Episode 32: Ego, Partnerships, and Awareness with Justen Sjong

Photo by Andrew Burr

Justen doesn't need an introduction, but in the off chance that you've been hiding under a rock, he's an accomplished climber and coach who has worked with a veritable who's who of American climbing elite. Justen is known for his ability to get into a climber's head and coax more out of them. I wanted to give you something different, so we don't necessarily dig into those things that you might hear about in his conversations with other climbing podcasts, like "Chalk Talk" (which you should listen to if you haven't already). Instead, we dig into ego (the good and the bad), partnerships and how they can be affected by ego, and how awareness can offset the negatives.  

You can find Justen at: www.climbingsensei.com

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:31

What's up everybody? I am your host Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 32 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. I am sitting here in Denver, Colorado at my friend Brendan Leonard's house, Brendan and Hilary Oliver's house, I guess I should say. And you might know them better as semirad.com and Juniper Media. They've been nice enough to let me use their house several times while I've been here in Denver. So shout out to you guys. Thank you. And I'm here to speak to the team at Rock'n and Jam'n and work with their coaches a little bit and my friend, Natalie, hooked that up. So thanks, Natalie. I appreciate that. I'm really looking forward to working with those guys tonight. And after tonight, I pick Nate up at the airport and we had St. Louis where I'll be emceeing the So iLL Showdown on March 24, and 25th. So if you're in the So iLL area, you should definitely show up for that comp. As far as I'm concerned, it's the indoor comp of the year. So come on out and say hello, while you're there. The following week, Nate and I will be staying in St. Louis, where we'll be running three separate workshops at So iLL on the 27th 28th and 29th. The first one will just be hanging out with us we'll give give out free advice you can ask us questions. We'll all be climbing together at the gym. And we'll do a Better Sport Climbing workshop and a Better Bouldering workshop. And we're going to wrap up that week at So iLL on Thursday, March 30 with a podcast in front of a live audience. So if you're around, please come out, we're going to be talking to some local heroes. Nate and I will both be there, you can ask us questions. It's gonna be a good time. So definitely come out. Before I start this episode off, I want to say one last thing. With this episode, we'll almost certainly hit 100,000 downloads. So thank you to you guys. That's huge. We've just been doing this a little over a year and I can't even fathom that 100,000 times people have listened to me ramble on for hours. So thank you for that. However, we only have 48 ratings and 33 reviews on iTunes. And frankly, I think we can do better. I'm looking to hit 100 reviews in 2017. So if you're a subscriber, if you're listening to this, and you haven't gone to iTunes, believe me, I know how much of a pain it is. But if you haven't gone and left us a review, left us a rating, please go do that. I greatly appreciate it. The podcast powers that be tell me that it's big for getting us in front of new people on iTunes. And, you know, thanks to you guys who have left reviews. That's that's gigantic for us. And I've got a couple I just want to highlight today from Jess Blah. She's a climbing coach, lifelong student. She says "These podcasts are pure gold. I have notepads full of information already. Keep them coming." Jess, we certainly will. Thank you. And from Erin Ayla, who I was lucky enough to meet and climb with in Hueco Tanks this season. Her title is "Awesome". And she says, "Super useful and applicable information. Keep it up guys. Love the Board Meetings. Great stuff." Thanks, Erin. We've got a Board Meeting coming the next episode with all four of us. Actually be the first one with all four of us. So looking forward to that. Today's episode, Justin Sjong. We we sat down at Justin's house last summer. So it's taken a while to get this out. But you guys know I got a backlog here. We sat down at his house and we had a really wide ranging conversation about ego, partnerships and awareness of your own climbing. So I'm just gonna jump right into this.

Justen Sjong  04:27

But when someone is climbing well, you see that natural, that rhythm like they feel it. That's the key sense that most people don't tap into when they're training. It's feeling.

Kris Hampton  04:56

So what I want to talk to you about is ego both, you know, both positive and negative because it can go both ways, right? 

Justen Sjong  05:03

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  05:04

You know, and you've worked with some high level athletes. And I'm sure there's a big ego game that goes on there. And something that Nate and I were talking about on the way over, that I want to start with that I think is pretty powerful is the sense of self worth that people take from their climbing, you know, and with pro athletes, I'm sure it's exaggerated even more, but even just the general climber has this sense of self worth tied into their climbing, be it negative or positive. So what do you see, you know, the differences between pro athletes versus the general climbing public?

Justen Sjong  05:47

Good question. Higher level athlete'svself worth, I mean, it's their identity, they highly connect to it. I often see them excel at one genre of climbing. Be it bouldering, sport, trad and they really cling to that. And I guess through the years, I've seen these people, they, they really cling to it. And then over time, their bodies can't handle it, especially like right now it seems like a lot of the strong boulderers in the last number of years are their bodies are, i don't know about breaking down, but they're getting hammered from bouldering all the time and landing. And they're starting to venture off into sport climbing or trad climbing or something different. And ego is a part because they can't. They're not throwing down the same numbers.

Justen Sjong  06:44

 Right. 

Justen Sjong  06:44

I think it's pretty cool that Carlo, yeah, he throws down big numbers bouldering obviously, but he's been taking more of an interest, it sounds like he's been up on The Diamond this year. 

Justen Sjong  06:54

Yeah. 

Justen Sjong  06:54

And I find that great. Just climbing like 5.11, 5.10s I believe. I don't know the details. And I think it's really a good thing. It requires, I think it's hard for athletes. 

Kris Hampton  07:07

Do you see, you know, because you've got so many good athletes around here, do you see people kind of fight against that? Like, if they're starting to break down, they just keep pushing and keep pushing until they're totally broken? Do you see that happening? Or is it the trend of switching disciplines kind of taking over?

Justen Sjong  07:28

I think it's age that allows them to switch over. I think they get to a certain age.

Kris Hampton  07:34

The age of maturity? 

Justen Sjong  07:35

Yeah, a lot, at least in Boulder here, a lot of people move here when they're 18.  And at that age, they're known or they're good at something, and they want to stick to it.

Kris Hampton  07:46

And they can bounce back really fast from anything

Justen Sjong  07:49

Correct. So I think it's the, with age, they get in their solid 20s, upper 20s. And then they start to be more curious. And they feel more like they've made a name for themselves. Those younger folks, they haven't quite made that, establish that name.

Kris Hampton  08:08

Yeah, that brings up something interesting. You've seen a lot of athletes, that you've worked with young and now they're, you know, older, and reaching their 30s. You know, how do you see their ego change through those years? Other than just the maturity aspect of it, you know, like when those young guys come in, are they totally brash? And, you know, or do you see some, some mindfulness there?

Justen Sjong  08:39

I guess when I, when I see these young kids, and they come in, I do see that brashness. But I don't really take it personally. They're just fighting for as much respect as they can kind of grab.

Kris Hampton  08:52

 Sure

Justen Sjong  08:55

And I do believe they have good intentions. They just they're young, they can't communicate it properly. I think that's what they struggle with. Yeah, I don't think they mean to be they come off sometimes as dicks and I don't think that's what their intention is.

Kris Hampton  09:10

Sure. And when you're young, and they come off that way, you end up coming off the same way because that's how you're reading it. 

Justen Sjong  09:18

Oh, yeah. Or in this day and age, I mean, I'm just like, Do you really mean that? Especially if it's directed towards me or towards someone else that I hear I'm like, Do you really mean that? Come on now. Do you know what it sounds like? But yeah

Kris Hampton  09:37

And this sport is kind of selfish you know, it's kind of an individualized selfish sport anyway, so you have to bring

Justen Sjong  09:42

I don't think it should be selfish though. I'm gonna push back against this. 

Kris Hampton  09:46

Okay. 

Justen Sjong  09:46

I really resent that how it is going to be selfish. If we're going to actually this is a good this is my direction back to you.

Kris Hampton  09:54

Yeah, let's go.

Justen Sjong  09:56

This modern day age of bouldering or sport climbing as I just need someone to carry extra pads up or just to hang on the other end of the rope while I climb my project. I can't stand that attitude and be like, it doesn't matter who your partner is. I know you climb better with certain people and certain energies, sure, but this day and age, it's like, I don't need someone else. I just need pads or someone to belay me. And there's no partner connection at all. I think it's deteriorating.

Kris Hampton  10:29

Yeah, we definitely don't hear of it anymore like the Pianna-Skinner,  Kauk-Bachar, the you know, those old partnerships.

Justen Sjong  10:35

And yeah, you could say, well, we're not as cliquey anymore. But it's also there's not a tightness. Like, with a good partner, you can be vulnerable. Like, I like I was climbing with Adam Stack this morning, Adam, I've known since he was a kid. 

Kris Hampton  10:49

Yeah. 

Justen Sjong  10:50

And yeah, he was a little punk ass bitch when he was young and mouthy, and, yeah, funny, but pushed it too far. And he's totally mellowed out now. It's very interesting to be around Adam. But we had a partnership. And he knows, like, when I go climbing with him that yeah, I'm not the boldest dude out there. And so when I say watch me, he's like, yeah, I'll watch you. I got it. I know it's not that hard, but I know how you get, and I want to be here for you. And I want you to have a good day, too. And so I think it's really important that I wish there was a stronger partnership amongst people where

Kris Hampton  11:28

I think I agree completely. Can we kind of shift gears and go that direction? I think,

Justen Sjong  11:33

Yeah, I mean, it's just like the belaying thing. More and more people are getting dropped. Why? Because they don't even connect to their belayer when they take off. It's like they tie in and they start going up. And I've seen this at like popular crags. It's like, I'll ask like, are you tied in? Oh its too late? And I'm like it's not too late, you're at the third bolt and I can't recall if I actually checked you. Did you double back? And is are you cool?  And don't give me attitude. I'm trying to get your back and you just took off? 

Kris Hampton  12:02

Yep. 

Justen Sjong  12:03

So it's like, I really wish people would, like, look me in the eye as a belayer. And say, we ready to go for this? Yeah, we're ready to go for this. Let's do it. And then because that's how I see it is my, they're the athletes, they, their job is to put on that good show. My job is to be an audience. But if you don't even want as an actor or performer to engage your audience, I could care less man, I'm gonna go down there and surf on my phone if you're gonna be a jerk or dissing not engage me. It's just like, oh, what's going on? I got Ding, ding ding.

Kris Hampton  12:38

Yeah, I completely agree. I definitely think partnerships are maybe the most important part of this thing. You know, I can't, I don't want to leave the ground and I'm not going to be able to try my hardest if my belayer is just some random person. I'm not good at, at just grabbing random people to go climbing with, you know. I definitely like to have a connection while I'm out there. What do you think's driving this? You know, like, like you said, it's going toward a selfish way. And you don't like that?

Justen Sjong  13:11

I think that it has a lot to do with. I mean, there is a larger sense of community. I mean, you go to the gym.

Kris Hampton  13:18

 Yeah. 

Justen Sjong  13:18

And there's a large sense of community. And it's like, oh, I know, so and so. And I know so and so. Okay, I'm looking for a belay, you're looking for a belayer you're looking to climb, let's kind of hang out together. But it's, for lack of, I mean, this is probably a lame analogy, but it's probably like just Facebook friends. Like let's just be friends. And like, I don't know this person. And I've met them, but I don't know them. I would never consider them a friend. 

Kris Hampton  13:47

Right.

Justen Sjong  13:48

 Just like for you and I, we're not friends. I know you. We've had a couple interactions. But like that connection,

Kris Hampton  13:55

Right.

Justen Sjong  13:56

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  13:57

Do you think you develop that by going climbing? Or do you want to have that connection with someone before you go climbing?

Justen Sjong  14:03

Oh, I develop it while climbing I think, don't you?

Kris Hampton  14:06

That's what, for sure, that's the way I would do it. 

Justen Sjong  14:09

Yeah, I love it. Build it, because I get to see that individual for who they really are. That's what the awesome thing about climbing is, is you can't hide who you are. I mean, you are who you are. And you get to see, you read the person's body language for who they are.

Kris Hampton  14:24

Yeah. And you get to watch people grow in a pretty cool way.

Justen Sjong  14:26

Yeah, when you go rock climb and evolve over time you build that it's like that long term friendship. If you have that decade, multi decade friendship, you you've seen that history of that friend, it's the same thing with climbing. It's like, okay, I knew this person there and you see these journey, this journey that they're on. 

Kris Hampton  14:43

So when you're thinking of like a big, you know, not necessarily a project that you want to do, but but a big objective that you have, do you think in terms of, of partnerships in that or is it something that that's your objective, and you'll reach out to one of your many partners?

Justen Sjong  15:05

Ah, that's a good question. I would say often it's just a mutual relationship.

Kris Hampton  15:13

So you want someone else with that same objective?

Justen Sjong  15:16

Yeah, like, um, all my El Cap routes, I had really tight connections with everybody that I climbed with. And it forms over time. Any sport climb project, same thing. It forms over time. I do like that. I like that connection.

Kris Hampton  15:36

Yeah. So for you, it's not really a selfish thing at all. You're, I mean, obviously, there's some this is what I want to do. But you're looking at it from a relationship point of view?

Justen Sjong  15:51

Well, I think it's just, I mean, I just love climbing. I just want to climb. So it's if I get that partner, and at the end of the day, I can tell that they had a great day. Yeah, it really helps me have a grip. It's makes my day seem better, or they're having a great time. 

Kris Hampton  16:10

Yep. 

Kris Hampton  16:10

It really connects to me. Especially when, like tomorrow, and I'm supposed to do 30 pitches for Chelsea Rude's birthday. And I think it's gonna be hard for her. She's becoming a trad climber and she's scared of Eldo for probably good reasons. And she'll probably fall apart. Because that's part of the challenge. And it's exciting to be there with her. And like, that's where that connection grows is like when you you see a real moment. It gets exciting.

Kris Hampton  16:42

 Yeah, for sure.

Justen Sjong  16:43

 Like, for my 45th, that's where she kind of got I think, was I did 45 pitches. And like I cramped up in the middle of day and I told my partner, college kid, I'm like, I think I'm done. I don't know. Oh, come on. Let's do it.Let's finish it. And I'm like, my biceps are cramping. Like, I'm gonna take a huge whip soon.

Kris Hampton  17:03

Yeah. So what about when your partner is not having a good day? How do you, how do you handle that as a partnership without being selfish and just saying I still need to continue doing my thing?

Justen Sjong  17:16

I'll have to I mean, you can if I'm having a decent day, because sometimes I'm on that opposite end. And I wish what I like to do, if I feel comfortable, just call the person out. Why you being a dick today. What's wrong? And just kind of like, get it out there. And then there's usually something going on, they just need someone to talk to, or open up and just say it out. And then the day usually turns around.

Kris Hampton  17:41

Get it out there in the open.

Justen Sjong  17:43

Yeah, it's the same thing with any fears, like headcases 

Kris Hampton  17:45

Any kind of relationship too

Justen Sjong  17:47

Any relationship or relationship with your project even. So many people are, I find in denial about their fears. And it's like, Come on, now I know you're scared. I know you're intimidated for something, just say it's gonna make it so much easier. And people are hesitant usually at first because they don't feel safe. They don't feel like they can be vulnerable. And that's why that partnership i think is important. 

Kris Hampton  18:16

Yep. 

Justen Sjong  18:16

When I have a strong partnership, I can just say it how it is.

Kris Hampton  18:20

Yeah, it's funny when I was having a conversation with BJ Tilden's wife, my fiancee and I were having dinner with BJ and his wife. And we were talking about what did the guys talk about at the crag? Because the girls had all been going climbing together and you know, they pour everything out. And BJ and I were like, we don't really talk about anything. Like we talk about climbing and projects. And you know, and it seemed interesting to me that the girls took it this this completely different direction than the guys do. And I definitely believe I have a good partnership with BJ when we're going climbing. But it doesn't have to be totally emotional. And he'll call me out, you know, if I'm being a pussy on something, he'll call me out. And I appreciate that. With do you have a difference with guy girl partnerships, like when you're with a girl? Is it different than if you're climbing with a guy? Are you just open the same way both ways?

Justen Sjong  19:18

I would say I'm emotionally open the same way. I would say I'm naturally more protective, the opposite way. Like if I'm trad climbing,

Kris Hampton  19:28

For trad climbing you want a different partner?

Justen Sjong  19:32

I will put myself in more risk. And I guess maybe it's not it's more that. I wouldn't I guess it's not because I'm going through I do the same thing just with someone skill set. If I'm going trad climbing and someone is not comfortable with or I don't perceive them as being comfortable on a certain runout or commitment level or grade. I'm just like,I'll do it.

Kris Hampton  19:59

 Okay.

Justen Sjong  20:01

But I don't know if that's but during the day, yeah, I'm pretty open.

Kris Hampton  20:05

Okay. I mean, I'm definitely more open, I think, with women than I am with men. And I don't know why that is, but but I like the the male climbing partnership better. 

Justen Sjong  20:17

Yeah, so you push harder. You like it gets you near your limit?

Kris Hampton  20:24

Yep. 

Justen Sjong  20:24

Or at your limit

Kris Hampton  20:25

 Unless it's my fiancee or if I've also also found that when my daughter is nearby and cheering me on, that's huge for me to like, because I can just block out other voices and I can pick out her voice, I can pick out my fiancee's voice. And oftentimes, if I'm with one of my male climbing partners, it's their voice that I hear. So and I think that's really important. If you've never experienced that, when you're climbing, then maybe you're just not finding the right partners, you know? Or maybe you're not looking for partnerships at all, like you said, you're just going climbing with whoever, what,

Justen Sjong  21:01

Maybe I started off too strong, where there's partnerships, but I just don't think it's the same degree. 

Kris Hampton  21:07

Yep.

Justen Sjong  21:08

 I don't think it's the same degree where it has been in the past with climbers. 

Kris Hampton  21:15

Yeah, I can go sport climbing with a lot of people. You know, a lot of people that I've barely ever climbed with or had conversations with. But you're right, if it's gonna be a big objective, if it's something you're really emotionally invested in, I think you need somebody that you're close to. 

Justen Sjong  21:31

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  21:32

 Yeah. So let's go back to your El Cap partnerships. You've partnered up with I know you partner with Tommy on The Mirror Wall, was that right?

Justen Sjong  21:41

 Magic Mushroom

Kris Hampton  21:42

 With Magic Mushroom, right. So what's that kind of partnership like, where?

Justen Sjong  21:49

Stressful, stressful as far as it was never stressful about logistics. We both like nailed that workload, not an issue. I mean, you're climbing with Tommy and it's just like, God, like, I just had these conversations I was having with Adam today where it was like, I wonder if I could have, if it would have made it worse if I knew that Tommy was gonna go next week and do it in a day? 

Kris Hampton  22:20

Right. 

Justen Sjong  22:21

Would that mess with me even more, just this notion of like, I could barely do it over five or seven days, wherever it was. And this idea of, I'm gonna come back and do it in 24 hours. I feel like fuck you.

Kris Hampton  22:37

It's tough.

Justen Sjong  22:39

It's that ego. That word ego where it's just like, it hurts. It's like, Ah, yeah, Iknow. You're better than me but damn, are you that much better?

Kris Hampton  22:48

Yeah. And that's, and that's what I'm wondering like, if you know, your partner on this wall is the guy destined to become the greatest wall climber we've ever seen, wall free climber we've seen. So how does that affect your try hard when you're on the wall? Are you trying harder? Or are you cowering a little and letting him do his thing?

Justen Sjong  23:12

It goes both ways. I mean, he's, you naturally have I think, in a partnership, a leader and first the A team and the B team. 

Kris Hampton  23:21

Yeah. 

Justen Sjong  23:22

And, like, I can think of a number of pitches, one down low, where it was only 1c, but it was off a bunch of heads. I was like, it's you, Tommy. Have fun. 

Kris Hampton  23:32

No doubt.

Justen Sjong  23:33

 I don't think I can do this right now. And it was on a bunch of small heads. And I was just like, I just can't I don't foresee me doing this right now. I don't have this dialed enough. And he's like, cool. And got the job done.

Kris Hampton  23:48

And when you were on the wall, were you aware of the, like, the ego games that you could be playing with yourself?

Justen Sjong  23:56

I was aware of it. It goes back to that partnership. Tommy and I have known each other for quite a while and but we hadn't climbed together that much. 

Kris Hampton  24:06

Okay. 

Justen Sjong  24:07

And that was the first time on the wall where and it I mean, yeah, I always looked up to Tommy. I admired him and it was exciting. And it was a big unknown project, but I knew the most stressful part was okay, he's gonna get it done. But am I gonna be able to get done in time?

Kris Hampton  24:28

Right. Are there things you know, actionable things you did on the wall to lessen that destructive part of the ego?

Justen Sjong  24:36

I didn't do anything. I was just. No, I mean, I thought I was, I rested more. Like we would session on the wall for a couple days we come down, and he would just like boot up and boulder for another day. It's just like your bouldering right now? Damn, I can't even likethink about climbing. My fingers hurt.

Kris Hampton  25:01

 Yep.

Justen Sjong  25:02

 And he's just, he's training some more.

Kris Hampton  25:04

That's a pretty mature decision to just be able to say, I'm not gonna do that you go ahead and do that. I'm gonna hang back.

Justen Sjong  25:12

Yeah, you might say it's mature, but I would say it beats you too. It's just like, cuz I mean, when you're young and driven or driven, it's like, I want to keep up with the big dog. 

Kris Hampton  25:23

Right 

Justen Sjong  25:23

And I want to do it if that's what it needs, but it's like, Okay, if I do that right now, I might not walk away with anything, right? It could be five weeks and walk away with nothing. And there's a sliver of hope here. I'm gonna put it in my favor. I can't boulder. I just couldn't. My skin needed repair, and then he would work on his house some and I would just sleep.

Kris Hampton  25:48

So in a sense, you let your ego take you to make better decisions, because you wanted to keep up in the long run.

Justen Sjong  25:57

You might make decisions, but internally, there's that battle.

Kris Hampton  26:01

Oh, for sure. 

Justen Sjong  26:01

And I think that's what we all struggle with, when we talk about ego is there's that internal battle of that self worth. And it's like, I might not be worth it. I'm less worthy than this other person. And that's hard, I think to deal with.

Kris Hampton  26:17

Yeah. And that's what I'm kind of getting at, like how, you know, with Tommy being your partner, how, how do you deal with that?

Justen Sjong  26:29

He's good about I mean, he's a good partner. He's very good at putting you at ease.

Kris Hampton  26:33

 And maybe that's a big part of it.

Justen Sjong  26:35

I mean, there's this relationship partners, having a partner in any sense. Yes, there's a relate to a relationship.

Kris Hampton  26:43

We saw that with him on the Dawn Wall with Kevin. You know, he hung back and waited.

Justen Sjong  26:50

Yeah. It's hard. 

Kris Hampton  26:55

When going back onto the ego track here, you just did, I guess it was last year, you guys did the Black Diamond Boot Camp? And you got you had Sam and Dan, and Joe. All three pretty radically different personalities and definitely ego built into all three. And there has to be the I think there has to be to push yourself in a sport like this. But how did you, was there something you saw different in the three of them that you could help the three of them along with by pointing out the others?

Justen Sjong  27:33

That was an interesting, kind of a couple months session. There is a lot of ego. And I don't say necessarily, when we use that word ego is usually negative. 

Kris Hampton  27:48

Yes,

Justen Sjong  27:48

Someone has an ego. It's a really loaded word. But I think for anyone to push a standard or push themselves to the limit, you have to have an ego, your ego is not necessarily a negative thing and ego, drive, I mean

Kris Hampton  28:07

That's a good word for it. Drive.

Justen Sjong  28:09

But that's, at this moment, drive is, we use that in the positive right? Where ego, oh, they have an ego, it's negative.

Kris Hampton  28:17

 Right. 

Justen Sjong  28:18

And the ego is what makes you get up and work hard and push. But they all like you stated, they all have different personalities. They all have an ego. They're all high end athletes. They all want to push it. But their personalities are very different. 

Kris Hampton  28:36

Yeah.

Justen Sjong  28:37

 Joe's very outgoing. Dan's much more quiet. Sam is very expressive. And it was, as a coach, it was a great experience as far as because I believe in struggle, we learn the most when we struggle. So I had a struggling moment with that camp, I would say, because it was on many levels just challenging. They all wanted what was best for them. But it's a training camp, you can't, it's not on individual needs. It's it's a group thing. Trying to get them to understand that one's behavior affects the other. Just that team camaraderie. If you, it's not a zero sum game. A lot of us believe climbing is a zero sum game. So if you have a badass day, that means I'm having a bad day?

Kris Hampton  29:34

 Right. 

Justen Sjong  29:35

And that's not true. And we see this on the send train. So if you send sometimes the environment's good where it's like you send, then you send and then you send and it just keeps going and other times it's you send and then everyone else gets shut down. 

Kris Hampton  29:49

Right. 

Justen Sjong  29:49

That's an environment thing. And it's it's interesting, I think when you..... it's hard to express to people, like calling  them out on their stuff.

Kris Hampton  30:01

Oh, definitely. And I think you know, we take an emotional hit if you're being called out. And climbing is an emotional thing, no matter how you look at it.

Justen Sjong  30:11

Oh, it should be emotional.

Kris Hampton  30:12

 Yeah, for sure. 

Justen Sjong  30:13

I think so. I love the emotional part. I mean, there's the negative, ugly side of fear and all that. But there's this other side of fight, desire, want, drive and just like grrr. You see that and that's emotion. And I think at a certain point in everybody's climbing, if they're climbing long enough, they think that the next stage is to eliminate emotion.

Kris Hampton  30:35

Okay,

Justen Sjong  30:36

I think somewhere within everyone's climbing, they, they come to this point where it's like, I'm eliminating emotion. I'm just gonna be a cold calculating killer robot. I'm just gonna go in and destroy, just grrrr. But you can't reach that upper potential, I don't think, because that's where emotion, because when you show emotion, that positive emotion, it does affect your environment. And it does become contagious, and people start driving energy towards you. And that's, I think what you're hitting on on when you said that you could hear your daughter, your fiancee's voice down there. So others are watching. They're, they're paying attention. They're aware, I need to put on a good show. I need to do this.

Kris Hampton  31:18

Right. Yeah, my fiancee always says that she knows when I'm about to send something whenever people walk up, and I just have a natural, 

Justen Sjong  31:30

You respond to those people.

Kris Hampton  31:31

 I respond to a crowd. You know, that's, that's just what I've always done from music to now, whenever I'm on a stage in front of people, I'm at my most comfortable. And, and she said multiple times, you know, as soon as that crowd walked up, I knew you were sending. And I think that's, that's ego. You know, part of that is me wanting to perform for people, you know. But I, but I've learned to use that to my advantage. 

Justen Sjong  32:03

But a lot of people would twist that and say, Oh,  you don't climb yourself. 

Kris Hampton  32:08

For sure. I could definitely be called a show pony. I could see that. 

Justen Sjong  32:12

But is that a bad thing?

Kris Hampton  32:13

I don't think so. I don't think so. 

Justen Sjong  32:16

Because that's where I always get angry or frustrated when people say like, oh, you're just doing it for this or that. And it's like, Hey, we all want to feel worthy.

Kris Hampton  32:25

Yeah. And we all want to put good energy back out there. You know, and like you said, the partnership is so important. If I have a partner who's just bad energy all the time, that's not going to be my partner for very long. You know, and if I can take my ego and use it to perform, and then have that turn into good energy, then that's good for everybody, I think. 

Justen Sjong  32:49

Yeah. I would agree.

Kris Hampton  32:50

 Yeah. So looking at Joe and Dan and Sam, were there any particular challenges having those three guys, all strong, all good athletes? Were there particular challenges getting their egos to work together?

Justen Sjong  33:11

Oh, yeah. Because of the project, it was also, I don't think there was as much emphasis, maybe there was some in the videos that people saw. I mean, they lived together. I mean, they trained together, lived together, they were together for quite a bit. And they had no personal

Kris Hampton  33:27

 And they weren't like great friends leading up to that. 

Justen Sjong  33:29

They all know each other well. But I wouldn't say

Kris Hampton  33:33

 But they weren't like road homies for years or something like that.

Justen Sjong  33:37

Hmmm probably some of them are more connected than others throughout their life. But yeah, I would say, not roommates. So yeah, I mean, Joe. Joe had never trained. He was super excited, over motivated and thought he could do more than he could and got injured early on. And that was a bummer. Dan was struggling with the finger thing and he wanted to show that he could work hard. He wanted to, like I can work hard, but it's like he's broken. He can only do so much, I felt. 

Kris Hampton  33:52

Yep.

Justen Sjong  34:09

 And a lot of people they, and I'm sure you guys see this, is if you're not physically trying hard, you're not necessarily training. And there's all these other components that are much more vague and nuanced that takes more mindfulness to actually train. But it's externally it's not as easy for people to grab, like, Oh, yeah, he's working hard.

Kris Hampton  34:55

So it's not a tangible thing.

Justen Sjong  34:56

Yeah, you just see someone but if you see someone mindfully rolling out on a foam roller and they're like, Whoa, that, it could look that way. 

Kris Hampton  35:05

Right.

Justen Sjong  35:05

 But most people, they're like errr errr errr okay I'm done. And then off they go. Yep. And that's sort of like ok, im gonna hangboard errr errr errr. And there's not this........more.......that they're providing. So I think Dan struggled with finding that 

Kris Hampton  35:23

And Dan going in was kind of the, the underdog of the group, you know, he definitely isn't as well known as Joe and Sam.

Justen Sjong  35:33

 Socially in like a

Kris Hampton  35:34

 Right in the general climbing community. So, you know, it's likely that he probably had the same sort of feeling that that you might have had with Tommy on Magic Mushroom. 

Justen Sjong  35:46

Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. 

Kris Hampton  35:48

Should I defer to these two guys? Because they're the better guys.

Justen Sjong  35:52

There's the defer, or I think it's more that you just want to prove that you're on the same playing field, that you're worthy enough to play on the same field.

Kris Hampton  36:02

For sure. 

Justen Sjong  36:06

But yeah, that's. And then Sam was a, he, he kind of did buy into that zero sum game. So if one person was having a great day, and he wasn't able to keep up, that would bring him down. And I think that's a common thing that a lot of people do.

Kris Hampton  36:28

 I've seen it in couples quite a bit. 

Justen Sjong  36:30

Like relationship couples?

Kris Hampton  36:32

Yeah, I mean, when they're out climbing, oh, no, if the girl's having a great day, the guy's day just goes to shit automatically. I've seen that happen a lot.

Justen Sjong  36:42

 Interesting. Interesting. 

Kris Hampton  36:45

When Joe got injured, was he able to keep his stoke up for everyone else?

Justen Sjong  36:50

Oh, no, that was what I because that was the first because I mean, I know them all socially.

Kris Hampton  36:55

 Right. Right.

Justen Sjong  36:56

 Like, I mean, I've known Joe for a while, but I haven't really hung out with him. So I was like, really? On the side? Are you really Mr. Psych all the time? It's like, Yeah, and I think No, really, no one could be that like, all the time, and then he hurt his finger and he wasn't psyched.

Kris Hampton  37:13

 Yeah. 

Justen Sjong  37:14

And he was bummed. Like, he wouldn't show up for a couple days, because he was pissed. He was bummed. He's probably mad at himself for doing it. Not listening or just overdoing it or just thinking that this gym crap is gonna bust me because I hear that, it happens often. And he was bummed. And I think it's, but Joe is one of those people that is genuinely very positive. 

Kris Hampton  37:41

Yeah he is

Justen Sjong  37:42

And he has good energy, which is quite nice to be around. It's interesting. It's interesting.

Kris Hampton  37:50

Yeah, I agree completely. First time I ever climbed with Joe, he was, I was only climbing, you know, V6 or something. And he was just as psyched for me as he was for him. 

Justen Sjong  38:01

Yeah

Kris Hampton  38:01

You know, and that's great to see. But it's interesting that you, you say he couldn't keep that up once he was injured. And I think that that's, you know, partly to do with when you have that heavy drive, and, you know, especially when other guys are involved, and there's a bit of a competition happening, which is going to happen when you have guys together, then and when something falls apart for you, it just seems like it's that much further to fall. So you know, your egos gonna take a giant hit when that kind of thing happens. But he was able to bounce back eventually, I'm sure, through being pulled up by all you guys.

Justen Sjong  38:43

Yeah in time, he turned it around. Felt better after a while. I mean, it was a three month project I believe.

Kris Hampton  38:50

Cool. Back to ego again, when you're when you're say working with competition athletes, whose whose main focus is just to be a competitor, do you see something different in them as far as how they need to harness their, the positive side of their ego or their drive as approach as opposed to outdoor general climbing public?

Justen Sjong  39:21

Um, I think there's a lot more stress, I think, when you're competing because you do dedicate, I mean, in this day and age to climb well, these comps, you have to dedicate a lot of time in the gym. And I mean gym climbing is great, but after a while, you just want to shoot yourself. I mean, how many times how much time can you go in there? And they log hours and hours and hours and they do a great job. And that's why I think most of them are young, because they're limited. They can't really get out as often. They can't travel and that sort of thing. But when you go you invest months of effort, and then you go game day, and it all falls on you. And you have to perform well that day. And most people, all they do is they train so they don't screw up.

Kris Hampton  40:17

 Right.

Justen Sjong  40:18

And it's really hard to like that ego is like self worth. And it's like, no, they have, they have to, they don't really train it properly, because they train is like, like, You are worthy to be there. And you deserve to be there. But you and everyone else deserves to be there. But you have to show up and show that you want to be there and that you are an amazing person, that you are an amazing climber, but you have to bring that. You can't just kind of warm up and then do it. I mean, everyone's expecting you to do that. And emotionally, a lot of those climbers aren't built that way. I think a lot of climbers as a community, were a bunch of nerdy folks. You're all quiet and awkward and finicky. We're not showboats like, "Look at me", like your traditional athletes are very "Well look at me look at me", right? Climbers are like, they're pretty intelligent. They're over thinkers, and they think they can outsmart and that's the thing they train, they think they can outsmart. And you see this and you'll see this like bouldering format, you'll see the boulderer as they try and they fall. And they sit there and they stare at the wall as if something like "Oh, there it is!" . Like, "Oh, I forgot. The arete's on!". It's like, no, I don't know what and they just stare and stew. And they don't back off and just feel. And they like I don't think that people train effectively. Like, I need you to train to like to be awesome. Like, I need you to become The Man or The Woman. And like I need to watch you and go "Yeah, nice rhythm". Because it's just I talk a lot about dancing and I don't dance. I'm terrible at dancing. But when someone is climbing well, you see that natural that rhythm. Like they feel it. And that's the key sense that most people don't tap into when they're training is feeling. And some people are like oh, don't tell me how you. Do you feel like you need a rest day? You should listen to your body. But just like feel like feel when your body should generate. Feel when your body should go. Feel when you're mentally ready. So when that climber falls off that competition problem, they come down. My common thing is I try to teach these people to look down or turn your back to the problem and feel first what just happened. But it takes like the ego so strong, it's like I shouldn't have fallen, that's so damn easy. I shouldn't be able to do that. And it's like, back off, like just just back off and just figure out diagnose what happened and and really come up with a solution about what we need to fix, or how we're how we're going to approach this.

Kris Hampton  43:08

Mm hmm. And do you do that on routes too, like if someone falls off of a route? Say it's just a general climber and they fall off of a route they're working on? Do you take the same sort of approach kind of back away from it for a second,

Justen Sjong  43:22

But it's that awareness piece. I think most people can't even feel what actually happened, right? And they watch themselves and they think that I'm just not strong enough. And it's like, dude, I saw you. You were tired and you generated, because your knees and toes work as a unit and when you're tired and intimidated, you are knee dominant, so your trajectories out, but all they hit the hold, but their bodies, their hips are falling out. And all they feel is my fingers aren't strong enough to hold my body back, pull my body back in. And it's like your fingers are plenty strong. And your toes aren't, your kids downstairs aren't doing their job. They're not pulling. They're not reeling your hips back in. But they don't even notice that, that it's just because their forearms are pumped and they're just like here or their cores been engaged too long. So if the timing is off, or who knows there's so many moving parts, but they can't look back and honestly just be aware of like, so what happened. Okay, so, or even the storyline. Route climbing i think is a longer storyline.

Kris Hampton  44:27

Sure.

Justen Sjong  44:27

 It's like okay, a story starts way down, a number of draws and things start going spiraling forward or backwards. And

Kris Hampton  44:37

So how do you how do you get them to kind of drop that you know, that ego that causes them to

Justen Sjong  44:45

 Denial

Kris Hampton  44:46

 Yeah, the denial. Exactly.

Justen Sjong  44:48

I think video is like the easiest way. That's why I love pulling out is like bullshit. You're scared right here. Look. You totally. I got it, you can see it right. Yeah, and they are like see, you can't deny it.

Kris Hampton  45:03

Or is something they can do. You know, if they're out, if they're out with just their partner, and they're working on a route and they fall, and they go immediately to that, you know, my fingers aren't strong enough or whatever. What can people do to calm themselves down and be able to look at what happened and feel what happened? Or is it just a thing they have to practice over time?

Justen Sjong  45:27

I think it's something you have to get, that awareness, that feel beyond a recall. I mean, I've not come across very many people that can do it well, naturally, without much guidance. And even with guidance it takes a long time, I think.

Kris Hampton  45:41

Sure. How would they go about working on it? What's something they can do to

Justen Sjong  45:47

I just start off with the single move system board. Right side, left side, evaluate one side, boom, you're awesome on this side? Okay. The left side, you're not so good, or whatever. And it's like, well, not left handed, right handed? Like, it's not that. It goes to the focal point of the weakness part, there's a moving part that's not as athletic or is this muscle memory is not as strong, it's not firing quite as well. And you need to find the source of that problem. So you can do the good side, and you feel good. Now you do the weaker side, and then the good side.

Kris Hampton  46:23

Yeah, I also like to have people, and this doesn't work as well on a route as a boulder problem. But if I'm in the gym, and someone can do a move really easily that I can't do, you know, I'm like, do that again. Show me that again, you know, and I want to, I want to try to see what's happening in that move for them that that I can't feel happening in my move.

Justen Sjong  46:46

 Correct. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  46:48

 And I think that's super important. And I don't think people use that enough, they watch the stronger climbers, and either, they pretty much just automatically go to, oh, he's just stronger than me, you know? And that's not always, in fact, it's probably less times the answer.

Justen Sjong  47:05

 Correct.

Kris Hampton  47:06

 It's something they're doing better than you. But doesn't necessarily mean they're the stronger person, you know. And I think you have to drop your ego to approach that person and say, Can you do that again? Can I can I watch you do that, especially if they're your peer? Or if there's somebody who you have deemed to not be as good as you and they can do a move that you can't do.

Justen Sjong  47:29

And often people will just turn around and walk away and it's kind of be like "stupid routesetter" at me.

Kris Hampton  47:33

Yeah, yeah, these routesetters suck. You know, that happens all the time. Do you see particularly destructive ego patterns in the gym, just amongst the general climbing public?  Other than blaming the route setters.

Justen Sjong  47:54

I don't think. People are getting better about don't blame the route setters. That's been around for a while. So I think that your current generation, you guys are doing a better job.

Kris Hampton  48:02

You have good route setters here, too.

Justen Sjong  48:06

Um, I think that I think boulderers have, they need to stop sitting down and pouting at the base of the wall in the gym. They need to stand up, walk away. I can't tell you how that's my most common, like, cool, we worked it out, walk away, go, just walk, come back. Like I just send them off somewhere. And eventually, I'm like, I'm sending,  just sending you off. I don't care what you do. Just go. And then they come back. After a couple power spots on that thing. I'm like, Okay, let's do some linkage, or go for the send. Pop your shoes back on. And they usually do remarkably well. But if we just pop our shoes off, and we sit at the base, they don't nearly do as well. It's I mean, it's crazy how accurate that can be. 

Kris Hampton  48:56

Do you think they're just staring at it psyching themselves out or getting frustrated?

Justen Sjong  49:00

They are thinking about it. Like if they're facing it, they're staring at it. It depends on what the floor structure is. Sometimes their backs are turned and their feet are going away. But they're still kind of sitting there in that pouty position. And it's just getting them to stand up and distance themselves. Like stop thinking. It's exhausting to think all day.

Kris Hampton  49:19

Yeah. Yeah, and it's an emotional, like we've already touched on, it's an emotional thing. If you just keep stewing in that emotion of just failing, then, you know, it's likely to carry over.

Justen Sjong  49:32

Correct. Training that person to think about what they do want, what do you want, what do you want? Don't and some people are really good at pointing out what they don't want, and it's like, okay, that's great. It's kind of functional, but I need you to state something in the positive what you do want. I mean, like, yeah, you're skiing down the hill, skiing through the trees. Like most people that ae new to ski terrain, ski tree, skiing trees, all they think about is not hitting the damn trees.

Kris Hampton  50:00

Right.

Justen Sjong  50:01

 But if you're an experienced skier, you're just like looking at the spaces. And that's the same thing with climbing. You got to think about what you do want, not like Oh, what if my foot blows. My foot's gonna blow. I'll smack my face. Especially on the top out of the boulder problem.

Kris Hampton  50:18

Top outs are the bane of the gym climber's existence.

Justen Sjong  50:22

Gosh yeah. Right here too.

Kris Hampton  50:26

We are from the South, so top outs are a little different down there. 

Justen Sjong  50:30

Yeah, they're scary.

Kris Hampton  50:32

What about the climber to climber ego? You know, what, what do you see destructive in the gym there? And how can we go about

Justen Sjong  50:41

I think as a community, and I'm guilty of that, of

Kris Hampton  50:45

I definitely am

Justen Sjong  50:46

Giving people kudos, especially when you see something impressive, regardless of the grade. Like that was good, nice and, and actually point out what you thought was nice, not just a blanket statement, but that creates a very positive atmosphere. And yeah, then all tides rise. And because often, I mean, it's lonely, if you're a strong climber is and some of the strongest climbers are the loneliest climbers in the gym, because they don't have anything, anyone to climb with. 

Kris Hampton  51:17

Right.

Justen Sjong  51:18

But you have to still give back because those people can give back to you. I mean, I get insightful information from people that climb at a lower grade than I do all the time. 

Kris Hampton  51:29

Sure.

Justen Sjong  51:31

 But you're not going to get that insight unless you make yourself approachable.

Kris Hampton  51:35

Yep, you know, something that we're just talking about, that I see pretty often with, with the ego kind of being destructive in the gym, is there are going to be kids in there who are just jumpy, and can do every jumpy, dynamic move in the gym super easily. And it's really easy to dismiss things as Oh, that's just their style. You know, but, but for me, and I've had a really hard time with this. I've struggled with it, because I am a slow, static, super controlled climber, you know, and I've worked hard to become more dynamic, I'm still not really good at it. Barely good at it. But when I see these kids in the gym, I can I automatically go to Oh, that's that's not you know, that's not efficient. I automatically go there. But my best days have come from watching this kid do some crazy dynamic move or doing some move in a totally different way than I would do it. And then going, let me try that his way, you know, and we're spending 25 or 30 minutes learning how to do it his way. As opposed to the way I can do it every time which is my static slow sloth like method. You know, my best days have come from that from letting my ego down and just doing it. Even though I might climb harder than him outside. 

Justen Sjong  53:03

Why do you climb more static? What's your conclusion these days? 

Kris Hampton  53:07

I think it comes from when I started climbing, it was like Francois LeGrand was the cool thing to watch. And I was a trad climber. And that was just the style we climbed in and it felt good. People told me it look good, you know. So I think I just stuck with that. And it wasn't until Sharma came along and was this jumpy kid. And I started to realize that, oh, maybe that could work. I still never even gave it the time to learn it. I would occasionally do a dyno if it was in the gym, or I would have to do some dynamic move. And I would get through it.

Justen Sjong  53:48

Can you pogo?

Kris Hampton  53:49

I've spent a ton of time actually, because of Carlo's videos, I've spent a ton of time learning that technique. And now I find myself using it occasionally. You know, and feeling like I'm getting better at learning when to use it or when it's gonna be more effective. So, but I think again, you have to drop your ego to practice the shit in the gym. Because people are watching you fail on something that's easy for that kid over there. Yeah, you know, it's really hard to drop your ego and do that.

Justen Sjong  54:22

Yeah, I see, I probably shouldn't drop his name, but a famous climber come in, and he just dreads climbing in the gym because it but he's learned to accept it because, I mean, he's this person that everybody in the world knows. And he gets schooled by tons of young kids or even adults just schooled. And he's just like errrr, and it's, it's hard. 

Kris Hampton  54:51

It's really hard. 

Justen Sjong  54:52

And my say is, I mean, my feedback was like, give it to these people. I mean, give it to them. I mean, you're this person that's amazing. I mean, make them feel good for once and make them feel good about that they can school you, and just change that direction and you'll climb a little bit better, most likely, but the gym is very productive tool to use.

Kris Hampton  55:15

Yeah. And he and at least in my case, he would feel better. You know, it feels good to me when I am able to not just be the grouchy old guy.

Justen Sjong  55:26

 But it's fun being grouchy.

Kris Hampton  55:27

 It is, it is really fun being grouchy.

Justen Sjong  55:28

Yeah, I like being the grouchy old guy.

Kris Hampton  55:31

I've definitely done my time being the grouchy old guy. But it's, it's really, it's a good feeling when I can be like, Oh, man, that's fucking cool. How do you do that? You know? Because then they get really psyched to be helping you, you know. And that's a super good feeling for everybody. 

Justen Sjong  55:47

It is and I agree. I wish the stronger community would do that more. But it's hard. I mean, there's frustrations, I see why we don't. But

Kris Hampton  56:01

Yeah, what are you learning from the kids these days? Because you've got some really strong kids around here.

Justen Sjong  56:07

Ah, what are we? I mean, they're, it's just that age old thing is the what used to be hard, It's just not hard. And they just piss all over it. 

Kris Hampton  56:25

Yeah, that's huge.

Justen Sjong  56:26

 And it's a and I do have that crusty attitude, like you were saying, like, well, they didn't look smooth, and they didn't really, it comes with time. But it's amazing how much they can execute. Like, there's like, no way I can climb that, in that style, but yet they do. And with time, their movements will mature. But it's just this. I think it's amazing how the women are just like neck and neck with the guys now. But more and more.

Kris Hampton  56:55

Yep, their growth is definitely bigger than the men's right now. They're growing at an exponential rate.

Justen Sjong  57:01

And I think it's really cool to that excites me to see that gender gap shrink.

Kris Hampton  57:09

Yep. And I think it's tough, you know, for the older climbers to look at these 12 year old girls climb in 5.14,

Justen Sjong  57:18

Do you think it's harder for them?

Kris Hampton  57:20

I think it is.

Justen Sjong  57:21

 Interesting. 

Kris Hampton  57:21

I think it's tough for people to accept it. You know, I've I've gotten much better at accepting it, because I see it on the regular now. But I think it's tough for people. 

Justen Sjong  57:32

Yeah, I guess years ago, there was a lot of conversation about but they got smaller hands and

Kris Hampton  57:36

Right, yeah and they're so light, they can only do that because they weigh 65 pounds. Yeah, things like that. And then, you know, you look at somebody like Ashima. And she's just a good rock climber. It doesn't matter how small her hands are, how light she is. She's a good climber. She moves like a brilliant rock climber. Yeah. So you take those things into into account. And you know, we've all got a lot to learn from them. 

Justen Sjong  58:01

Yeah. They just need to pace themselves.

Kris Hampton  58:05

Yeah. 

Justen Sjong  58:06

That youthful energy wears out.

Kris Hampton  58:08

 Yeah, but you know, that's something I'm I'm getting from the kids these days too is this excitement.

Justen Sjong  58:13

 Oh, yeah, I feed on it.

Kris Hampton  58:13

I feel this excitement about climbing again, you know, I think it's super exciting to watch.

Justen Sjong  58:16

 I totally feed on it. Like I was like, today, Adam, I was telling him, Yeah, I'm just, he knows I'm crusty and grouchy, and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, but I like to offset it with climbing with young kids that are excited. So I just balances me out because I just be this grouchy jerk all day. And then it's like, I like climbing with those people, though. It lightens me up.

Kris Hampton  58:39

Yep.

Justen Sjong  58:39

Gives me hope. But I think it's important that this older generation pass things on.

Kris Hampton  58:47

Yeah, not get stuck in the old ways or accept that something else is coming and be gracious about it,

Justen Sjong  58:54

Or just pass on your knowledge. Like this college kid I'm climbing with this evening. And he's been we've been practicing  simul climbing and teaching that art of simul climbing. It's very effective for many reasons, but people don't learn how. 

Kris Hampton  59:11

Yeah cool. Well, I definitely appreciate you passing your knowledge on because, you know, I've got a lot to learn from you. And, you know, all these people around here, I'm sure do so. And you're open to learning from them, which I think is super cool.

Justen Sjong  59:26

Oh I love it. I love being stumped. Yeah, good questions. 

Kris Hampton  59:31

All right, man. I appreciate it. And let's do it again sometime soon.

Justen Sjong  59:34

Thanks for having me, Kris. 

Kris Hampton  59:39

Thanks to Justin for inviting me over to his house and sitting down and having this conversation with me. You know, I wanted to give you guys something different than what you've heard from Justen before and and we tackle some kind of nebulous ideas here. And you know, we've we're doing our best to give you guys actionable information and sometimes with nebulous ideas like awareness that's really tough to do something you guys need to practice. And there's that word again, practice, it's something not enough of us do but needs to become a regular part of your climbing if you hope to ever get to your limits, wherever those might be. So, once again, thanks to Justen, you can find him at climbingsensei.com. If you're interested in working with Justen, he does training programs, coaching, private coaching, so reach out to him. And once again, if you're in the So Ill area, the St. Louis, Missouri area, come and see me at the So iLL Showdown. And Nate and I will be there the following week, 27th, 28th, 29th, doing workshops. We will also be be there on the 30th for a live podcast. So we would love to have you guys in and love to talk to you. Please come over if you're in the area and you're interested in private sessions. We'll be there all week. So hit me up and we can schedule a time to have private sessions with either Nate or myself. And like I said before, if you haven't done it, go give us a rating go give us a review. I'm looking to hit 100 here in 2017. So take some time go do that we would appreciate it. That's huge. And as always share us on your social medias. You can find us on the Facebook's the Pinterest and the Instagrams. You will not find us on the Twitter because we don't tweet we scream like eagles.