um, no, I've never really done any kind of specific mental thing, though, over the last year, I've been better about like doing stretching every day. I mean, that's, that's basically just for my body, you know, to keep things simple and stay flexible. But um, but I have found that spending 10 minutes, you know, by myself, or like listening to music, sort of, like gently stretching is sort of a nice, I wouldn't say it's meditative, but you know, it's a nice way to like, reflect on things and like, have a moment to myself. But, you know, but no, I've never, like intentionally done any kind of mental training like that.

Jeff Lodas  34:46

That one neuroscientist that put you in a functional MRI, showed you a bunch of scary images. Would you talk a little bit about your interpretation of the meaning of those results?

Alex Honnold  34:56

Yeah, so I mean, basically the it was a feature article on Nautilus Magazine that sort of found that my amygdala didn't activate under stimulus, the stimulus being, you know, exciting images in an MRI. 

Arno Ilgner  35:09

Haha yeah.

Alex Honnold  35:11

I sort of found that to mean, I mean, so then the question is, is that like nature or nurture? Like, do I just not have an amygdala? I mean, I do physically have one, but um does it not work or did it stop working because I've like slowly bludgeoned it to death through like years of soloing?

Jeff Lodas  35:25

Training

Alex Honnold  35:26

 Yeah, well, I prefer to think of is stepping on my amygdala over and over and grinding it into dust with the heel of my boot.

Jeff Lodas  35:32

Haha

Alex Honnold  35:33

 But no, I mean, I bet the reality is sort of half and half. That like I was probably less sensitive, you know, I bet my amygdala when I was born, was already a little bit shriveled and a little bit tired, and just like not quite as responsive as maybe the average amygdala and then through 10 years of consistently pushing myself as a soloist, I think my amygdala just gave up and died, you know, now it's done. 

Arno Ilgner  35:56

Either that or you still have the same amygdala, maybe a little bit less sensitive than the average person, but you've done a lot of practice and have experiences to develop your rational brain

Alex Honnold  36:09

Totally

Arno Ilgner  36:09

To help keep it in check in a sense

Alex Honnold  36:11

Yeah no, I mean, I think that's basically the case, because I know that 10 years ago, I was a lot more afraid of different things and now I'm like, much more calm. But you know, when you're looking at a picture of something, I'm like, why would you ever be afraid of a picture? Like, who cares?

Jeff Lodas  36:23

So can you speak to the, to what that process looked like, in your experience? Like how 

Alex Honnold  36:29

In the MRI?

Jeff Lodas  36:30

No. In your 10 years of 

Alex Honnold  36:32

Oh oh...desensitizing myself. I don't know. I mean, it's just, you know, for me, it's all unfolded through the course of soloing. So like, you know, I'm sure you could learn the same lessons through any other sport or through any other process, but for me, it was all through soloing. And that basically just meant starting on easy routes that seem totally exciting. I mean, when I started soloing, I thought that, you know, it was all about perfection, like, if you made any mistake, you would die. And then over the years, I sort of realized that that's not totally the case. I mean, you can slip a little, you know, you can like blow foot, you can, like, have rocks fall off, as long as you don't fall off yourself, then it's like okay. It doesn't have to be like, 100% perfect. It just has to be, you know, 97% perfect. And so, sort of working through that experience, you know, just like having more and more of those sorts of things happen and like broadening my comfort zone soloing. It's just been a long process. 

Jeff Lodas  37:23

Yeah.

Alex Honnold  37:24

I mean, I've soloed so many pitches, you know, like so many easy pitches.

Jeff Lodas  37:29

You know, taking climbing as a training for the mind and then applying it to something else, do you find that this skill that you've developed helps you in other areas of your life? 

Alex Honnold  37:41

Well, I found that, that by dealing with fears, and dealing with my mind through climbing, it does make the rest of life a lot more manageable. Like, certainly the anxiety that people feel associated with traveling, I don't really get that much. You know, like, I'm never like afraid on planes. Like, I feel like it just keeps life in perspective. You're just like, I'm pretty unstressed, about things. I'm like, "Well, if you're not going to die, like what is there to be stressed about?"

Arno Ilgner  38:05

Haha. And motivation, you know, can shift from one discipline to another. Like after an achievement like El Cap, you know, it's not just what's the next bigger free solo? It could be "How about pushing myself on hard sport climbing" or something.

Alex Honnold  38:22

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm hoping to do. For sure.

Arno Ilgner  38:23

Yeah. Do you see as you go through your climbing life, in your life in general, how your motivation can shift, you know, to new things and still be inspired by those new things?

Alex Honnold  38:35

I mean, I think, even over the last 10 years that I've been soloing a whole lot, I mean, my motivation is frequently shifting throughout the year, like now it's bouldering season and now it's sport climbing season and now it's, you know, big wall/soloing season. But um, I mean, I think that's part of what what I love about climbing so much is like that constantly shifting motivation.

Arno Ilgner  38:55

Yeah, and, and that's again, intrinsic, right? Because you're you're not asking somebody else, even though this might might be bouldering season, are you tuning into yourself about wanting to go bouldering? 

Alex Honnold  39:06

Yeah, I mean, part of that also just has to do with the seasons, you know. You're like, "Oh, it's cold, like, I want to go boulder", then like, "Oh, it's really long days. I want to like use them and like climb big things". You know, just it's all, it's just following the seasons, I guess, but

Arno Ilgner  39:19

 Could be seasonal based, what your friends are doing, but also what you feel inspired to do yourself 

Alex Honnold  39:25

Totally, totally. 

Arno Ilgner  39:28

What are some books that have influenced you? I mean, you already mentioned.

Alex Honnold  39:31

Haha yeah the Rock Warrior's Way. Haha I just keep plugging your book. 

Arno Ilgner  39:35

There are obviously, other books out there, many books written on mental training.

Alex Honnold  39:39

Yeah but I haven't actually read that many. I mean, I read the Rock Warrior's Way like at an important juncture for me, you know, because it was when I was learning how to trad climb and it was probably the first thing I read on the subject, and then never actually got that into the whole subject. I mean, I've read a little bit about flow, like The Rise of Superman is like sort of a recent Steven Kotler book.

Arno Ilgner  39:57

 Yeah. 

Alex Honnold  39:58

I read that because I was interviewed for it. So I was like in it and he sent me a copy and I was like, cool and I read it. But in general, I think probably because this stuff has always come slightly naturally to me, I haven't like read a lot about fear. Actually, yesterday at the show, somebody gave me a book about fear and overcoming...I don't know, Kristen Ulmer.... I think her name is. She's like a big mountain skier from like the 90s. But anyway, so I'll probably read that. But she was like a former North Face athlete as well, so I was like, Oh, that's cool. But no, no, no, most of my reading was focused on like environmental nonfiction and stuff like that.

Arno Ilgner  40:32

Being being skilled in mentally... being mentally fit, being skilled in that department, like, is there a part of you that like, wants to know a little bit more specifically, like, why that....why you have that ability and what all leads to being able to be focused and mentally fit during the flow? 

Alex Honnold  40:52

No, I mean, honestly, I've never really cared that much. I mean, I think it's one of those things where, like, when you kind of have it, you don't really worry about it that much. Like I worry about physical training a lot more, and I've read more about, about how to get stronger, but it's because I'm not naturally strong. You know, like, for me, it's really hard to be strong and so I've like, looked at a lot of different ways to try to get there and like solicited opinions from tons of people on like, talks about coaching and training and all that type of stuff. I mean, I've put a lot of effort into physical training. I've put like, almost no effort into mental training, but that's just because like, I don't really feel like I have much to gain from more mental training.

Arno Ilgner  41:22

So you're looking at where you're weak. 

Alex Honnold  41:24

Yeah, exactly. 

Arno Ilgner  41:25

And build that up, where, you know, the natural person's response would be the opposite of that.

Alex Honnold  41:30

Yeah I mean, yeah, well, I mean, somebody like Chris Sharma, I bet he's never read anything about training, you know, because he's, like, so physically gifted, that he doesn't really need to. Like, he doesn't really care about like hanging on the hangboard, or doing whatever else, because he's like, "I can just go out and crush rocks to powder with my bare hands", you know, he's like, whatever. But that's just not me, you know. Everybody has different strengths.

Arno Ilgner  41:50

I think we all have a strong draw to our comfort zones and it's, it's helpful to be aware, if we're just falling victim to that and not balancing out the aspect that 

Alex Honnold  42:01

 You don't want to play to your. 

Arno Ilgner  42:01

That makes a broader.

Alex Honnold  42:02

Though it's funny, because sometimes you play to your strengths. I mean, for me, soloing Freerider is playing to my strengths, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, that's not making

Arno Ilgner  42:07

Yeah but you have to balance out the physical part, you know, that, that can help complement your strength, right? 

Alex Honnold  42:14

Wait, what do you mean?

Arno Ilgner  42:15

 Well, you're, if free soloing, Freerider is playing towards your strength,

Alex Honnold  42:21

 Yeah

Arno Ilgner  42:22

You're also looking at your weakness, which is physical training, and building it up so it can complement you

Alex Honnold  42:26

 Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. 

Arno Ilgner  42:28

So when you go and climb towards your strength, then you have this support.

Alex Honnold  42:33

 No, I just meant that, um, you know, I'm all about balancing out weaknesses, and like pursuing things in climbing that you're bad at, so you can be more well rounded, but at the same time, I feel like you're never really going to achieve anything like great in climbing unless you also play to the things that you're best at from time to time. 

Arno Ilgner  42:47

Right.

Alex Honnold  42:47

 Yeah. I mean, that's why Chris Sharma has been like sport climbing and bouldering his whole career because, like, you know, I mean, he loves it, but that's also what he's amazing on. You know, for me, it was soloing. I was kind of like, well, you know, this is something that I probably can do, if I work towards it. I should just like, do that rather than, like, beat my head against 14d/15a for like, years and still suck, you know? 

Arno Ilgner  43:07

It might be time for that now, right?

Alex Honnold  43:08

 Yeah, well now I'm stoked, now I'm stoked. When actually, and honestly, those kinds of training goals lend themselves more towards, like the work schedule I have now. You know, because I basically haven't done any kind of sponsor obligation or work in the last year because I've been focused on climbing and El Cap. And now that I have a lot more appearances and things, you know, the train for two hours in the gym and do a hangboard workout, it's like much more appropriate, you know. And that's like, kind of what it takes to climb 5.15. It's like slightly more intense, more focused training. It's all sort of it, it all fits, you know. Like, I don't have the time to do like high volume endurance training right now anyway, so I'm like, well you know, perfect. Good time to become a sport climber.

Arno Ilgner  43:47

Anyway, that's all I had really, and really appreciate sitting down with you. 

Alex Honnold  43:51

Thank you guys

Arno Ilgner  43:52

And digging into this topic is really interesting to us and we like to see you share your perspective on it, so we really appreciate it.

Alex Honnold  44:03

No thank you. I appreciate your guys's work too, since obviously I used your book. So long ago, I mean, it's you know, you started you have to start somewhere. You know, I'm like, that's, that's where I learned when I was younger. So thanks for that.

Jeff Lodas  44:16

You know, so many people are inspired by what you do. I for one, appreciate that inspiration. 

Alex Honnold  44:24

Thanks. Thanks.

Kris Hampton  44:28

Big thanks to Arno and Jeff and Alex for allowing me to repost this over here. It was fun to get to sit in on part of that conversation. Like I said, I was running around the Salt Palace and getting some things done, so I kind of dipped in and out. But it was really fun to listen to and Alex and I actually had a meeting shortly after, here in Lander, to talk about his training because like he mentioned in here, he wants to rebrand himself as an intensity athlete rather than an endurance athlete. And it was a really interesting conversation, to say the least. Alex isn't a whole lot different from most of us out there in his insecurities and in his challenges. You know, he just happens to be at a much, much higher level on the endurance side of things and, and really understand himself in a way that a lot of people don't in that realm, but once he moves into the the intensity sphere, he doesn't quite understand himself as well. So it was a it was an interesting conversation, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be talking to Nate about that soon and then, you know, give that conversation to our patrons. If you haven't checked out the the patron's site, please do. It's patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. For as little as $1 a month, you can get extra episodes and some other goodies over there, so please check that out. If you are coming to Rocktoberfest, come and find me. Register online. You get a discount our rrgcc.org and live podcast there. Board Meeting. Saturday, October 14 8pm at Land of the Arches. So if you happen to be around the Red, we would love to see you there for that recording. We're also going to have some question and answer afterward and just have a good time. October 27 to 29th, I'll be in Salt Lake City with the Climb Strong Performance Coaching Seminar and find out more about that at climbstrong.com. Then I'll be at Spire in Bozeman, November 14 to 17th and hopefully I see you guys out there somewhere. I've been running around the country, so I've met a lot of you recently and I appreciate everybody who comes up to me and lets me know that they love this thing and what we're doing, and you know, that keeps me going. So thank you guys for that. Take a look at what we've got on the website. Tons of new things are up. We're bringing out new things all the time. Powercompanyclimbing.com You can find us on Facebook. You can find us on the Instagram. You can find us on Pinterest. You cannot and will not ever find us on the Twitter because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.