Eric Hörst | Growing Older, Stronger, Better

In today’s episode, Kris sits down to catch up with fellow climbing coach, Eric Hörst. They chat about how some big life shifts – Eric’s retirement, the success of his nutrition brand, PhysiVantage, and becoming an empty nester – have impacted his climbing and training.

Eric on Calm Like a Bomb, (13a) | Red River Gorge, Kentucky.

Kris mines Eric for tips on how he continues to smartly and safely push the limits of his own climbing performance even in his late 50’s. The two talk about when to commit to a longer-term project versus when it might make more sense to just crank out some quicker sends below your limit.

Eric on The Gift of Grace, (12b) | New River Gorge, West Virginia. Photo: Dan Brayack

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:

• How Eric’s nutrition brand, PhysiVantage, developed from his own needs.

• The “golden age” of route development when Eric FA’d the New River Gorge’s first 13a, “Diamond Life”.

• When and why to take on bigger projects or opt for quicker sends.

• Eric’s plans for tackling projects this fall in the Red River Gorge.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

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Eric Hörst  00:26

So you know, rule number one: don't get injured. Rule number two: train smart, you know. So there's a lot of those kind of fundamental rules for older climbers, you know. Nutrition and sleep is massively important.

Kris Hampton  00:55

What's up, everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Obviously, you've already seen the title of this episode. So you know that today we're talking to a climbing coaching legend. And if you're here because you're also interested in coaching, I've recently released a coaching course that you should check out: Coaching for Mastery. It's the result of several years of figuring out where the research theory and my own experience into helping climbers better learn skills overlaps, and then synthesizing it all into practical application. You can find the link in your show notes to learn all about it. Okay. Today's guest is Eric Hörst. I've known Eric for many years, but I've known his work for far longer. And he deserves credit for being one of the earliest sources of good information for training for climbing that existed. If you're interested in training and coaching climbers, and you haven't come across his work, where the hell have you been? Eric stopped by my house to discuss his own recent climbing and what he's found that's working for him in his late 50s – he's been crushing – and where he hopes to go with his climbing in the coming years and what he thinks might get him there. Eric is so often giving out information through his books, website, and podcast. Information that helps us. And I think this is a rare look into his climbing and what he's learning from it. Alright, let's get into it.

Kris Hampton  02:35

I haven't told you a thing about what I want to talk about yet. 

Eric Hörst  02:38

Okay. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  02:38

Because...

Eric Hörst  02:39

We can just ad lib. 

Kris Hampton  02:40

Yeah, because I kind of just want to compare notes. You've been crushing lately, it's been, it's been really fun to watch this like uptick in your climbing and in the things that you're doing and your excitement in getting outside. And I'm sure some of that came with, like, the boys going off and doing their own things. And, but I'm also curious about what you've been doing to prepare. You know, I'm, I'm a few years behind you so I get to learn from what you're doing that's working, from you, or for you, for my years coming.

Eric Hörst  03:19

So yeah, it's an interesting topic. And you know, our sport is one where you can stay engaged and involved and performing at a high level very deep into your adult life, you know, into middle age or beyond. And, you know, so my mission – probably like yours, and a lot of folks'– is to continue to be a climber as long as possible. And, you know, injury is, you know, one of the things that can absolutely shut you down, you know, especially if it's a knee or a hip or shoulder or something that, you know, is really, you know, game-changing. You know, most of those injuries, you can come back from when you're young, but sometimes when you're old, it doesn't happen. And there's a reason there's only one football player in the NFL in their 40s, Tom Brady, the rest just couldn't keep it together long enough. And that's kind of how climbing is. We see people dropped by the wayside for various reasons, you know, motivation lacks, their life changes, family, career – there's a lot of things that can get in the way. But on the other hand, you can always circle back to climbing if you have that off time. And so the one thing you need is a healthy body. And so that's kind of my overriding goal is just to avoid injury and keep going. 

Kris Hampton  04:38

So what are you going to do while you're here in Lander, if you're trying to avoid injury?

04:41

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, this is the 30th anniversary of my first visit to Lander back in the summer of 1992. Of course, Wild Iris was unknown to the world. Todd and his few friends were climbing there and I get a phone call. He's like, "Eric, you gotta come check out, you know, this limestone area and Lander." And so we came out that summer, did a few first ascents out there. And we've been coming back most summers since. And, you know, I commented to a few people, this year that the routes that I haven't done in all of those years are routes I'm kind of afraid to get on right now, because they're like 5.13b/c, kind of climbs that are steep, and small, you know, tweaky pockets, and, you know. So I think twice before getting on those routes, or I get on them and I hang a lot, you know, and I'm afraid to fully commit. And, you know, that's, that's not a mindset you can climb hard, you have to fully commit, you know, on powerful routes like that. And so, I think like any aging athlete, you have to kind of pick your battles. And I know routes that, say like at Ten Sleep, where I was just at for a few days, less overhanging, you can stand on your feet more, and that right there makes it a little more friendly of a climbing area for aging climber. But that said, I was, prior to Ten Sleep I was at Rifle, which is steep and burly, but the holds are generally bigger and more friendly. You're wrapping your hands and palming corners and grabbing underclings. And that's not the, you know, the mono or two-finger pocket pulling that you often encounter on harder routes at the Iris. So yeah, you know, I try to be very self-aware of what's going on and listen to the signals from my body.

Kris Hampton  06:48

Yeah, I think that's so important. You know, in the last like, five or six years, I've been mostly bouldering. And, you know, really, with the motivation of like, bucking the trend of we can't get stronger, we can't get more powerful as we get older. And, and I've climbed harder and harder, but I'm definitely butting up against this ceiling where it's like there are some things out there that are harder that I know I could do, but there's the specter of injury from either some like really intense heel-hook or intense shoulder move or something like that, that's holding me back from committing, just like you said. And, and I'm just not willing to destroy a year of climbing to try to do this one thing. I would rather take another step back if I have to, and climb for longer.

Eric Hörst  07:44

Yeah, yeah. And I respect that you're pushing in the bouldering because that's something I have not done. Now, I should have put out there, where I live in Pennsylvania, there's just not any great bouldering. There's these Diabase boulders that are kind of cool and have local interest. But it's not Bishop, it's not Hueco, it's not even the bouldering you would find in Wyoming or Colorado. So it's not an inspiring bouldering scene generally in eastern Pennsylvania. So there's not much to go after, but you know, I prefer rope climbing. I think that's where I can start. However, I do believe where I'm at, kind of Coach Hörst coaching himself, you know, I tell myself, I do, "I am being held back by my inability to do hard moves." Even at Rifle, a couple of routes I was on a few weeks ago, I have the fitness for the routes, I just can't do a couple of moves, I need a little more power. And, you know, just because I can hang on a 20 millimeter with one hand in the gym, it's not the same as applying that, you know, on the rock where your feet are on and you have to connect your hands and feet powerfully. And, you know, to a large degree you need to boulder to do that or you have to system wall. I mean, that's why system walls are so effective. And so I guess Coach Hörst could take, maybe learn a thing or two from Coach Hampton, in terms of maybe going out there and trying to explore. You know, maybe this winter I throw around in my head you know, if I, what if I did go to Hueco for two weeks and test the waters? and yeah, could I, not only hopefully have some fun and send some boulders, but would that then feed back into my spring season being perhaps a little better? Because right now, you know, I don't think I've ever been as fit in terms of climbing specific aerobic energy system. You know, last, the beginning of December, kind of the end of my climbing season last year, in a matter of a few days I sent "Flour Power" and "Bohica", which, you know, they're only, only 5.13b's but, you know them, you've climbed them, they're very much classic resistance routes. And so, you know, for me, that was evidence that at my age, I had pretty high aerobic fitness. But what would it take for me to then turn sending those routes into a couple of their neighbor routes? Like you, like you did a number of years ago. You know, to do "Transworld" I need to do harder moves.

Kris Hampton  10:28

Sure. Yeah, I think, I think that's a really important distinction, number one. But I also want to back up and just say, one of the interesting things I found when I had my shoulder surgery at 40, was that when I was coming back, bouldering actually felt safer to me. And this was a little counterintuitive, you know, I expected sport climbing to feel safer, especially in the Red. But what I found was that I have this gear that I go into sport climbing where I just like lunge for things and latch and, and hold, you know? And that felt really dangerous for my shoulder multiple times. Whereas with bouldering, I'm close to the ground, I can just drop off if I get into a situation like that. And I already had this, like, hang-on-for-dear-life mentality sport climbing. So I think you know, in that respect, I love your idea of go to Hueco for a little while and test the waters, see how it is, because it's, it's so easy to just drop off if you want to and there's so many things close to the ground. You don't have to do giant highballs, you know? 

Eric Hörst  11:38

Yeah, I have no interest in jumping from 20 feet. 

Kris Hampton  11:41

Oh, no way. 

Eric Hörst  11:42

My back can't take that stuff. And, you know, and so yeah, I'm apprehensive, but I kind of think I need to give it a try. Because, you know, if I'm, in the coming years, gonna take it up one more notch, you know, in terms of sending a 14a, I think I need to be able to do harder moves. I mean, you could tell me better. I mean, what's the hardest move on "Transworld"?

Kris Hampton  12:10

Probably V8. Yeah. So I think that's unless you find the, you know, the absolute perfect route for you, I think that's probably bare minimum for climbing 5.14. At least what I've seen, is being able to do a good variety of V8 sort of climbing. Question for you: I know that you went through a period, maybe in your early 50s, I'm not sure about the timeline, where you weren't able to climb a lot, weren't able to train a lot. And since then, you've been able to spin up your, your fitness, your climbing fitness, really effectively. So, so that came from that that older age already. So I'm curious to know, just for the older athletes out there who are listening, what was your sort of starting point for where you're at now? Obviously, you'd already had this skill built up, but... 

Eric Hörst  13:14

Yeah, well, I mean, I've been at this a long time, I started climbing in 1977.

Eric Hörst  13:21

And so you know, when you do something for 45 years, not every year is going to build on the previous. There's going to be, you know, an ebb and flow of your motivation, of your time available to train and climb. And consequently, your skill – well, not so much your skill level because, you know, climbing is something where we accumulate a skill set and it kind of stays with you – but in terms of your your climbing fitness and what you can actually do on the rock, it's going to, there's going to be an ebb and flow. And so, you know, when we started our family, you know, 21 years ago, you know, that's a big one. And anybody who has, you know, kids, you know, especially those first five or ten years, that takes a lot of time and effort, especially if you're going to be engaged as a parent as I was. And so we were definitely climbing a lot less, you know, for a number of years. Though, you know, we have a big home training facility, I never got out of shape. And I guess that's the first thing I would tell people if they're going into one of those midlife phases where career or family is going to limit their climbing: stay in shape. Because, you know, just stopping climbing and kind of letting your, you know, physical fitness, you know, drop significantly; yeah, you can dig out of that hole, but it's tougher, you know?

Kris Hampton  13:21

Right.

Kris Hampton  14:46

Stay in climbing shape, I think, some semblance of climbing shape is what's important.

Eric Hörst  14:50

Right, I mean, there's never been a year that I haven't climbed significantly, you know, at least 30 or 40 days even in one of my, those down phases. And most of those years, you know, if we want to talk about harder climbing, I climbed my first 5.13 in 1987.

Kris Hampton  15:12

"Diamond Life", is that right?

Eric Hörst  15:13

"Diamond Life". Yeah, it was a first ascent at the New River Gorge, it was actually the first 5.13 at the New River Gorge. 

Kris Hampton  15:17

Great, great route.

Eric Hörst  15:18

So it was my first 5.13 and the New's first 5.13. And so that was 35 years ago. And I think pretty much every year since then I've climbed 5.13, you know, at least one, some years, a lot more than one. And so, but yeah, as the kids got, like, into high-school age and were, you know, beginning that transition into doing more of their stuff, not with my wife and I, and certainly the last couple of years since the kids went off to college, and we're empty nesters, you know, this is kind of my, you know, I don't know what you want to call it, but it's kind of my chance to kind of, you know, put myself first when it comes to climbing performance. Because, you know, when, when my wife and I would be out climbing with our kids the last 15 years, we put their goals and their fun and joy at the crags ahead of our desires. And so it's hard to work a project, if you're out belaying your kids and trying to make their day the best it can be. And so we're now able to kind of return the focus on to us and travel to the areas that we're interested in. And, you know, I have, you know, a goal to climb hard well into my 60s. So, you know, that's, that's the game plan right now. So I guess kind of the bottom line, back to your question is, I, you know, even when you aren't able to travel and be as involved as a climber, just to, you know, not lose it physically, you know, get out get way out of shape, and, you know, to you know, give yourself you know, the ability to claim a couple of days a month, let's say, go for runs, walks, anything to stay active. 

Kris Hampton  17:12

Yeah, it doesn't take a whole lot to to keep the, you know, getting unhealthy and unfit at bay.

Eric Hörst  17:20

You bet. And I mean, someone can engage a coach, and with a hangboard, you know, be able to stay in decent shape, and you go out for a few runs, and you know, keep their body comp close. And it doesn't take much to, you know, stay in the game. Now, to climb your very best, obviously takes a bigger commitment.

Kris Hampton  17:44

Yep. So you you recently retired, which I'm sure... well, first off, congratulations. I'm sure that

Eric Hörst  17:50

It's been over two years. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  17:51

Yeah, I'm sure that was, you know, a benefit to your climbing but then you've also got this new business that seems to be booming. So has that evened things out? Or is, is it, are you working more now that it's your own business? How's that going? 

Eric Hörst  18:07

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's kind of what it turns into but, and you know how that is, when you have a growing business, you always are gonna underestimate what it takes. But yeah, I had a great career at a university in Pennsylvania, Millersville University. 32 years I put in, it was a wonderful job for me because it gave me the security, you know, in terms of raising a family, and, you know, it was essentially a nine-month-a-year job. So summers, I had free to travel and to do my climbing stuff. And, you know, and I, I'm kind of always been a workaholic, kind of the classic Type A who's doing, you know, five things at once and trying to do the best I can in each area. So what it did is, you know, stepping away from the university, which actually happened to coincide with COVID and the university moving online, which is something that I wasn't happy about or didn't, you know, that's not what I, you know, I...

Kris Hampton  19:07

Right, not what you signed up for. 

Eric Hörst  19:09

Yeah, working with students was what I signed up for. So no, none of the professors liked trying to take what's supposed to be an in-person instruction and try to make it happen online. So it, that was pure coincidence that it played out that way, but yeah, so it kind of gave me some freedom, where I could be completely self-directed in terms of how I invest the hours and minutes of my life. But then again, I had this business which I had launched two years prior to retiring, PhysiVantage nutrition. And, you know, it started off as a tiny business, it was just my wife and I, and I worked with a food scientist. We developed our first two products, you know, we kind of got them tried and tested and proven with some pro-climbers. And we launched back in the beginning of 2019, and then COVID hit. And, you know, you know then it was, everybody was just kind of scrambling and, but the long story short is the business took off. And so right when I retired, I was at the point where I needed to fully commit to this business. And since it's grown exponentially the last two years, and now we're four years in and, you know, we're a vibrant growing business with 50 pro-climbers in the US using our products, 1000's and 1000's of weekend warriors and recreational climbers, and we just launched into Europe, and have, you know, European climbers getting the PhysiVantage as well. So it's growing to the point that I'm a little overwhelmed, to be honest, but that's a good thing.

Kris Hampton  20:49

Yeah, I mean, congrats on the business and the growth of it. Something I've found with with my business, and maybe partially because it's in the climbing space like yours is, is that even though it's harder work, and it's more work, and it can mean, you know, work in the middle of the night or, you know, work on weekends, or whatever, it gives me more motivation to climb. Whether it's, whether it's because I'm interacting with other people who are psyched all the time to climb, or I'm motivated to be an example, be a mentor for other people in the space, whatever it is, I get a lot out of it in terms of motivation. And I thought I was really motivated when I was a weekend warrior. And I was, but I think it only grew when this became my full-time job. What's been your experience there?

Eric Hörst  21:46

No, I, I agree with that. And I think, you know, what you're expressing is common amongst kind of more veteran athletes who are recognized in the community. And it's, it's hard for you or me to perceive how many people we touch through what we do, you know, through the podcasting, for instance, and through the training programs, and you know, just through personal contact at the crags. For every one person who sends an email to you and says, "Hey, you know, thanks, I really, you know, this is game changing for me," you know, there's probably 100 other people out there that, that feel the same way. And so that's a pretty powerful endorsement of what people like you and I do. But also I don't know, I, I think that I'm a believer that climbing is such a life-enriching, life-changing activity, that, you know, it's like the ultimate, to have somebody that tell you that you made their experience even better, or made their journey even better. And, you know, last fall, I was in Germany climbing with my son at the Frankenjura, and on a couple of occasions, you know, I walked in to a crag and people recognized me. So here I am halfway around the world, and, "Oh, my gosh, you know, Eric Hörst," and, you know, then they, you know, compliment me on the book or the podcasts and, and it's like, wow, that is so gratifying. It makes me feel so good. I mean, you don't, you know, we don't get rich in the climbing business, not monetarily. But, you know, certainly, that type of feedback is, is, you know, you can't put a price on it. That's, you know, life-changing.

Kris Hampton  23:42

Yes, it's huge. It's one of the things that I never really expected when I was first dipping my toes into all of this, was that I would get as much joy from watching other people succeed who I had helped, as I do from my own successes, and we love to get those emails and we love to talk with people who are coming through town and show them the gym and... Yeah, that stuff is so gratifying and means so much and keeps me out there trying hard, too.

Eric Hörst  24:16

Yeah. And, you know, and I guess, kind of as, as we age, and stay active at the crags, we become kind of evidence for other people, like, you know. I run into, like at Rifle I'm working 5.13a with, you know, a couple of guys that are half my age. And you're like evidence to them that, you know, it's a long game. And you know, so many people feel like, "Oh, I need to reach this goal this summer, or this season." And that's, that's great to have that sense of urgency about your project, but I think climbers need to realize the, you know, the climbing journey can be a really long one. And so you don't have to, you know, put all this pressure on yourself that it has to happen this week or this season or this month. Because there's next season, you know. For most people, there's going to be many more seasons to come. And, you know, so...

Kris Hampton  25:24

This is something I talk with clients about a lot, who are putting a lot of pressure on themselves and, and anxiety is building up about, "What if I don't?" However, as, as I'm getting older, we're all getting older, are you starting to feel any of those, like, pressures of "I have to get these things done sooner than later,"? And I'm asking, because those things have certainly popped in my mind now and then and, and I have to have that discussion with myself that, yes, this is a long game, but at some point, those, those big goals are off the table.

Eric Hörst  26:04

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely do think about that. So while I try to communicate to that climber that's half my age that they have a long timeline to, to reach their goals and to continue to improve and to climb harder, you know, the, the fact is, and, you know, it is a fact, I'm not going to climb 5.14 at age 70. You know, it's just not likely to happen. I'm sure there's a guy somewhere in Spain that's done it.

Kris Hampton  26:40

Yeah, hahaha, There must be. 

Eric Hörst  26:42

But I don't know any in the US. I mean, Chuck Odette, 5.14a, and he's 65. So I mean, there's some evidence there for me that I have maybe seven years. But yeah, I do feel a little bit of pressure. And so it does make me kind of choose my travel and my projects. And, you know, for instance, you know, kind of the prime climbing season across much of the country is the autumn season, October, November. I'm going to spend it all in the Red, I'm not gonna go anywhere else. And, you know, I kind of, I mean, I'm so sold on the fact that for, for me, at my age where I'm at, to break the next grade, I think the Red's one of the best places for me to do it. 

Kris Hampton  27:32

Absolutely, yeah.

Eric Hörst  27:34

Because it's more resistance climbing, less crux climbing. And there's other places, certainly there'd be, you know, Spain, and you know, some other, you know, locations as well, but the Red is, is one that I love and enjoy. And so to kind of stack the deck in my favor, I'm building a cabin there so that I have no excuses. Like, if I actually live there, I can pick the days. And so the plan is, for the next few falls at least, to spend those two months at the Red and, you know, hopefully have lots of cool dry days and, you know, be able to tick some, some routes.

Kris Hampton  28:12

I think that's, I mean, that's super smart. And I think everybody can, to some degree, take that lesson of making, you know, trending your lifestyle toward your goals, whatever it is, you know. If you have the privilege, like you and I have, of being able to be in a location for a long time, that's, that's not your primary home, that's a great way to do it. Anyway you can, to lean your lifestyle in that direction, I think is really valuable.

Eric Hörst  28:47

Yeah, and I'll tell you, I think, you know, something that's important to point out here: you know, I think all climbers, if you're at it long enough, you kind of recognize when you go to an area, you know, what the low-hanging fruit is and what routes play to your strengths. And, you know, if you want to feel good and send something, you know, a higher grade, you kind of pick things that cater to your strengths, and you kind of shy away from things that might, you know, reveal your weaknesses. And, and more and more as you get older, you have to kind of play that game. On the other hand, I think it's a mistake for younger climbers to do that a lot, you know. And I tell my sons frequently now, they're mostly self-directed and, you know, coach themselves, but I give them input and hopefully they listen to some of it still, even though they're 19 and 21. And, you know, and I frequently tell them, you know, "You guys need to do more..." and I go down a tick list of things: "You need to do more onsite climbing, you need to, you know, mix it up to do more trad climbing," and, you know, because they are at that age where they can still improve a lot, you know, for the next 10 or 20 years, but they have to, you know, invest some time into it training up those weak areas. If they're always going out, you know, picking things that are kind of in their wheelhouse, you know, the, quote, low-hanging fruit, so to speak, you know, that cater to their strengths, again, that that's going to help them send their next 9a or whatnot, but it might not be what's going to help them get to the next grade. And you have to, you know, spend some time doing things that kind of rough you up a little bit. And so I'm like, "You need to go to Rifle and get roughed up a little bit. Or you need to, you know, you know, go here or there and do some onsite climbing, and dial it back." And, you know, but they're, you know, they're, they're young, and they're enamored with the idea of trying to climb as hard as they can. And so, of course, they invest most of their time on, you know, steep, powerful sport climbing, which is kind of what they're good at.

Kris Hampton  30:55

They've got a lot of time left. So, you know, they'll, they'll listen to you someday, even if they don't when they're 19 and 21. 

Eric Hörst  31:01

Yeah, well, what you should do is you should sit them down and put a mic on them, Kris, and yeah, you know, you maybe get the truth out of them.

Kris Hampton  31:09

I'll definitely try to do that, that would be a lot of fun. I was just talking to somebody yesterday that, I need the opposite advice. I need to stop trying to constantly work on my weaknesses and try things that are more challenging for me and lean into my strengths a little bit. It'd be really smart for me to do and I just love so much leaning into the things that shouldn't be as hard for me as they are, or at least I think they shouldn't be as hard as they are. It's one of my favorite things in the world. So yeah, I need to, this coming season, that's what I'm going to do, try to lean into my strengths a little more.

Eric Hörst  31:47

Yeah. And there's definitely, there's value in both, in both, yeah, in both approaches. And I guess, you know, again, it kind of depends where you're at in your climbing journey, where your mindset is at. And, you know, my mindset is, you know, there is kind of a sense of urgency here, you know, I'm 58 and a half and, you know, so the window is shrinking for my opportunity to take it up another notch or two. If that's gonna happen, it's gotta happen soon. And so, you know, rule number one: don't get injured. Rule number two: train smart. You know, you know, minimum effective dose type training, no overtraining, you know, because recovery takes so long. You know, so there's a lot of those kind of fundamental rules for older climbers, you know, nutrition and sleep is massively important. So, with every year that you, that passes by, you know, when you're 20 years old, you can get away with a lot of nutrition, you know, junk food, drinking, you know, late nights, I mean, you're a little more – not that I endorse that, you know, for young athletes, you know, if you want to be serious, you got to put it all together – but it's a fact: you can get away with a lot when you're young. And, you know, as you age, every decade your body is slowing down. And you know, the way you used to eat doesn't work anymore. And, you know, honestly, the the genesis of PhysiVantage was, uh, around 2014, let's say: the year that I turned 50. And I'm like, I need to kind of reinvent myself a little bit, my training, I need to, you know, find some nutritional interventions, things that are going to help me as I age to recover faster. And, you know, I was seeing, you know, I was becoming hypothyroid. I mean, I had, not any major illnesses, but I had some issues, you know, some shoulder issues and wear and tear of climbing for 40 years. And I'm like, I need to really, you know, investigate what is going to keep me in the game for another 10 or 20 years. And this is back when I was 50. And so I started running into, you know, reading a lot of research on you know, cutting edge topics, you know, how to support collagen synthesis in your body and you know, how to maintain healthy tendons and joints and you know, how to recover faster and support hormone levels, all these things that change as you age. And that led me down this path of, you know, finding meaningful science, you know, when it comes to, you know, recovery aids and, you know, nutritional interventions. And that led me to developing these first few products and eventually PhysiVantage launching in 2019. So, even though the company has only been around about four years, the genesis was, you know, eight years ago, and, you know, it started off as a kind of a, you know, personal mission, just to find things that would help me and then... 

Kris Hampton  34:57

I think that's how a lot of the best things start, is, "I need this thing. I'm going to figure out how to get this thing. And oh, there must be other people out there who want this thing." 

Eric Hörst  35:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, and so I developed the product, the first couple of products, myself, they were in prototype for a couple of years, I used them, and then my son started using them. And then I started sending them out to pro-climbers like Matt Fultz, and he was using it and went on a tear. You know, and then I'm like, okay, you know, this stuff works. I oughta like, you know, brand it and market it and make it available to all climbers, and hence, PhysiVantage was born.

Kris Hampton  35:36

Yeah, smart. And good timing for your career, for your climbing.

Eric Hörst  35:41

That was all coincidence. I mean, it kind of makes me wonder if, you know, there is kind of a, you know, you know, it's just those things in life that, you know, happen seemingly coincidentally, but, you know, they kind of line up, kind of a synchronicity to things. 

Kris Hampton  35:57

Yeah. I think it's taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves, you know, and...

Eric Hörst  36:03

Yeah, and here's the other thing, Kris, you know, I, I had spent the previous 30 years writing about training for climbing, you know, hundreds of articles and all these books and foreign translations. And so I had really proven myself in the community as a knowledgeable person and I was involved in the research community. And so it gave me this perspective, you know, because, you know, the whole sports nutrition industry is viewed not so well by a lot of people. Because there is a lot of crap products out there, there's, you know, a lot of fraudulent, questionable, let's say, products and claims, for sure. And so, I went into it knowing I needed to have science on my side if I was going to, you know, launch a line of products. And, you know, then using the reputation that I had built over all of those years in the climbing industry to launch the product. And so it none of it was planned out. It just kind of evolved, you know, organically, but as you said, that's often the best things.

Kris Hampton  37:15

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I'm curious with, now that you have, you know, you can essentially, if you want to call it this, be a "full-time climber", if you want to. Obviously, you're still working, you know, but you can travel to where you want to be and climb. How does your training look now that you can be out there full-time?

Eric Hörst  37:41

Yeah, that's a good question. And it's actually something that I can't completely answer, because I'm still kind of figuring that out, Kris. 

Kris Hampton  37:47

I think we all are, so...

Eric Hörst  37:48

Yeah, because, you know, it's been since kind of this next phase of my life when I retired from the university job two years ago, and kind of, you know, I have been able to focus entirely on PhysiVantage nutrition and on my climbing and, you know, again, mentioning that the kids are kind of out of, out of the house and on their own, you know, college-age. So, you know, I, I guess I'm a compulsive planner, so I still maintain a paper calendar, or, you know, a wall calendar. I need to kind of see that laid out in front of me, it's really hard for me to use like a phone calendar or something. And so I think 6 to 12 months in advance, you know, like, you know, right now October, November is blocked out: Red River Gorge. You want to see me, come to the Red, that's where I'm gonna be. And, you know, and then I knew I wanted to be in Wyoming for July because that's what we do most years. We spend, you know, July in Wyoming. Which uh, you know, there're few places I'd rather be this time of year and you know, and then I kind of fill in the blocks like that. And okay, so I'm gonna get home and I'm gonna have August is going to be kind of a training block that probably extends into the first part of September, and then as the cold fronts start coming through and you know, days get shorter and the air more crisp, I'll segue outside and you know, get ready for that October, November trip and you know. And then maybe back home in December, you know, another training block before perhaps January, you know. We talked about Hueco, or if not Hueco maybe, you know, Red Rocks, Las Vegas area. Yeah, you know, so I try to think out 6 or 12 months and plan out, you know, a schedule that allows me to always circle back to training every 8 to 12 weeks because, you know, even if I'm climbing a fair amount, say three or four days a week, I really do notice my my strength wanes quickly when I'm on a trip. Yeah, I maintain that fitness well, but my strength wanes. And it's startling because I get home from a trip, and I test myself. And I'm like way down on like a lot of different metrics. The good news is they come back quick, you know, as most athletes discover, you know, that you can regain those metrics pretty quickly if they're not lost for a long time. And yeah, so it's kind of, you know, rinse and repeat, you know, through that cycle. And, you know, all the while I am working a lot, you know. It's not like, if I am spending, you know, July in Wyoming that I'm just on vacation for 30 days, I'm working every other day, you know, putting in a full day, like, a lot of people that are on the road. I mean, since COVID, I think probably half the people I run into at the crags like Ten Sleep or down in St. George this spring, more climbers than not were people that were, you know, working remotely out of an Airbnb or out of a van. I mean, it's kind of the new normal. And perhaps there's a lot of people listening to this that are shaking their head, you know, they're able to embrace that lifestyle as well. And it does make it tougher to train for sure, because you are kind of mobile, and you're traveling, but I think it's, you know, for some people a very rewarding way to do things, because you are able to satisfy your need for climbing and you know, that passion that we have, but also pay the bills, and also, you know, contribute to society, you know, in a more meaningful way through their job or whatnot. And, you know...

Kris Hampton  41:39

I like that you build your calendar out thinking about the trips you want to do outside first. I mean, I think, that's ideal for me. And I think it's a great way to keep your motivation up and you know, to have these goals in the future that you're training for. I think that's really important. Do you think because there are so many people who are just, you know, working out of an Airbnb in a, in a climbing destination, is the two month trip or two months in a, in an area, is that a time when we should consider keeping some of those strengths up? Maybe we are hangboarding every third day or something? And does that differ when you're 25 versus when you're 50?

Eric Hörst  42:26

Yeah, it definitely differs according to your age. And, you know, to be honest, with the exception of the Red, there's nowhere that I would spend two months straight. Most climbing areas, honestly, if I'm there for three weeks, I kind of get a little tired... 

Kris Hampton  42:45

Yeah, but a lot of folks do.

Eric Hörst  42:47

...just of the climbing, the scene, and stuff. And so, you know, I tend to want to move on. Now the Red will be a little different because having a cabin there, it'll be a new approach for me kind of. And to answer your question, you know, at the cabin, of course, I'm going to have a hangboard and a campus board and a small wall. And so not only can I get the perfect warm up before heading to the crag, which at older age is very, very important. 

Kris Hampton  43:14

One of my favorite tactics.

Eric Hörst  43:16

Yeah, yeah. Oh, if, yeah, yeah, I'm sure here in Lander, it's huge, you know, to be able to warm up at home and then just go right to your project. And at older age, you gotta make every go count, you know. If you waste a couple go's because you're not properly warmed up, you know, well, that's, that's the day, you know, if you're an older climber. So, yeah, so the Red, I'll have the tools to not only both warm up, but do, you know, maybe a once weekly brief recruitment session just to get fully turned on. Because if you're rock climbing and standing on your feet, you're, it's just not the same as doing, you know, a limit bouldering session or even doing a hangboard routine. And so, I, I'm not a fan of people doing intensive training as part of their road trip. But done the right way, I think it can be helpful. And, you know, even...

Kris Hampton  44:18

I think it becomes especially important in areas like the Red where it's a very resistant style, and you're doing very little really, really hard climbing or grabbing really small holds or anything like that.

Eric Hörst  44:33

Yeah, for sure. And yes, that's, that's something that will be new for me, you know, because up until this point, I've always visited the Red for a few days or, at most, a couple of weeks. And, you know, then returned home and... 

Kris Hampton  44:50

So exciting. 

Eric Hörst  44:51

So this time, I can kind of call the Red my home. And you know, it's funny, Kris, you know, because, as you know, I was one of the early developers at the New River Gorge in the 1980s and 90s. And you know, a couple hundred first ascents there, it's shocking that I actually am going to have a cabin at the Red and not at the New. But, and I love the New, I have so much sweat equity at the New but the climbs there are, are, I don't want to say harder because you know, the routes at the Red are hard, but the routes of the New are hard in a different way. You have to do individual hard moves. 

Kris Hampton  45:30

Definitely a more bouldery style. 

Eric Hörst  45:31

Yeah, more bouldery, it's like bouldering on a rope sometimes. And whereas the Red, though it may have a few routes that are like that, is more, you know, more of a resistance area and, you know, is a better fit for a climber my age. And so, I will always return to the New for a couple of days of climbing each year because I love the area. It's one of my favorite in the world. But again, getting back to the idea that I have this limited timeline. And if I'm going to put myself in a situation to win on the higher grade routes, then I need to, you know, cater to my strengths, which is kind of endurance climbing.

Kris Hampton  46:08

Yeah, I love it. You, can you point to any specific things – and totally okay to say no, but I'm just curious if there are any things – you've done over the last four to five years, maybe more specifically these last couple of years, that you point to making you successful? At, at climbing that you've been, you've been climbing at a high level, so...

Eric Hörst  46:38

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, training-wise, honestly, I'm doing pretty much the same stuff now that I was doing 5 or 10 years ago, it's always being tweaked to be right for where I'm at, you know, physically, but my program is largely unchanged the last decade. The one big difference is my approach to climbing at the crags and specifically how long I'll put in to working a route. And that, that change coincides with my retirement from my university job...

Kris Hampton  47:18

Having more time.

Eric Hörst  47:19

...where, yeah, where, you know, prior to that, with, you know, a job nine months of the year, kind of a standard nine to five kind of job and a family, and, you know, all the other things that you know... I'm very, I'm very engaged in a lot of activities. I'm a man of many passions, and, you know, so it was just a very busy time of my life from like, age, you know, 30 to age 55. And when I would go climbing, I would want to send routes, you know, so it, whether it was a two-day trip to the New or a five-day trip to the Red or three week trip to Wyoming or whatnot, I wanted to do routes I could send, you know. That means you're obviously shooting below your absolute limit. And I'm picking routes that I can either onsight or do in a few go's. And camping under a route for days and days? No way. I'm not going to do that if I have such limited time. And I think that's a mistake a lot of climbers make because they're, they're, they're seeking that higher grade, which I respect, but they have such an urgency that they, you know, invest so much time. And maybe they send, maybe they don't. But there's a lot of, I see a lot of anxiety in people, you know, a lot of frustration, and even lost love of climbing sometimes, because they get so stressed over the proj. And it's like, "Take a break, dial it back, you know, do some routes you can send." I mean, second going is a really gratifying way to climb. Yeah, because you have no pressure on the first go. You're kind of going up there sussing it out, you know, just being a scientist about figuring out the route, what is the beta? And then trying to second go it, you know. And if you don't second go, third go it. And that's what I did for years. And I found it was challenging but I would send frequently enough that it was gratifying. You know, there's nothing worse than going on a long trip somewhere and coming home, like with nothing. And I see so many climbers do that. And it's kind of sad that I see climbers come into the Red for a week, and they camp out under a route that's, you know, over their head or at their extreme limit, and they don't send it and they go home. And I'm like, I think to myself, "What a shame, they were just at one of the world's best climbing areas and they could have dialed it back two letter grades and sent some routes that are world class and had a ball. But instead they suffered on you know, something that was at their extreme limit." And, you know, everybody's got to find the recipe for what works for them. And you know, for me, it wasn't to put myself into this, you know, mode of failing most of the time. Now things are all different. I have more time on my hands, at least I don't have to be at the university nine months of the year, so I can travel more and dedicate a little more time. And so to finally circle back to answering your question, you know, the change that I've made the last couple of years is to actually work on routes longer. And so, you know, I first set out to climb a 13c, which I did, you know, two seasons ago, a route called "Angry Birds", which I'm sure you know. It's not a pushover, by any stretch. It's actually kind of my anti-style, because it has two boulder problem cruxes on it. But and it's requires a fair amount of endurance as well. And I did it in four, maybe five days, you know, so I kind of surprised myself, "Wow, I can do that if I just put a couple of days into something." And, you know, so, you know, taking it up a notch, you know, "What if, what if I put 10 days into a route this fall?" you know, which probably it'll take for me to, you know, to do, I don't know, "Ultraperm", or you know, something like that. We'll see. That, that story is yet to be written. But the one change, to answer your question, is to actually put more time into, you know, working routes, when I find the right route. That being said, you know, I was just in Rifle and Ten Sleep, and I didn't spend more than really a day on anything because I kind of, I had a week, I wanted to send some routes in a week. So I dialed things back and, you know, kind of climbed, you know, closer to my second-go limit, let's say. 

Kris Hampton  49:12

Yep, I think it's, I think it's important when you go on a trip to know what you want out of it. And, you know, if you want to send routes, then working at your absolute limit isn't the way to go. If it, if you just want to go and climb on one route and that's what makes you happy, great. I think you should, you know, and I would do that, like, maybe one out of every five or six trips that I would go on when I was a weekend warrior. And I would, otherwise I would keep my projects at home and in a place where I was going regularly, you know.

Eric Hörst  52:12

And that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Your home area...

Kris Hampton  52:14

For me, that worked. 

Eric Hörst  52:15

Your home area where you can have, you know, quick access and frequent visits to, you know, if you're going to project something at your limit, maybe that's where it should be. And then when you travel, like you if you're gonna go to Europe for a few weeks, why just park yourself under one route? Why not check out some amazing areas that you might not get back to? You know, who knows? And so that's a message I've tried to share with all the climbers I work with, and certainly with my sons, you know, that you know, there's value in both, in you know, both approaches. I guess you need to, you need to be able to, you know, alternate perhaps I guess is the word, between the two approaches. 

Eric Hörst  53:03

You do have to sometimes stretch your limits. And that means picking out something that you're gonna fail on a lot. Yeah, you know, that was one of the things that, you know, Todd Skinner was a big proponent of is, you know, you gotta set the bar high, and you know, you know, kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight, you know. 

Kris Hampton  53:03

Yeah, I agree.

Kris Hampton  53:18

You don't really know where your limits are until you try to push into them. 

Eric Hörst  53:20

But if that's all you do, then, you know, then it becomes a sufferfest.

Kris Hampton  53:25

Did you ever have those kinds of projects that took longer than your usual? When you were climbing in the New a lot way back in the day, like around "Diamond Life" time? Did you have big projects then?

Eric Hörst  53:38

I, you know, I was so into just route development. You know, we were, there was about a half a dozen of us, you know – Mike Artz, Eddie Begoon, Doug Reed, Porter Jarrard, myself, Rick Thompson, Kenny Parker, a few others – and it was kind of like, there was a few years where you would walk out to the crags and there'd be multiple drills going. It was kind of this golden age of development that lasted five seasons. So to find one, you know, at or beyond the limit route and park under it, it's like, "Wow, I'll miss out on putting up all these great routes." So I think a lot of us, kind of, we were all picking routes that were within our capabilities. And so "Diamond Life" was at my limit, you know, but it was, you know, I climbed a lot of 5.12d's in many areas around the country. So I was ready for that 5.13a breakthrough back in 1987. And so I just happened to find the right piece of stone and I think it might have been a three-day type commitment, you know, so it wasn't that huge of a commitment and, you know, honestly, back then I didn't work on routes more than a couple of days, you know, because I wanted to move on to the next route. And so it was kind of you know, we were all out there you know, searching for Easter eggs, you know. You know, who's gonna put up the, the great arete over here or the big roof there and you know, it was a really, a fun period. But none of us pushed the boundaries all that far. In 1989, so two years after "Diamond Life", I think the hardest route at that time was 13b. I think Doug Reed and I had both put up 13b's at the New. And then Scott Franklin shows up, and puts up "Mango Tango", which he graded 13d, and it's now widely accepted as solid 14a. And so he just came in and like, just, in our face, showed us that we weren't climbing that hard. And some of that was self-imposed, because again, we were just on this, you know, we were involved in this golden age of route development and none of us picked out a line and worked on it for a long time. But also Scott was just so much better and stronger than us. I mean, he was on a different level.

Kris Hampton  55:51

Yeah, absolutely. Outlier for sure. Yeah. So now that you are, you know, leaning into this multiple-day project, is "Angry"––first off, is "Angry Birds" the longest project at this point?

Eric Hörst  56:05

No, I, after doing "Angry Birds" my next route that I started working on was "Silky Smooth", which I'm sure you're familiar with. 

Kris Hampton  56:14

Oh, yeah. Great one.

Eric Hörst  56:15

Yeah. And so I put in eight days on that, almost sent, and then I got a little bit of a pulley tweak. And if you remember that route, it's basically a crimp ladder. It's just crimp, crimp, crimp, crimp, crimp.

Kris Hampton  56:25

And it's like a steeper version of the Undertow.

Eric Hörst  56:28

Yeah, yeah. And so you're on first pad for like 90 feet, for the most part. There's one semi-rest at like a little over half way, which I red-pointed to multiple times, you know, so all the hard, the hardest climbing is behind you at that point, you just have to survive, you know, a 12b crimp fest to the anchors. And I just couldn't get enough back at the rest to make it through that last, you know, run to the anchors. So it was a little bit of a fitness test, it was kind of a little bit of a mystery why I couldn't send it. I was kind of eight days in and then – you know, eight days, maybe over two weeks– and then I started to feel a little of that classic, you know, tenderness in the A2 pulley and I'm like, "Okay, be smart, you know, this project is not going away." You know, and so it got kicked to this season. So hopefully this fall, that'll be the first thing I go to.

Kris Hampton  57:19

Yeah, I think, I think you know, tactics like that – multiple-day project tactics – are one of those important things that if you were to stick to the approach constantly of only second-go, third-go ascending, you miss out on a little bit, you know. I think that's why I like the having a project at home, once in a while on a trip try something hard, because then you're sort of stress-testing your tactics and you, you get a bigger, just like climbing skills, you get a bigger bag of tactics that you can pull from when you encounter a situation where it's a bit of a mystery. It's still going to be a bit of a mystery sometimes, you know, that's just how climbing is. You think you should send and you're falling at the same move over and over, you know.

Eric Hörst  58:04

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's funny, I felt so close to sending "Silky Smooth", but yet it was like so far. It's kind of one of those mysteries and I, I got, I mean, I was being really scientific about it. I was shooting video of every attempt and I was breaking down the route and the movement and how I could be a little more efficient. And, you know, and I think after all of that, I have concluded it's kind of I need to figure out how to rest better. I don't know if you remember the rest hold there, but it's a, it's a tight squeeze, you can't really get two hands into it, you can get like one and a half hand, of your, you know, you can get like six fingers. So how are you, how are you doing that? If you're getting six fingers, and I think people have really small hands, you know, kids, and maybe some ladies can get two full hands there, and then it's kind of a different game, but for an adult male hands or female hands, maybe they're too big. And for me, it's about six fingers. And so you're on a 30 degree overhanging wall with six fingers, how do you rest effectively there? You know, what is your, you know, how are you... I'm trying to piano my fingers in and out and get, you know, both hands to recover and you know, there's nothing to knee on and you know, there's you can't hand jam.... and I kept going to all the, all the tricks in the book, you know, trying to think how can I make this rest better? And I haven't really figured it out. So I think I just need a little more fitness and...

Kris Hampton  59:30

Is that one of the goals for this trip to the Red?

Eric Hörst  59:33

What's that? 

Kris Hampton  59:34

"Silky Smooth".

Eric Hörst  59:35

Yeah, it'll be the first thing I go back to. I mean, the other thing that's tricky about it is it gets really strong sun. It gets, it gets quite warm there. So even on a cool day, it can be almost too hot. And the the problem I had is in the sun, your feet are always stepping up into the shadow of your body. So your eyes are kind of blown out by the brightness of the wall but then you can't see your feet and there's, you know, it's all, it's all small, you know, it's very technical, you know, foot placements. You know, you just aren't dropping them on the jugs, you know, like you are maybe on the Undertow wall or on Madness Cave, you know. You're really edging on little features that you need to see and align your foot properly and so there's a visual issue when there's sun on it. But then, you know, it can also, if it's in the shade, be quite cold back there. And so yeah, I was having issues with the conditions as well, getting just, you know, the right time to be on the route. So again, I guess if I'm living locally there for a month or two, hopefully I can pick the days and times to get out there and hopefully take care of business. Yeah. So my hope would be that I could take care of that early in my fall visit and then start working on something else.

Kris Hampton  1:00:56

Awesome. Are you going to start looking for the big project, or?

Eric Hörst  1:00:59

I think I need a stepping stone. So I, and you know, we talked about my need to do harder moves and boulder. So I think "Ultra-perm" might be the route because you have some... 

Kris Hampton  1:01:07

Great one, yeah.

Eric Hörst  1:01:08

Yeah, you have some good resistance climbing up to a boulder, you know, and then resistance climbing again to the anchor. And I got on it a couple of times when my my sons did "Southern Smoke" a few years ago. And so they kind of share some of the top climbing. And so at that time, I thought, "What the heck, I'll get on and feel it up." And so, I mean, I can climb the route except for basically two moves. I need to figure out how to do that two move boulder. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:33

Cool. I mean, for, for most people, I know, half of the crux of "Ultra-perm" is just figuring out your beta, because there's so many options and so many holds and body positions you could cycle through to try a section. So if you've done all but two of them, I think you're, you're in good position. So I'm psyched to see how your October/November goes out there. And I've been really motivated by watching you send things lately and crush things. And it's really good to see, knowing that, you know, that's possible for me coming up.

Eric Hörst  1:02:14

100%. You know, and I mean, I guess the most important thing is we have to believe, you know, that it can totally happen. Because you know the thing – the one thing that absolutely closes the door even more than injury – is, you know, if you have disbelief in a goal or disbelief in something. And so, you know, I can believe in "Silky Smooth" and I can think I can believe in "Ultra-perm". And you know, I've had some people say, "Well, what about 14a?" you know, because I've climbed all these years and I've never projected a 14a, and, you know, and I can't say I 100% believe in it, because I mean, I have that desire, but I guess I am also enough of a coach to know I need to build that foundation. And while I guess I could jump from "Angry Birds" to sending a 14a, I think that's probably unlikely. I think it's more likely I need to, you know, you know, have a few more, you know, few more bricks in place there.

Kris Hampton  1:03:19

Yeah, there's plenty of those stepping stones out there. 

Eric Hörst  1:03:22

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Not, not in Wild Iris, though.

Kris Hampton  1:03:26

It's definitely harder in Wild Iris. I'm, I'm feeling like I did this whole thing backwards. I should be going back to the Red right about now instead of climbing out here.

Eric Hörst  1:03:36

Although, I think there's some people, you know, certainly the strong young boulderers, you know, who might think you know Wild Iris grades are easier than Red River Gorge grades. 

Kris Hampton  1:03:43

Yeah, absolutely.

Eric Hörst  1:03:44

Because some people get on the Red routes and think they're so hard. But again, it all comes back to what your strengths and weaknesses are, and for the aging Coach Hörst, it's definitely those resistance routes are where the money's at, so...

Kris Hampton  1:03:56

Well, I'm excited to see how it goes for you, man. Thanks for taking the time to sit down, I know everybody's got a busy week out here. I saw you were in town and just wanted to catch up.

Eric Hörst  1:04:06

Yeah, I'm happy to do it. It's long overdue. I think it's probably been three years maybe? Since I was last on your podcast.

Kris Hampton  1:04:12

Maybe even longer. I think you were one of my earliest episodes. So yeah, yeah. 

Eric Hörst  1:04:17

Yeah? Well, we should do it more frequently. 

Kris Hampton  1:04:18

Yeah. Let's do that. 

Eric Hörst  1:04:19

And I want to congratulate you -- all you've done in the industry and with your business and everything is very, very impressive. And it's like I joke to people, but it's also true: I think there's more training knowledge and expertise in Lander, Wyoming per capita than anywhere else in the world. Yeah, you know, because it seems like, you know, just, like, if you want to be, if you're a strong young climber, you move to Salt Lake. And if you're an aging strong coach, move to Lander.

Kris Hampton  1:04:47

Absolutely. Well, we'll see you out here soon then. Thanks, Eric. 

Eric Hörst  1:04:55

You're welcome. 

Kris Hampton  1:04:58

You know, I'm a pretty self-motivated person when it comes to my climbing, but it's always nice to hear from someone else about their experiences and the terrain that I'll be encountering. And at 48, I'm about a decade or so behind Eric, and he's proof that being smart about my training will mean that I could climb hard for many more years. Eric, I appreciate you stopping by and chatting. And I'm sure I'll see you again soon. We're rooting for you out in the Red. In your show notes, you'll find links to find Eric online, his website, podcast, social media, books – so much there, you have to check it out. You'll also find a link to my course "Coaching for Mastery", which you should check out if you're interested in helping climbers improve. The Power Company Podcast is brought to you by Power Company Climbing. You can learn, grow, and excel with us at powercompanyclimbing.com, where you'll find links to the Power Company Climbing Academy and the Knowledge & Community Hub. We're on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube: @powercompanyclimbing , but as you know, not the Twitter's. Because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.