Episode 9: Long Distance Projecting with Jon Cardwell

In this episode I sit down with professional climber, routesetter, and youth coach, Jon Cardwell.  We discuss the emotional and physical toll that it takes to have a project a long way from home.  In Jon's case, that project was the famed Chris Sharma testpiece "Biographie" (5.15a), which happened to be over 5,000 miles from his home in Boulder, Colorado, and took him a total of 9 years and hundreds of attempts.  That's some serious dedication.  

We break down each years' attempts, as well as how it felt to walk away having failed, again and again.  We take a close look at how Jon dealt with those failures, and how he focused in on the small successes to keep him coming back to Ceuse year after year.  We look at how he structured his training for the final push.  And finally, we really delve into those last few days, and what it took to get it done.  

It's true, this is 15a, a grade most of us will never even dream of.  Regardless, we can all learn a lesson in dedication and perspective here.  Jon has some great insights, and his mindfullness of the process can easily be applied to your 11a, 12a, or 13a projects at your home crag, across the country, or overseas.  

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:31

What's up everybody, I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to episode nine of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Before we get started here, I just wanted to go over a couple of things that I need to put out there into the interwebs sphere. Number one, if you're brand new to the Power Company Podcast, because our listenership is growing. What we do here is we talk to climbers, climber climbing trainers, climbing coaches and, and I like to dig into a topic that I deem them to be experienced or an expert in. And because I want to learn from them, so you guys get to learn from them, too. So if you're just joining us, go back, listen to episodes one through eight, you're in for some treats there. And I've got a bunch of great interviews coming up. I've got a bunch already recorded, and I'm recording some in Salt Lake next week or this week, actually. So stay tuned. Also, Nate and I are just about to hit the road for our boulder better workshops. A couple of those dates have had to be canceled for various reasons that we won't go into. But so we'll be starting the tour at Climb So Ill in St. Louis, from August 15 to 17th. We'll also be at Boulders Gym in Wisconsin from August 22 to the 24th. Then we're in North Carolina at the Triangle Rock Club, though that date is completely sold out. If you happen to be in town, though, hit us up and maybe we could chat. And then we'll be at RockQuest in Cincinnati on August 30, and 31st. So if you're in those cities look out for us. Also, we've got some big new exciting news here. We've taken our most popular three Ebooks, our Ebook training plans, and the most popular three are Boulder Better, Boulder Strong, and Climb 5.12. And we're putting those to the app making some changes along the way. So they're new and improved. We're adding some great new exercises and just kind of streamlining the whole training plan. And we're adding those to the app because it's a little easier for people if they can have some constant contact with a coach, if they can, if they don't have to read it off of a PDF. I think some people prefer that. So basically, those are going into the app and you can buy those and and have a coach who's helping you out. And Boulder Better is ready right now. Boulder Better is meant for the V3 to V5 boulderer who wants to push through to that next level. And you'll get structured workouts and videos of the exercises you'll be doing, you'll be able to log your training into the app, and then your coach will see your workouts every day, Boulder Strong, will be ready this week, probably by the time you're hear this Boulder Strong is going to be up on the site, and Climb 5.12 is coming in the next week or two. And you can find those at the website if you go to powercompanyclimbing.com, click on the train with us link and choose mobile app training. And you'll see those options down there. So if you want to check that out, we're taking the first 20 people, it's kind of we're figuring it out as well. So we're gonna take the first 20 people see how it goes. And then we'll release it into the wide wide world. So if you're interested, go check that out at powercompanyclimbing.com. Also a big welcome to Blake Cash a friend of mine who's been helping out kind of since the beginning of this thing. He's been involved in the app and working on the website and and he's been a client so so he knows the ins and outs of the system pretty well. And he's going to be helping to coach some of the people on these new Ebook to App plans. So you you know you may get Blake, you may get me, you may get Nate. Kind of depends on who's available at the time but either way, you know Blake will be able to send questions to me if he can't answer them and, and he does a great job and he's he's knowledgeable and really loves this shit. So yeah, sign up, and welcome to Blake. All right, let's get on with this thing. I'm taking up too much time already. I've got a great conversation today with pro,fessional climber route setter, coach Jon Cardwell. Jon's originally from New Mexico now lives in Boulder the epicenter of climbing in the world as you all know it. And you've definitely seen Jon, he's one of the most fun climbers to watch climb, super powerful style. He's climbed V15. And 15a one of the few Americans to do both of those things that 15a being Realization or Biography. Depending on how you know it, Chris Sharma test piece in Ceuse, France that was, you know, the world's first confirmed 15a. And I talked to Jon about the challenges and you know, the emotional and physical toll that it takes on you of having a long distance long term project. And from first attempt to send. He took about nine years and hundreds of attempts to do Biography. And that's, that's 5200 miles from his house. So it wasn't an easy undertaking. And just just for perspective here, just in case you're geographically challenged, like I am, you know, it took me two and a half hours to get to Red River Gorge for my projects, when I lived in Cincinnati, and that's only 150 miles away. And I thought that was challenging. We're talking 5200 miles and overseas here, so much bigger undertaking. So yeah, with that, I'll just let Jon, take it away. Here, he's got some great insights. And he really pays attention to the process, which I really appreciate. Quick note, with Jon and I do talk about a finger injury in here that and climbing through that finger injury. And I just want you guys to understand that we're not doctors, I can't condone climbing through a finger injury. What I do condone is being very mindful of your own body, understanding whether you're injured, or whether you're just getting stressed. And that takes a lot of experience. So I'm not saying you should climb through injuries all the time. That's all I'm saying. I've been dealing with this myself recently on a route Atomic Stetson here in Lander and my ring finger has taken a beating. But I've eased off a little bit and I know when to stop. So while it's not injured, it's definitely not 100%. But I keep climbing because I'm mindful of it. So Alright, on to Jon.

Jon Cardwell  07:30

And I think like one will never find their limits or what they can achieve if they don't put themselves out there on a project like this.

Kris Hampton  08:01

 Realization, what do you call it?

Jon Cardwell  08:03

I guess the how I first associated with a climb is Realization because that's when I first learned about that route. 

Kris Hampton  08:10

Yep. 

Jon Cardwell  08:11

First started climbing. But as I started traveling to France, and actually saw it in person, I realized that it was called Biography, or Biographie. And it's written at the base of the crag.  

Kris Hampton  08:22

Oh cool.

Jon Cardwell  08:23

 Ever since that first trip, it was in 2007. Actually, I just I knew it as Biographie.

Kris Hampton  08:30

I feel like I've heard Chris referred to it that way, too.

Jon Cardwell  08:32

 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think when he was first trying to about 15, almost 20 years ago now, I think, since his first attempts on the route, and it was known as Biographie then yeah. But you know, with our kind of American style of developing routes, it's not always that the route developer actually names the routes, the right person who climbs it first. 

Kris Hampton  08:56

Yep.

Jon Cardwell  08:56

 So it was, you know, there was no hard feelings or no tension anywhere throughout the process of the name. I think it just kind of happened that he called the Realization in part with the film and the story and stuff that went along with that, and then realized that it was actually called Biographie. Just French ethic style.

Kris Hampton  09:14

I think I read somewhere that it was when you first started climbing that Chris did it.

Jon Cardwell  09:19

Yeah, it was on the...

Kris Hampton  09:20

 That must have been a big, big moment.

Jon Cardwell  09:22

Yeah, it's kind of funny. So I'm out here in Lander doing the speaker thing. And I'm talking about mentorship a little bit. And it's funny that, you know, when I started climbing the year I started climbing, the first images of climbing that I saw in a magazine or in a video where mostly of Chris, and it was really when he was starting to pick up momentum, and he had done that route. So that was really like...

Kris Hampton  09:46

just making sure you had your beer.

Jon Cardwell  09:47

Yeah, I got it here. So it's really when he kind of started that journey sort of influenced me in a big way as you could imagine. It was 12 years old. And so yeah, that's that's what climbing is. That's what the top of the sport is, you know.

Kris Hampton  10:00

 A cool moment to latch on to right away.

Jon Cardwell  10:02

Yeah, exactly. It was just like I gained momentum. And I'm sure everyone has their stories of like their first inspiration when they started climbing, like maybe it was Lynn Hill or maybe Tommy Caldwell or Chris Sharma or some European climber, but

Kris Hampton  10:15

yeah, for sure. For me it was Todd Skinner and Paul Piano.

Jon Cardwell  10:18

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  10:20

That's really cool. So you started trying it in? You tried it once.

Jon Cardwell  10:24

 I tried it...

Kris Hampton  10:25

 and came back years later

Jon Cardwell  10:26

 very, very briefly. So I went there. I was on a trip with Ethan Pringle. And it was the year that he did it. And the season Actually,

Kris Hampton  10:33

 Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  10:33

 And I just it was my first day. And so use ever first day climbing in France. And I warmed up on a climb. And I was like, I need a try Realization.

Kris Hampton  10:43

 Yeah. how can you not. 

Jon Cardwell  10:43

So I went on it and I kind of got shut down. I was pretty young. And but I just wanted to see it, you know, I had to, and thankfully, at the time, I was, you know, at the level where I could do most of the moves and kind of climb up and then I soon realized that, okay, I'm here. It's fresh. Like, let me just experience experience Ceuse climb a lot of different routes.

Kris Hampton  11:03

 Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  11:04

 So that was my first time climbing on it, I guess. And then you came back two years later. And yeah, a couple years. concerted effort. Yeah, exactly a couple years later, in 2009, was my first string of actual attempts where I was tying in to try to climb the route. So I spent about, I think, five weeks trying to that.

Kris Hampton  11:22

Cool. Well, the reason I wanted to talk to you about it is because, you know, I've got a lot of clients who, you know, they might try a route five or six times send it, it may have been maybe the hardest thing they've ever done, and they never get quite over that hump of spending more than five or six tries, you know, and some people just feel like, it's pointless to try a long term project. I personally, have had several season long projects, your multi year multi season projects. But mine have always been in the Red, which was two and a half hours away from my house. Yeah. And that seemed like a challenge. Yeah. What I want to talk to you about is this multi season, multi year project overseas, you know, it's a much bigger endeavor. And just, you know, what you do in the, in the meantime, and how you deal with the emotions of it? And the, you know, it's got to be challenging? 

Jon Cardwell  11:23

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  11:23

Just to just to figure out how to schedule it all and how to, how to not go crazy when you can't be there.

Jon Cardwell  12:26

 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I'm very fortunate that I do have sponsors and companies that support me in these big travels. So it takes a little bit of the burden of the financial expense, I guess, to travel. But still, as you mentioned, it takes a lot of energy to plan it out and say like, Alright, I'm going to France this year. And then, you know, if it doesn't happen, likely, I'm gonna have to wait another year, and then...

Kris Hampton  12:52

 Right.

Jon Cardwell  12:53

Plan it all out again, because so use is very seasonal place, it gets really hot in the middle of the summer. And in the winter, it could be covered in snow or totally, you know, wet and seeping. You have kind of late fall is decent, but the days are short. And then in the spring, you have good conditions, but and a lot of daylight, but it's rainy. So right, you'll have rain days a lot. But you you'll be rewarded with two or three days every week that are perfect. And yeah, the greatest conditions

Kris Hampton  13:24

 I think people, I think people see all the sends, you know, that's what the media loves to report on. Yeah. And that's what all the videos are about. So people see the pros go overseas and send everything that they try, you know, they don't they don't get to see the projects that are left behind the things they never get to finish. 

Jon Cardwell  13:41

Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  13:41

 I think it's cool that you had this kind of public, you know, long term project of, of Biographie. So...

Jon Cardwell  13:51

yeah, I think I mean, it was interesting. You know, the response that I got after I did the route because I realized that I was really open with my whole process on the route. Well, 

Kris Hampton  14:01

yeah.

Jon Cardwell  14:02

A lot of climbers are not so open with I think... 

Kris Hampton  14:05

it seems hidden a lot. 

Jon Cardwell  14:06

Yeah, they kind of, they just wait for the right moment when they send the route and they like to share it. And that's totally understandable. You know, but I just liked sharing the fact that I was still trying, you know, it's like, I'm not giving up, I'm gonna go back and, and try it again and again. But in hindsight, I realized that that might have added a little bit extra pressure that I didn't really see coming, you know,

Kris Hampton  14:27

Yeah, you know, I think it probably does. But my grandpa used to have this saying throw your hat over the fence, meaning if you want to climb the fence, but you're not really sure about it, throw your hat over it and you have to climb.

Jon Cardwell  14:40

Then you have to get it.

Kris Hampton  14:41

You know, and that's how I've always felt about putting my goals out there. And just letting the public know what I'm interested in trying. Yeah, just it makes me try a little harder and make sure that I stick to my goals. 

Jon Cardwell  14:54

Right. 

Kris Hampton  14:55

So you know, having that that out in the public. Do you think that influenced you to keep at it, even though it was a major undertaking just to get there? 

Jon Cardwell  15:05

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I got a lot of support. And that, you know, inspired me, I was like, Alright, if people believe in me more than I believe in me, yeah, there's a reason behind that maybe I need to keep trying this thing. Maybe I need to, you know, think of different ways to approach it and come up with a different strategy to go try it. But it was a lot of part that I got a lot of support, that helped me climb the route, really. And I also coached a youth team, and I wanted to show them that, you know, that's huge. You know, I wanted to show them that you don't have to give up you can keep trying, and hard work will pay off, you know, so I wanted not just to prove it to myself, but to a lot of other people and show them like, Okay, look, you can really put yourself, you could dedicate yourself to one goal, and you just got to keep working at it sometimes.

Kris Hampton  15:52

Yeah. And I want to come back to that. No, not maybe not believing in yourself the whole time. I definitely want to come back to that. But let's kind of dig into how long it was. And you know what it entailed. Just so people who aren't familiar with the story know what was going on? So we talked about you tried it one time? Several years later, you came back, gave it some concerted effort.

Jon Cardwell  16:15

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  16:17

And that was the seas... That wasn't the season that you sent, that wasn't this year.

Jon Cardwell  16:20

No that so I, I first tried in 2007. And that was that one try. And then the real string of effort, the first string of efforts was in 2009. So two years later, I went there with some buddies, Dave Graham and Isaac Caldera. Seth Gile's, we're kind of doing a film project for a company that Dave started 

Kris Hampton  16:40

The Island?

Jon Cardwell  16:41

The Island. Yeah, cool. So the goal was the film project to like document our experience in France. But we went to Ceuse because Dave knew that I really wanted to try Bibliographie. And he hadn't been there in a number of years also. So he wanted to revisit the area. 

Kris Hampton  16:55

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  16:55

So I put about five weeks of effort into the route then. And it was kind of the first time that really got shut down by a climb, like I made progress, meaning that I can climb the first half of the route, which is 14c. 

Kris Hampton  17:09

Right.

Jon Cardwell  17:09

The original climb.

Kris Hampton  17:11

 Yes.To the first.

Jon Cardwell  17:12

To the first belay, right. And then I fell about 20 times at the upper Crux. So it was the first time I've ever dealt with that, really, I had projects that lasted, you know, a week or so or a few days, and, but that was the first time that I tried something that much and just couldn't do it. So it was it was stressful, and was hard. And I didn't really know how to process it at the time. Yeah. But I moved on quickly, we went to Spain, and just totally forgot about it. 

Kris Hampton  17:37

Yep.

Jon Cardwell  17:38

 And then it was about five years later, for whatever, I think it was probably because I got shut down so hard that I just kind of wrote it off for a little bit. And I was like...

Kris Hampton  17:48

We're in like, 2014 

Jon Cardwell  17:49

Yeah, 2014, I came back with my girlfriend and a couple other friends. And I tried it again for about three weeks. And unfortunately, it was really bad weather that season, there was a lot of rain. It's not really an excuse, but I it was harder than ever, it was wet almost, you know, every few days, you know. So I would make a little bit of progress. And it would be soaked. And you'd have to wait for two or three days. Again, yeah. But I did manage to make a backup to the redpoint Crux again, and stronger than it was before five years difference. So I made it quicker, up to that point and stronger. But it just wasn't enough. And I extended my ticket one week, and I still got shut down. So then I had to come back to the states and I climbed all season. And then I returned again 2015 and this time for seven weeks. So a really long time. And I made a lot of progress on the route and I actually nearly climbed it probably about 10 times, I got really close on sticking the main Crux move and falling on the next or I even had a breakthrough where I climbed a few holes past and foot popped. But this trip in 2015 wasn't really about the physical, my ability to climb the route, it was more I was holding myself back mentally, I was really struggling like to break through. And I think the main part of that was I was unable to like let it go. Like I had this project and it meant a lot to me but I didn't want to stop trying it in a weird way. You know, I wanted always to have that you know, big project but I needed to realize back then that you could just do it you can do it the next day and if you like go and like climb with a clear head and not be so stressed at the base like is this to try you know, write anything? So I struggle with that a lot. And towards the end of the trip I actually just stopped trying it kind of it got really hot and in Ceuse and

Kris Hampton  19:48

 Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  19:48

 I was falling on the first part again. And I just got discouraged really and I was like you know I need a I need a reset. I need to come back you know. So I had one really short trip editorial Up to Germany that fall. And I only had two or three days to climb. And so you so I just kind of climbed on it. And I surprised myself, I just pulled on the wall and got straight back up to my high point. Wow. But with two or three days That's encouraging. Yeah, it was encouraging for sure. But it just wasn't enough time. And it was at the end of that entire season. I was tired. And

Kris Hampton  20:22

Yeah, that's enough reason to book your next ticket right there though.

Jon Cardwell  20:25

Yeah, yeah, that was kind of the spark. It was a turning point, I realized, I could just, I could just do this thing. You know, if if I come back, and I'm in a good mindset, and you know, I'm, and then I also reflected on like, the last season, that 2015 season, like what went wrong, like, why did I feel exhausted, but in a trip what you know, and I realized that I had kind of had this linear progression when I arrived to save that trip, and I started doing pretty well. And then I started progressing, progressing, regressing until about week three, or four, where I was making my best attempts. And then shortly after that, it like, it dropped. 

Kris Hampton  21:06

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  21:07

And I think I lost my peak. So I kind of after that looked into periodized training, and I was like, I need to be peaking when I arrive in Ceuse. Like, I can't try this route for five weeks, and then magically do it. Because, 

Kris Hampton  21:21

Right.

Jon Cardwell  21:21

I realized that I was just exhausted, I was tired. And I only had a few tries to climb at my peak level. So...

Kris Hampton  21:28

You needed to hit the ground running in France.

Jon Cardwell  21:30

Yeah, exactly. So then I came back this year, and I after a big training kind of cycle and program, I kind of devised myself. But I reached out to some people and got some advice. And I arrived in top form. And it only took a couple weeks, and I was able to do the route.

Kris Hampton  21:47

Man, that's awesome.

Jon Cardwell  21:48

That was a thing. So basically, four solid years of trying. It was was my...

Kris Hampton  21:55

So let's go back. Let's go back to 2009. I think that was the year that you kind of got to the got to the same move over and over and was falling on the same move over and over. Mentally How were you dealing with that? I mean, after you know, we're all used to falling three or four times on a move.

Jon Cardwell  22:15

 Right.

Kris Hampton  22:17

 And then you then you make a breakthrough? 

Jon Cardwell  22:19

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  22:20

But how do you deal and I've done it, I fell on the same move of a route in the Red probably, I don't know, 50 60 times. Before I got through the movement was the last hard move. So I know the struggle. Yeah. But how do you deal with that? You know, fifth, sixth, seventh, all the way up to the 20th. Try what's what's going through your head at that point?

Jon Cardwell  22:42

I think the way I dealt with it was I was very fortunate to be climbing with Dave at that season in 2009. And he had done the route. 

Kris Hampton  22:50

And he's a wizard. 

Jon Cardwell  22:51

Yeah. And he's a wizard. You know, he's, you know, people that know Dave Graham, they know that he's a master of climbing. I mean, he's been climbing for probably close to 30 years now or 25 years. And he's, you know, one of the top climbers, he's experienced the wringer. And he's actually climb Realization. So he knows. And he struggled with it quite a long time, not quite as long as I did, but he had a siege with it. And as him Chris, and it was comforting to know, he was telling me like, this is kind of normal man, like, people do fall at that move 20 30 times before we do this route. Um, and except until Alex Megos came along and did it a day. Yeah. But that's kind of the next generation. 

Kris Hampton  23:33

Right. 

Jon Cardwell  23:33

That, you know,

Kris Hampton  23:35

 For sure.

Jon Cardwell  23:35

 So it's different. But even like, Guys like Adam Ondra, you know, they worked on the roof for quite a while and they would fall in this one move, you know? So, that was reassuring, like, okay, maybe I'm not screwing up. It's just the way it works on this route. And I had this blind faith that like, okay, maybe one day, I'm gonna stick the move and send the route. And which didn't happen, because I learned I stuck that move. And I fell probably 20 times on the next move, or 15 times whatever. But what kept me going was the fact that I had someone to really relate to. And I talked to Chris a little bit like during the summer trade show or something whenever I would see him he was like, Yeah, man, like, I got shut down there too. Like, that happens, you know? So...

Kris Hampton  24:16

That's good to have.

Jon Cardwell  24:17

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  24:18

Like I said, you only in the video, you see the sand? Yeah. Or you see the handful of tries.  The handful of tries.  Something like that. You don't see that it was a multi year seige many people.

Jon Cardwell  24:28

Exactly. So um, I was fortunate to have role models like that, that, you know, we're like, You got this, like, keep working at it, and it'll happen eventually. But there's still a little bit there's quite a lot of doubt, you know, cuz you're like, I'm falling on one move on one route. And I'm at this amazing climbing area in France. Couldn't I just be climbing and doing a lot of other routes and enjoying myself more? 

Kris Hampton  24:51

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  24:51

 So I struggled between that but then every day I would walk up and I would see the perfect blue streak and I was like, I there's something more to it than, you know, 5.15 or so yeah, that's exactly, you know, so I was just inspired every time I look at it and I'm like, Alright, this is my project. I'm going to try it. So that helped me keep moving I guess.

Kris Hampton  25:11

 And you said earlier that you, you know, other people believed in you more than you did. When did it was it was it during this time that you started? Or when you were on your way home from that trip where it started feeling that way?  I think  That you were believing less.

Jon Cardwell  25:28

Yeah, it was definitely in the 2015 season last year where I was so strong that season, I had a really good rifle season. Straight after

Kris Hampton  25:38

I was in Shadow Boxing and flashed Waka Flocka. Is that right? Yeah,

Jon Cardwell  25:45

Yeah. And onsighted some hard routes and... 

Kris Hampton  25:47

Yeah, you're on a tear there.

Jon Cardwell  25:48

 I was kind of on a good momentum. And I was just asking myself like, why am I climbing so well in Rifle now? After feeling so tired  just three in Ceuse weeks ago, and what happened was I was climbed in Ceuse for almost seven weeks. And then I came home and I rested almost 10 days, no climbing.

Kris Hampton  26:05

 Yep.

Jon Cardwell  26:06

 And then I climbed really lightly for a few days, and then went to Rifle. Yeah. And then boom, in within two weeks, I was climbing better  then I ever had before. And I was like, Oh, I tapered pretty much where I rested. My body caught up. And I have all this reserve. endurance, I can 14c bottom half biography 40 times in the past month, so I had endurance training. Now, something clicked in me like, Okay, I need to prepare for this route differently. Maybe that's, that was my Crux, you know. But while I was in, I guess I'm getting off subject a little bit. But why was it on that trip? I just doubted myself, I guess because? And I don't know if it was, maybe it's just like, my excuse or something? Because I get this.

Kris Hampton  26:55

Yeah. If it's, you know, if it's in your brain then that. 

Jon Cardwell  26:58

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  26:58

 That just rolls with your body does. 

Jon Cardwell  27:00

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  27:01

 It's not an excuse. It's a real thing.

Jon Cardwell  27:03

Yeah. And I guess like the, I guess when in doubt myself so hard. It was just like, when I would tie into the route that season, and I would look up and like, this could be the time to do it. And when something means that much to you, and like a climbing project. That's a lot of pressure, you know, because like...

Kris Hampton  27:19

 No doubt.

Jon Cardwell  27:19

 How is it gonna feel when I do it or something like that? Or like, I can't wait until this is over? Because I work so hard for it. You know?

Kris Hampton  27:25

 Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  27:25

 I just wanted to see that moment. But I realized that I had to be patient and I just had to let it kind of rest, you know, and that's what eventually happened. You know, I, I was patient and I was really excited to climb and say use this season. And I was emailing or writing Jonathan Siegrist a lot and he's like, wait for it. Just be patient. 

Kris Hampton  27:44

He'd just done it not too long before. 

Jon Cardwell  27:46

Yeah, he did it the year before or two years before, but he he had it fresh in his mind his experience, right? Because he kind of had, he had one season on it, but a long season. So he definitely fought with it.

Kris Hampton  27:58

He's used to sending things pretty fast.

Jon Cardwell  28:00

Yeah, he's Yeah, he's used to doing things fast. So this was, I think his first big challenge also on his big hurdle in climbing.

Kris Hampton  28:08

So you were coming off of you came back from Ceuse, and then had your Rifle season? 

Jon Cardwell  28:15

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  28:16

Oh, I thought your Rifle season was before Ceuse.

Jon Cardwell  28:19

 Well, I had a mini Rifle season before I had done Kryptonite.  This route Tomfoolery. I had like a pretty good, like, early season, and then I bouldered a little bit. And then I went to Ceuse and this was last year. So I was like, I'm strong. You know, I just did you know, the first 14 plus United States. You know, like, I'm, I have a momentum going a little bit. But Biographie is another level. And that's what I soon realized. When I got back on it. I was like, okay, you know, Kryptonite, it's hard. But this is really hard. 

Kris Hampton  28:49

Right. And then the rest of that you took once you got back into the states. It seems just from reading and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you went this season, you got shut down by weather briefly. 

Jon Cardwell  29:03

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  29:03

 Right. So you were kind of forced to rest for... 

Jon Cardwell  29:06

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  29:07

 a little longer and try some other things.

Jon Cardwell  29:09

Try some other things. That was the key. So what happened is I arrived to say use and actually, my first day, I repeated Biographie of first part. And that was kind of a breakthrough. I was like, Alright, I'm stronger now. Like, yeah, I could do this. And then the next day, or maybe we rested or something like that, and I am I climb some other routes. I didn't really focus on Biographie right away. I was like, You have six weeks relax, you know, don't just dive into it, you know, like, enjoy. So I climbed some routes that I really wanted to climb, in Ceuse before and I've regretted not trying them the season before. So I kind of approach it like do these now. Like go check it out, like explore a little bit. And then I tried Biographie a little bit I was making steady progress. So like the difference with this season was every try was a little bit better, a little bit better, a little bit better. And then eventually...

Kris Hampton  30:01

And this several years in still making progress,?

Jon Cardwell  30:03

Yeah, still making,

Kris Hampton  30:04

Which is fun to see.

Jon Cardwell  30:05

Yeah. And it was coming a little easier probably because I had it. So dialed already, you know it was September. So I was trying it now in May. It wasn't that long since I last tried it. You know, I mean in September was only a couple days, but it was a try. Sure. So it was really fresh. In my mind, I was well trained. So it was coming really quick. And I think I was viewing it as like really nice linear progression. And then the rain came and so you probably my first after four or five days and we were like we can't climb and Ceuse, you know it's raining three, four days in a row. So we went to Nice, and we climbed around Nice a little bit there's some overhanging crags that stay dry. And then I discovered um, well i didn't discover but I learned this new area or not a new area but a classic area called St. Leger. It's in the south of France to it's really steep Rodellar style, like collenette climbing  total opposite of Ceuse. 

Kris Hampton  31:01

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  31:02

 Anyone knows Ceuse is like vertical face pocket climbing.  Right, Little tiny pockets.  Yeah. So I went there. And I did a lot of onsight climbing, and I did tons of volume. And I was just not even worrying about Biographie. I was like, it's there. I'm going back. So I did a lot of that. And then I'll do a couple days and say use and make progress and Biographie. And then we do another day in St. Leger and I would do some hard onsights and stuff like that. So I wasn't stuck in Project mode. I was just kind of like, I'll try it when I feel cool.

Kris Hampton  31:30

So even when you got back to back to the project, you were still going and doing other things.

Jon Cardwell  31:35

Yeah, I would try probably Biographie one or two days. And then I would go and try other things I totally like, separated myself from it until I had a kind of a breakthrough where I stuck the crocs again. And I'm like, Wow, I'm sticking it pretty solid. And I found the next move. And I'm like, Alright, now's your time, you need to focus and you need to zone in. Yeah. So I kind of wrote off San Leger for a little bit. I'm like, I'm gonna see this to the end now. And then I think after that moment was only two or three days after I made the little breakthrough that I sent through. So...

Kris Hampton  32:08

Cool. Yeah. And knowing that it's the time to focus in reminds me of something else that I read. And I think you touched on it really briefly earlier. There was a moment I believe during the wet season, which was 2009. Is that right? 

Jon Cardwell  32:25

In 2014 

Kris Hampton  32:26

14 was last season. Okay. So during the wet season, I think it was that you had a little mini breakthrough, where you were feeling good, your foot slipped and fell. But then on your next go you had a breakthrough. Is that right?

Jon Cardwell  32:42

Yeah. So actually, this might have been in last year. Okay, I had the biggest breakthrough I had on the route. I stuck the there's a big stab to a pinch pocket. 

Kris Hampton  32:53

Okay.

Jon Cardwell  32:53

And I stuck the next move. And then the next move after that. And this is at a point where, theoretically, if you're in control, you're you're sending you're doing the route you're done.

Kris Hampton  33:04

Right.

Jon Cardwell  33:05

 But moments before that, I was trying it with this guy, Stefano Ghisalfi. He's a Italian that ended up climbing it, and he had fallen moves past that. He liked his foot slip too. And yeah, and he fell twice on those moves. And somehow I fell too you know, it was just like, Ah, you know, like, it was frustrating and it was stressful. You know, rather than being like, excited about it. I was upset about it. 

Kris Hampton  33:31

Sure. 

Jon Cardwell  33:31

You know. So that breakthrough like halted me, I guess. And that season. Yeah. Instead of helping me.

Kris Hampton  33:40

Okay.That's interesting. Yeah, I had a similar situation. And I know you've done this route. Transworld depravity read Yeah. Where I was sending i was i was through everything I was on the headwall Yeah. And it was soaked up there and and i thought i was through the wetness i'd climb that last like like matle-ee lock off crux was soaking wet. And I climbed through that was on the head wall thinking I was out of the wet. Got to the crimps and they were soaked little puddles. Yeah, and I thought I'm gonna rest over there on those good incut crimps. Yeah, they're they're wet puddles. And, and I ended up falling going to the finish hold. Yeah. And that was my last go the season. 

Jon Cardwell  34:24

Oh, man.

Kris Hampton  34:25

 And I had I had some moments during the offseason where I was like, Am I going to get back on it? Like, in my head? I already did it. Like it's over. Yeah, I should have just done it. And I now I know I can do it. So is the chase that exciting anymore? 

Jon Cardwell  34:42

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  34:43

 But ultimately, it came back to what you just said where you'd look up at that perfect blue streak. And, you know, there was something more than just the 5.15 grade or in my case, the 5.14 grade, where I really love climbing on the route. And I really wanted to go back and do it and finish it off. 

Jon Cardwell  35:00

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  35:00

Were there ever any moments where you were like, man? I don't know if I'm going back or not.

Jon Cardwell  35:04

Yeah, I mean, I would say at the end of every of those trips, were like, I, I got close. And then it was like, Alright, time to go. Yeah, it was kind of like, am I, you know, am I really gonna come back and write and put myself through this again, but it didn't take much convincing to say like, yeah,  back, you know? Yeah, but I definitely there was a little bit of doubt, you know, but it didn't last long. I guess. Just because I knew deep down, like, even if I told myself like, maybe next year, like, go somewhere else, like, go to Australia and go climbing on Taipan wall or something. Yeah. And I was like, No, like, you know, you want to do this. So you could do this. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  35:39

 See it through.

Jon Cardwell  35:40

 See it through? Yeah, and then you can go?

Kris Hampton  35:43

Yeah, yeah, doubt. It's always gonna be there. Yeah. The Tiapan wall will be there.

Jon Cardwell  35:47

Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  35:49

Yeah. So I know, you've been with Chelsea for a while. Right? How was it? with her? Like, I know, she also had a kind of a long distance battle with Thanatopsis in Red. 

Jon Cardwell  36:00

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  36:02

 How was that battle with her? was it important to have her support? Or was it totally internal for you?

Jon Cardwell  36:09

You know, it was it was good to have her support for sure. And I think, you know, she was a huge supporter of mine. And so as my friend Matty,

Kris Hampton  36:17

 Matty Hong?

Jon Cardwell  36:18

The two biggest supports, yeah. And they both Chelsea, you know, very much so like, just knew that, like, I could do it. But she saw that I was struggling mentally, you know, to accept it. Like,  You know, cuz I guess I had this thing where I just watched this video of Ethan Pringle. Yeah. I'm good friends with Ethan. And it resonated really well with me, because he had these moments where he's like, maybe I'm not good enough to do this. Or maybe I shouldn't. I don't belong up here trying this, right. And I had moments where I was like that, too. And I would say that, um, and Chelsea was like, What are you talking about? Like, you're here? You're doing it? You're really gonna try this route? Like, right, you belong here to try it? Yeah. You know,

Kris Hampton  36:30

Yeah.  I think that's easy to forget. Yeah. And in all levels?

Jon Cardwell  37:03

Yeah. In every level.

Kris Hampton  37:04

Yeah. I mean, I have I have clients who are trying to break into 5.12. And I can see that they're ready for 5.12. And I'm like, you need to get on it. Get on try it. Don't be discouraged. Work it out, figure it out, stick with it. And they're just like, I don't know if I'm ready for 5.12. But it's cool to see, you know, Ethan's video and cool to hear this from you that, that you were feeling like maybe I don't belong here sometimes. 

Jon Cardwell  37:30

And I think that's a that's a natural human you know reaction i think.

Kris Hampton  37:35

Definately we just don't see it in the videos. 

Jon Cardwell  37:37

Yeah, we don't see that stuff for sure.

Kris Hampton  37:39

We don't all get to stand there and in France and watch you through the whole process. So... 

Jon Cardwell  37:43

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  37:44

It's pretty cool that you're putting this out there into the open and, you know, letting people know what that process is like.

Jon Cardwell  37:50

I mean, I just think it's like you're saying it. It's relatable to every, like discipline of climbing at every level, you know, we as humans, like when we're trying something new and challenging, it's scary. The thought of failure, you know, like, you don't want to accept it. And maybe it's easier to walk away and not even think about it. But at the same time, I like quotes that, you know, I don't know, a specific quote, but they say like, the biggest failure is is not actually trying, you know, like, right, if you don't actually go for it, you don't know what the...

Kris Hampton  38:23

Yeah, you have no idea what you can do. If you don't try it.

Jon Cardwell  38:26

Yeah, it's harder to grow that way.

Kris Hampton  38:28

 Definitely. 

Jon Cardwell  38:29

And that's, you know, me as being a coach with my kids. That's what I really try to teach them a little bit. And I, you know, I try to make it clear that it's not just with climbing, it's with everything, like, you really want to try and push yourself and grow as a human. You got to try things that maybe you're not totally sure you can do. 

Kris Hampton  38:45

Yeah. Oh, that's good. I'm glad to share that. Did you share any of this process with them? Like, did they know what was going on more than what the media told them?

Jon Cardwell  38:55

Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I coached them. So you know, when I would come back from the trip, they'd asked how it went. And, you know, they know I'm trying 5.15 that's what matters for them. 

Kris Hampton  39:03

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  39:04

And they're, they're young, and they're like, That's amazing. We only see 5.13s in the gym. 

Kris Hampton  39:07

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  39:09

So I would tell them...

Kris Hampton  39:10

Which is also amazing to me, because, you know, when I started climbing, there were no kids. First off, 

Jon Cardwell  39:16

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  39:18

5.13 was still a pipe dream for most climbers. 

Jon Cardwell  39:20

Sure. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  39:21

It's cool to see that progression happening and you being involved in the next level of that progression.

Jon Cardwell  39:26

Yeah, um, yeah. So I tried to, you know, fill them in a little bit, but I don't I don't know if they understand really, quite yet. Like,  Sure.  That I went for six weeks and tried one route, you know, yeah. But some of them do as they get older. Some of my older kids that start trying projects and they're working 5.13 and stuff in Rifle, they understand they get it, you know,

Kris Hampton  39:48

Yeah. And they'll they'll bump up against that their whole climbing career, you know, and they'll, they'll have the same role model that you did in Sharma and Dave Graham and all those guys who have battled with it. They'll get to know what you did. And yeah, they're gonna go through the same thing. They all are. So...

Jon Cardwell  40:05

Yeah, I mean, I think it's harder for me to see, but maybe, because I've heard other people tell me like the kids really like look up to you and they think this is cool and all that. Yeah, you don't see it directly sometimes, you know, sure. You're just coaching them. You're like, Alright, we have this on the plan for today. This is what we're doing. And it's really like, yep, work. You know, we're, they're working hard, you know, so..

Kris Hampton  40:26

Yeah. And and they're working hard because of you. Yeah. I mean, that's a big part of it. You know, they're driving themselves, but just like you had the role model. They do, too. So sure. I think that's pretty cool. Question about Alex Megos. did. Did he do it while you were in the process? He did. Right?

Jon Cardwell  40:45

 He did. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  40:46

And how did that affect you? And I'm asking, because when I was working on Transworld, and I was getting close. Alex Megos was in the Red during his like tear, mega U.S. sending spree. 

Jon Cardwell  40:59

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  40:59

And I had never heard of him at the time. You know, he was right in the beginning of it. 

Jon Cardwell  41:04

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  41:05

 He just said, you know, can do you mind if I try? And I'm like, sure, you know. 

Jon Cardwell  41:10

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  41:10

And I'm thinking I'm gonna be rest in a while. It doesn't matter right now. But it had he didn't need a while it took them all of about seven minutes to onsight, and it looked like a warm up. 

Jon Cardwell  41:21

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  41:21

 And I was like, Who the fuck is this kid? Like? He's super nice. He's super. He just looks like this fresh little kid. And I had no idea who he was. and it blew me away.

Jon Cardwell  41:32

Yeah, I had this similar experience with him in the Red. I think that season. 

Kris Hampton  41:36

I think it was.

Jon Cardwell  41:36

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  41:37

You might have been there that day. 

Jon Cardwell  41:38

Maybe? Yeah,

Kris Hampton  41:39

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  41:39

Yeah. I definitely remember him doing those routes and him doing the routes at Bob Marley crag. 

Kris Hampton  41:45

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  41:46

 At least at the time he did Southern Smoke and I think 50 Words for Pump. 

Kris Hampton  41:50

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  41:50

 And he was just cruising them. I was like, wow, this kid. I'm haven't heard of this kid before.

Kris Hampton  41:55

Yeah, so you already knew a little bit where he stood when he did?

Jon Cardwell  41:59

Yeah, yeah. And I knew that. I mean, he had done Action Direct in about two hours. Yeah, like that season or something. So did he let you know it was I saw him climbing the first day. And he had done this repeated this route called Lulu and Demille. In Berlin sector  and thoseof Ceuse that know the route, it's um, it's a really hard 120 foot long, pretty much vertical slab 9a so super hard Ceuse. It could be harder than Biographie in a lot of respects just because of the stock style. 

Kris Hampton  42:31

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  42:31

Yeah. And it took him four or five tries. And I was like, wow, like, he just hiked Zulu, or Lulu, you know, it's pretty impressive, you know? And then he was like, "Well, I'm resting today. And then tomorrow, I'll go to a Biographie sector and maybe try Three Degrees or something like that." He didn't say he was gonna try Biographie.

Kris Hampton  42:48

 Right. 

Jon Cardwell  42:49

And then when I heard the news, I was like, Oh, he got on Biographie. Everyone was wondering, like, did Alex try Biographie that looks right. And then they were like, Yeah, he did it today. He just climbed up, he tried it three or four times and work the moves and made a good try, and then made another good try. And he sent the route. And my initial reaction was like, "Are you serious? Like, it wasn't me it has he tried it before?" And, you know, and I remember, he was like, This is my first day in Ceuse, you know, so..

Kris Hampton  43:19

Right. 

Jon Cardwell  43:20

He hasn't tried it before that that's amazing. You know, and I was more inspired than anything, but also a little shocked and kind of like, wow, here I am, like, 50 tries deep, you know,

Kris Hampton  43:31

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  43:31

 This logic, but at the same time, I had a lot of respect for and, and the thought that he had done it so quickly, was maybe encouraging to me to think like, I could do this, you know, like, if he just did it. Like, I could do this too, you know? 

Kris Hampton  43:44

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  43:44

But it did take another 40 tries or something after that. 

Kris Hampton  43:48

Yeah. How many tries do you think it took all total? Have you tried to add it up?

Jon Cardwell  43:52

I haven't tried. Um, I only counted that first season. Like my very, very first season where I think I did Biographie 18 times.

Kris Hampton  44:01

You do the 14c version? 18 times.

Jon Cardwell  44:03

18 times in 2009. 2014 I probably did it 10 times. Last year, I probably did it 35 or 40 times. And this year, I maybe did it 10 times before.

Kris Hampton  44:16

Wow.

Jon Cardwell  44:16

 So I would say upwards around 80 or more tries. Yeah, or red points to write, you know, and not even counting the tries that I've worked Biographie on it.

Kris Hampton  44:27

 Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  44:27

 But I think when I first tried biography, the first half, it didn't take me very long. Maybe two or three days. 

Kris Hampton  44:35

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  44:36

 10 tries or so maybe less. So once I had done that first half, I really I maybe fell once or twice on the bottom part. Until I did it again. You know, you and I never really fell in the bottom. Yeah, it was this mental thing like oh, it's a checkpoint you could just get there. Yeah,

Kris Hampton  44:53

Yeah, that sounds like such a huge number. For somebody who's used to sending You know, in four or five tries, and, and I try to let all of my clients know, and all the people that I talked to know that if you're not pushing 20 plus attempts, then then you have no idea where your limits are really. Yeah, you know, because you still have to get really intimate with the route and you're not intimate with it in four or five tries, no, just doesn't happen. And, you know, my longest term project was route in the red called swing line 13d, and I fell on the same move, you know, 50 60 times, the last hard move of the route. And, and at the time, when I thought, Man, I've tried this route, you know, 70 times or something that sounds insane to me. But then I read an article about Adam Ondra, on La Dura Dura. And he estimated that even though he had done it in a short period of time, he had probably tried 70 times over that period. 

Jon Cardwell  46:00

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  46:01

 You know, and, and that really put it into perspective for me that, you know, we see these pros sand, like I talked about before in the media, but, but they might have tried it 70 times in the, you know, five weeks leading up to it. Yeah, and hearing that you spent season after season, you know, booking flights to France, leaving without it in your pocket, you know, and trying 80 plus redpoint attempts, it's pretty fucking inspiring.

Jon Cardwell  46:33

And cool. I'm, you know, and that's I'm psyched that inspires people. And I always say like, there's two ways to view progressing and climbing. I mean, there's more. But I think of it really simply, like, you can work your way up to a level and try something to do it quickly. Or you can work through something, give a lot of tries. And I think the first way to do it, where you work your way up, and then you do something quickly.

Kris Hampton  47:00

Almost like the the old Alex Megos model.

Jon Cardwell  47:02

 Kind of like Alex Megos. Yeah, like he his trainers prevented him from trying harder routes, because we don't want you to project yet. We want you to do things in a few tries. And then when you're ready, you could try something harder. That's one way to view it, but only to a certain point, because I think at a certain point, no matter what level, you're gonna have to spend more than a few tries. And Alex will reach that point at some, at some time that's on some route, where he's gonna have to try it more than two or three days. So your going to have to invest a lot of time. 

Kris Hampton  47:32

Spend seasons on it. 

Jon Cardwell  47:33

Yeah, and that might happen to be the hardest route in the world, because of his talent. 

Kris Hampton  47:38

Right? 

Jon Cardwell  47:38

Same with Adam ondra. He did routes really fast when he was younger, because he he employed that tactic also, but then he I think he realized at some point, if I want to push the standard to 9b+, which he's done, that's gonna take a lot more tries. And that's like you were saying, really, where you find your limits, and you push past them, you know, you have to invest the time you have to put the effort in.

Kris Hampton  48:01

Yeah, and I think that applies to on the road climbing too. You know, you were overseas doing it. And, you know, I've had a long term project here in Wyoming, even when I lived in Cincinnati and and I think it's important to go on the road, doing different styles and still trying to push your limits. We all like to, you know, hear it all the time. Oh, when I go on the road, I just try and onsight everything, right. And I think that's a great tactic. 

Jon Cardwell  48:28

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  48:29

For part of your trip or for some of your trips. But really pushing yourself on every style, and every different rock type I think is really important.

Jon Cardwell  48:39

Yeah. I mean, I agree. Totally. And I think there's, there's a few ways to view trips. And you know, there's the volume trip where

Kris Hampton  48:46

 Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  48:46

 Okay, let's not climb our limit. Let's just climb a bunch of routes, you know.

Kris Hampton  48:49

Definitely.

Jon Cardwell  48:50

And then there's onsight trips, like you were mentioning, where I've done this before, I just want to onsight hard routes, I want to approach that part of my climbing.

Kris Hampton  48:58

Try it one time if you don't do it move on.

Jon Cardwell  48:59

 And then there's the mini project trips, where you're like, I want to do something slightly below my limit, but I want to do it quickly. You know, I'm gonna see how fast I can do this. And then there's the project trips, like the Biographie, you know, um, and I think if you can combine them, you could, you know, do half the trip, like, I'm going to onsight, kind of what I did this year.

Kris Hampton  49:19

This last season.

Jon Cardwell  49:20

Yes, last season I, I picked, you know, middle range 14, some 5.13 and stuff or onsight and redpoint in in a day or something like that. And that that really helped my progress with biography because I think it built a lot of momentum. Yeah. And I did well on the redpoint process the entire time, only a really short amount of time that I delve in, probably less than a week, and that's when I did the but before then it was like this mix of like, many projects may have jumped on Biographie every other day kind of thing and a lot of onsight climbing. 

Kris Hampton  49:54

Yep, question for you. I love to have mini projects that kind of lead into my bigger project. And I also like the idea of having mini projects that are sort of your anti-style. 

Jon Cardwell  50:08

Yeah. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  50:09

Do you employ that at all? Did you do any of that in Ceuse this time when you were climbing on Biographie?

Jon Cardwell  50:15

I'm kind of I would say that what I did and the with the season was really unique because Ceuse like I was saying before, it's really kind of technical face climbing pockets. It's really fingery. 

Kris Hampton  50:30

Yep.

Jon Cardwell  50:31

 Forearm endurance, it's a different style, you really have to stand your feet and I was like,  And then I went to the steep caves where I was like, because I'm kind of lacking the power. I feel like I need to use my big muscles. I'm not using them on Biographie really, I'm just kind of sprinting up there. So I would go to St. Leger and just like waste myself on the steep cave power climbing. I would leave the day like totally aching and tired, you know, all over like my core and my back and stuff.

Kris Hampton  50:35

 Then you went to the collenettes.  Which seems like it's your go to style. 

Jon Cardwell  51:01

I would say...

Kris Hampton  51:02

You appear to be a more powerful climber. 

Jon Cardwell  51:04

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  51:05

So...

Jon Cardwell  51:05

I would say it's what comes more naturally to me. But those who know me pretty well know that I actually really like technical face kind of almost slab limbing, like the stuff here in Wild Iris checked out. That's my style. I really like that. 

Kris Hampton  51:20

Yeah.

Jon Cardwell  51:20

Um, or in Ceuse is kind of my style. But it took a long time to get there. I would say when I first started climbing, my roots were in like Hueco Tanks and all this stuff. So I learned how to like climb in roofs and really powerful. That's just how I grew up.

Kris Hampton  51:35

 Right.

Jon Cardwell  51:35

 And then I realized later on that I really enjoy face climbing or small hold climbing and with tiny feet and stuff like that. 

Kris Hampton  51:43

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  51:44

So I would gravitate towards a route like that more than a steep route. But I do realize that like the steep power routes definitely complement that climbing in the sense that, like you're working your big muscles, and you're getting that power up, and it helps a lot and even face climbs.

Kris Hampton  51:59

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So talk to me about the training just because I know people are gonna, yeah, Want to know, like that. That last push, you know, before you went this 2016 season? What did it look like? What were you? Not? Not necessarily like, what workouts were you doing or anything like that? But what went through your head leading into that training season? Like, what what did you feel like you needed to do to get ready?

Jon Cardwell  52:27

 Um, well, first and foremost, I knew that I had to arrive and say, yes, this time I'm out on my peak, I need to be as strong as I am going to be in my entire trip that first week, pretty much. So I kind of constructed my training schedule with a friend of mine, Ryan S. who he works at Movement he's a setter and stuff, but he's a really strong climber as well. And he's super psyched on training. So we did a lot of research. I read a bunch of random books and stuff. And then I talked to some climbing coaches, Justin Sjong, he's just a friend of mine. So I kind of like showed him some stuff. He was like, yeah, this looks kind of cool. You know, like, keep with it, you know, he didn't really offer me, like, you need to do these workouts or anything. I just wanted to see what he thought, Yeah, um, and then Ryan and I did a lot of research. And we combined our knowledge and we just made our own training program, I guess. But it follows the same structure is what a lot of is what a lot of people have periodized training program, what a lot of people are doing now, the only difference that I did, was in between, I had three cycles, and it started with strength. And then it went into power training. And then it went into endurance or power, endurance, something like that. So I built up a really strong finger base, I guess, in strength. And then I had a period in between strength and power where it was just climbing. You know, I just wanted to get outside mostly in climb in, I guess. Justin called it like a performance. He was like go out and see how strong you're feeling like and then reassess. And then I went into power, which was like campusing and a lot of bouldering 

Kris Hampton  54:06

And was your strength more hangboarding and short boulder problems, or?

Jon Cardwell  54:12

It was a lot of hangboarding. Endurance more or less once a week. Just to maintain.

Kris Hampton  54:17

Sure.

Jon Cardwell  54:18

 Not to lose it. A little bit of bouldering short bouldering sessions and a lot of fingerboard and focusing on pockets because pockets I would say if anything are my main weakness. Yeah, I'm not super strong on pockets. I'm really good on like little crimps, but pockets open hand pockets, which is all Ceuse.

Kris Hampton  54:38

 Right.

Jon Cardwell  54:38

 You know, it's hard for me so I was like, I need to build a base of this before I go to Ceuse. 

Kris Hampton  54:42

And I think it's important to note here that it's hard for you even though you were doing even though you've done the 14c you know, Biographie the original version. You know what this point 50 60 times.

Jon Cardwell  54:57

Probably 50 times Yeah.

Kris Hampton  54:59

You still knew that little pockets are hard for you. Yeah. And I think that's important to know. So that you knew you could get better at them.

Jon Cardwell  55:05

Yeah, I knew I could get better at them. Because the one thing that inspired me, or like, gave me that thought was like, I never trained on hangboard before like,

Kris Hampton  55:16

Right.

Jon Cardwell  55:16

 I never hung on pockets for more than one session, you know what I mean? Like, I've done it every once in a while, like hanging around, and, oh, that was boring. Like, I'm not gonna do that again. But I decided, like, I'm gonna do three weeks of this, and then like, really get better at pockets, you know? And then specifically, like, my first two fingers, you know, like, my middle finger. 

Kris Hampton  55:36

First team pockets.

Jon Cardwell  55:37

Yeah, like, it's just not really my thing, you know? So I started hanging that, and I, and I was surprised. Just on the hangboard. I saw results fairly quickly. And I was like, I could do pocket moves. But I couldn't do before. And in my mind, I thought there's no way that that couldn't help on Biographie. 

Kris Hampton  55:56

Sure.

Jon Cardwell  55:57

You know.

Kris Hampton  55:57

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then you moved on to campussing.

Jon Cardwell  56:01

Yeah, campusing, which is like you were mentioning, probably my natural strength. So I just, I wanted to get to a point where I was normal, you know, like, my normal strong self, you know, so I got to campusing, I made some little breakthroughs on the campus board for myself.

Kris Hampton  56:19

Well, the problem that's huge, because that's your that's your, you know, that's your strong suit. That's your wheelhouse. 

Jon Cardwell  56:24

Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  56:25

 Like little gains there. That's huge. 

Jon Cardwell  56:27

Yeah, exactly. I knew that. Like, okay, something's clicking here. I'm doing it well. Um, and then I had kind of a hiccup in after the power I went to during my performance week, I guess I was calling them. I went to the VRG. And I was like, I'm giving myself four days to go cliimb Necessary Evil, which I had already tried before, but I was like, I'm gonna go try. It's really late in the season, but I don't care. I'm just gonna deal with it. You know. And I wanted to do that mostly for a mental challenge to see how I handled the pressure.

Kris Hampton  56:59

 Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  56:59

Um, so I ended up I didn't end up doing it. It was really hot as one can imagine in April. Yeah, I'm not really the season, people go to VRG to climb that route. 

Kris Hampton  57:09

And you we're right in the middle of training. 

Jon Cardwell  57:11

And that was in the middle of train. So maybe a little tired, but also like feeling good feeling. My fingers are strong. My power was good. I didn't have a lot of endurance yet. So I was working my way on the route. And actually the first day on the route, I slipped off one of the bottom boulder problems. One of the I think it's a fourth hold that's a really small like a potatochip size crimp. 

Kris Hampton  57:32

Yeah, I remember the Mike Doyle video.

Jon Cardwell  57:34

Yeah, you're grabbing that little crimp. It's that right hand thing and I slipped off and my skin was like tingling, like that nasty, like burning feeling, you know?  And I was like, oh, man, that sucks. You know, lower me. And then I waited for like half an hour and then I realized like, my pulley was really in pain. It was hurting pretty bad. And I was like, This isn't good. So I kind of like was pacing the cliff like grabbing random little holds. Yeah, yeah, I kinda was like, you know, I didn't blow my pulley. But I definitely upset it. It was not feeling good. So I taped up. Just out of, you know, precaution and freaking out a little bit. You know, I was like yape must help. You know, I'm gonna put a lot of tape. 

Kris Hampton  57:44

Yeah.  Do what you can. 

Jon Cardwell  58:16

Yeah, yeah, at that point, and I'm here, I'm gonna keep trying, you know, so I like kind of re warmed up a little bit and then I made a try on the route and I got got really far on it almost did it. So I was like, Alright, maybe I don't I didn't blow my pulley. Like I'm still climbing on Necessary Evil, like the notorious face you climb, you know? 

Kris Hampton  58:34

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  58:35

So I kept doing that for another three days, kind of in the heat, like just kind of struggling, like really forcing it in a weird way, you know, and like digging deep, and ended up not doing it. And then I went to Red Rock Rendezvous to coach some clinics and stuff like that. And that's when I the pain and my finger really kind of settled in and I was like, I might have messed up my finger. And I'm going to France in four weeks and I still have this endurance phase of training that I need to do. But I know now that I need a rest, like there's no way I could just jump back, go back to Boulder and jump straight into endurance training, which was climbing like five days a week like doing hundreds of moves. So that was the hiccup really, but I kind of progressed a little bit and the finger got a little better. And then I did about two and a half weeks of training instead of four weeks of training, of a lot of endurance with the finger taped or I actually ended up not taping it most of the time. I just kind of like listen to it, I guess a lot continued with my training through the pain. It was hurting pretty bad. I wasn't really closing crimps that much but I realized that I could open handholds pretty well, and that was kind of reassuring because I knew that it was mostly open hand crimps.

Kris Hampton  59:50

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  59:50

Or pockets. And the only thing that worried me is like the very first move you do on Biography is to a really, really small, three finger incut crimp. You have to do pretty much a V11 boulder problem right off the ground and you have to crimp this right hand so hard. And that was the finger that was hurting me. So that was always in the back of my head during training, like am I gonna pull on this route? My first try and pop my pulley because it's already sore, you know, so that was a hiccup but I maintained my train my endurance training and then just before I left there, rested for about four or five days, and then went straight into trying the route after that are in onto my trip, you know, I'm finger pretty much hurt my entire trip. There. And then now it's okay. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:36

You know, and as a coach myself, I, I can't necessarily condone climbing on, you know, painful fingers. But I also have a lot of conversations with people who, the minute they feel any sort of something wrong, they freak out. 

Jon Cardwell  1:01:00

Right.

Kris Hampton  1:01:00

You know, and, and your finger has no damage now, right? Like, 

Jon Cardwell  1:01:06

Yeah, yeah, I climbed through it. And I have to point out like, you're absolutely right. I mean, if you hurt your finger, and you know you did on a climb, like I did, like, the smartest thing is the rest and like, just give it a break. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:20

Right.

Jon Cardwell  1:01:20

 I was already invested with my ticket and already eight weeks of training.

Kris Hampton  1:01:25

And we love this shit.

Jon Cardwell  1:01:27

 I was like I'm gonna go for it.

Kris Hampton  1:01:28

It's what we do. So telling a rock climber to rest is just insanity anyway, they're not going to do it. 

Jon Cardwell  1:01:35

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:36

You know, you might as well give them something to do. That's just lower impact. absolutely different using their hands in a different way.

Jon Cardwell  1:01:43

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:01:45

Yeah, like I said, I can't condone it, but but I hear a lot of people say that they're freaking out after little tweaks. And I think it's probably not a bad thing to climb through some of those tweaks if you're really sensitive to your own body and your own mechanics and you understand what's going on in your body like you obviously do.

Jon Cardwell  1:02:09

Yeah, I mean, I think,

Kris Hampton  1:02:10

 I don't know, many pro climbers who don't have fingers that hurt.

Jon Cardwell  1:02:13

Yeah, it's true. And, you know, maybe after climbing for 15 years, I know, there's people that have climbed way longer than I have. But I, I kind of know, like, there's little ins and outs, you know, little tweaks here and there. And I know when to kind of worry about a lot and when to like, Alright, that's just a little something like, take it easy, at least you know.

Kris Hampton  1:02:32

Yep.

Jon Cardwell  1:02:32

 And I know when to totally stop. And there's definitely times when, after the VRG when I came back, and I was doing training sessions, and I would end early because I was like, I can't, I can't keep pushing. If I keep going further. Like, I'm actually going to hurt myself to the point where I can't keep climbing. 

Kris Hampton  1:02:47

Yep.

Jon Cardwell  1:02:48

 You know, and there was no doubt that I had like, some minor pulley tear or something in there. But it wasn't a full rupture. And I I've had full ruptures before. So I definitely knew how that felt. And unfortunately, the only reason I knew is because it got to that point, you know.

Kris Hampton  1:03:04

Right.

Jon Cardwell  1:03:05

 So I guess that it's kind of good that I knew, but it's also like, yeah, bummer. But.

Kris Hampton  1:03:11

So what we're saying is, if you're new to the sport, this lifestyle, whatever it is, you want to call it, and you feel something hurt, take a rest. But if you if you've been doing this for a long time, and you know, it's not serious, then, you know, it's it's not a bad idea to take your chances with something different. Don't Don't pull on the same holds that hurt your finger to begin with, necessarily, but be smart about it. That's the

Jon Cardwell  1:03:38

I think at the very minimum at least consult someone for before... 

Kris Hampton  1:03:42

For Sure.

Jon Cardwell  1:03:42

Resuming climbing like sure. Listen, have you had this before, like, this is how it feels, you know.

Kris Hampton  1:03:47

Just be really mindful of what's going on in your own body. I think that's the important part. 

Jon Cardwell  1:03:51

And I guess I have to mention that 99% of the time, I would have just stopped climbing for three weeks. Yep. You know, and the only reason I did it was I was so committed already to training for this route. And I had tickets I had hotel, I had a house booked. I had my car booked the friends were meeting me, I was fully committed. So I had to somehow find a solution. And I guess in a way I I kind of broke the rules a little bit and just kind of kept training.

Kris Hampton  1:04:19

Yeah, you know, it's funny, I think, you know, when I meet the more when I talk to the more serious climbers who've really made this their lifestyle. They tend to error on the side of caution more often than the people who are just coming up through 5.11 and are super, super psyched to get better at climbing and, you know, they see this huge, you know, progression in front of them that they're going to be hitting and those people are the hardest to, to tell back. 

Jon Cardwell  1:04:52

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  1:04:53

So yeah. So I think it's like you said you you would normally take a break. 

Jon Cardwell  1:04:57

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:04:57

 You know, yeah, or at least I would have climbed Some climb some easy things or go climb cracks or whatever, you know something different. Mm hmm. take a little break from what you're doing. Yeah. But I think it's harder to get other people to stop. 

Jon Cardwell  1:05:12

Yeah, it's definitely. It's hard to get people to stop. Yeah, yeah, I'm in it. You know, I have been, you know, I have to force some of my kids to soft climbing sometimes. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:22

Yeah. 

Jon Cardwell  1:05:22

They're like, Oh, this hurts. This hurts. And they're growing kids. And I don't want them to  hurt their plates in their fingers or their shoulders. They're developing, you know?

Kris Hampton  1:05:30

Yeah. And there's so much to learn about technique.

Jon Cardwell  1:05:32

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:32

And just just learning climbing movement, that you don't have to be climbing hard. You don't have the tools to really learn to be mindful of what you're doing.

Jon Cardwell  1:05:40

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, definitely, like stretched it went for, you know, went on the whim a little bit, like stretched it quite a bit further than I should have. But in the end, it paid off. But I have to say that that might not always be the case. So sure there's an entry or there's a mate. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:59

We're not we're not doctors. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But anyways, S talk to me about those last, before we go here. talk to you about those last few, you know, five, six attempts before the Ssnd, you know, did you know it was happening? Were you, you know, and I and I hate this cliche, not that I hate it. I wanted to hate it. I wanted to be like, this whole cliche of you have to enjoy the process and let go of the results and all that I wanted to disprove that. But, but in my own climbing, that's what happens. Yeah. If I enjoy the process, then then it just happens faster.  So talk to me about those last few attempts.

Jon Cardwell  1:06:43

And not to go too cliche, but I'll have to say that my last and my friend Edwin, who has given me the.. 

Kris Hampton  1:06:52

good dude

Jon Cardwell  1:06:53

Yeah, he he'll definitely attest to this he'll. My last five or six tries are probably my most enjoyable attempts on that route I ever had. Yeah. I knew at a certain point that I was going to do it. And it was really strange. It was this, like, weight off my shoulders before already happened. And I guess the tries before where I was holding myself back, I felt like I was holding this heavy bag of like, you know, like stress, you know. And somehow, I made a breakthrough on the route and not that I got to my high point, but I just felt so much better on it at a certain point that

Kris Hampton  1:07:33

and that comes back to that mindfulness like you even though you weren't at your high point, necessarily. You still knew you felt better. You can't you can't always judge it by what hold you got to or what level you reached. It's more, How did I feel on it?

Jon Cardwell  1:07:48

 It was kind of the feeling my attitude, my approach to when I would walk to the base of the climb when I would tie in and just be like, Alright, I'm going for it. You know, like, the last few tries were like, I was tying in for a warm up or something. I was just like, let's do this. Let's try it. You know, like, it wasn't like, oh, man, like, like, how am I gonna do?

Kris Hampton  1:08:08

What's gonna happen when I get to that move where I fell off all those times. 

Jon Cardwell  1:08:12

Yeah. And I don't know what what happened. Maybe it was Edwin had a really good attitude. He's always like, Man, you look so good. Like, yeah, that's awesome. Like, next try man. Give it another try, you know? Yeah, like having that like really, really psyched. attitude helped me. And I had a better attitude where I was just like, yeah, you're right. Like, I can do this thing next time and try it, you know, like, I'm going to tie it in an hour, you know, and like go for it. So it was really enjoyable and it just built this momentum. And then the day I did it, it was after I already tried it and it was like in perfect conditions when I tried it the first time and I got really close and I stuck the crux move I guess more solid than I ever had before. And I made the next move and my hand totally dry fired off. It was like too dry at the crag too much wind you know it's perfect but in some weird way like something happened you know, I slipped off but I wasn't at all angry. I was like so psyched, you know? 

Kris Hampton  1:09:13

That's that's an easy spot to get upset like perfect conditions. I couldn't pull it off what am I gonna do?

Jon Cardwell  1:09:19

Exactly in every I had every reason to be upset but I was like, this is awesome. You know, like lower me right away. I'm not even going to brush it. Like just lower me down. I'm going to rest you know, like, I want to give it another try today and it was the second day on and then I belayed Edwin for a while we waited for route before he could climb and then he got on and then it was maybe two hour break and all the winds stopped. It got really still. It was kind of later in the day like so it was this like kind of dew point was coming in and you know, my friend John was climbing on a open project there and Ceuse and he was like, oh conditions are horrible. Like it's not things aren't going well. And I know that sucks, you know? And it was two days on. So we knew we were resting the next day. And I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna try it anyways, you know, like, we're resting tomorrow. And I'm really psyched, you know. So let's see how things go. And I remember it vividly. Like when I was climbing, um, I wasn't my most solid, like, I was definitely like, pumped in the bottom half, which I hadn't been in the last few tries. And I was struggling a little bit, some moves are harder. But then I got to the rest, like totally clear minded, like clear headed and which shooking, was shaking out and I recovered really well. And then I went through the boulder problem, and I just kept climbing. It was the craziest feeling I've ever had, like, yeah, it was like, I rehearsed it so many times in my head, but it was actually happening. And it was, it was a struggle. I was like, kind of yelling a little bit on some of the moves. And before I knew it, I was like, set up to like, do the final throw to the last jug. And I like stuck it. Yeah, it was totally bizarre moment. And like, I really couldn't believe it. I was like, at the hole. I was totally pumped, and I clipped in the moment I like matched the hole. And I shook like once or twice and all the pump went away. Like, I felt like I was totally weightless. It was weird. And I don't think I was so pumped, it was just that, like the muscles gave out right at the moment, I got the jug, you know, like, their maximum usage was, it was done, you know, but I happened to be on the jug. So just a second on that jug, or maybe 30 seconds that I was on, it was enough. And I probably rested less than anyone had ever rested there on the route, like I shook once or twice, and I kept moving to where the next bolt is. And it's about 12a to that point. And then it's really done. Like you're you pull onto a slab and you have 5.11 and above you or even 51.0 and that's when I was like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I just did that, you know, I raced it, I went so fast.

Kris Hampton  1:11:59

That's amazing. So they don't have to goes don't have to be perfect.  

Jon Cardwell  1:12:01

They don't have to be perfect. And that's what I really like to tell people is that like, I you know, it was just the one try, I wouldn't ever guess that I would do the route. 

Kris Hampton  1:12:11

Yeah, 

Jon Cardwell  1:12:11

Is when I did it, you know? And it was all because I was like "Why not?" You know, like, I'm gonna tie in again, you know, everyone's walking down because conditions suck. But, you know,

Kris Hampton  1:12:22

Yeah, that's so important. It has a lot to do, you know, you never know where your limit is. And clearly your limit isn't 5.15 because or 15.a, because if conditions aren't perfect, and everyone else is giving up because the conditions suck. And you can still do it, carrying a pump and having a battle, then clearly, that's not your limit. Even though, you know, the year earlier, you might have thought this is my absolute limit. 

Jon Cardwell  1:12:50

Right.

Kris Hampton  1:12:51

 And and I think you never know, so why not? Give it another try and if you don't feel perfect, continue to battle. You know, and see what happens.

Jon Cardwell  1:13:01

Yeah. And I think like one will never find their limits or what they can achieve. If they don't put themselves out there on a project like this, you know, you really have to discover it for yourself. And in put in the time, you could say like, okay, that that's definitely my limit, you know, or maybe I need to come back next year and keep working on it. And then you find that, like it changes, you know, and yet with Biographie, what I growing, what I learned is I just had to grow up as a climber and, and just not necessarily let it go. But just realize like, Okay, I'm here and I'm could do this, you know, it's like, you just kind of enjoy it for what it is, you know, and stay psyched. Yeah, you know, and that's, that's where you learn, like, you know, how to try hard and when to try hard. 

Kris Hampton  1:13:47

Exactly, that's where you learn. Yeah, I think that's a good as any place to stop it. So

Jon Cardwell  1:13:52

Yeah, cool.

Kris Hampton  1:13:53

 Man, I appreciate you sitting down, it was a great talk. And I really appreciate that you can look deeper into your climbing, you know, again, back to that media thing. We only get to see the surface, you know, so so hearing what's underneath of that is really cool. I think it's definitely cool for me. Sure. It's cool for everybody who's listening.

Jon Cardwell  1:14:12

I hope so. I hope it inspires people to try harder on the projects or approach climbing differently and enjoy it more. 

Kris Hampton  1:14:19

Yeah. Man, that was a fun conversation with Jon Cardwell. First off, huge thanks to Jon for sitting down and taking time out of his busy schedule here in Lander during the International Climbers Festival. Oh man, I really appreciate it and you know, I really I really admire that Jon puts so much energy into the process and into just the the ins and outs the fine details of the process and and he's totally okay with being open about, you know, the, the challenges of it and you know, the struggles that he went through and at the same time. He, he understands that he's got some some pretty important help from sponsors and from the community. So huge, huge thanks to Jon Cardwell for sitting down. Before we go, don't forget we've got the new Ebook to App plans up Boulder Better is ready now, Boulder Strong will be by the time you're hearing this most likely, and we're only taking the first 20 people. Also, be sure to check us out if you are in any of the cities that Nate and I are going to be visiting will be aCclimb So ill, be at Boulders Gym in Wisconsin. We'll be at RockQuest in Cincinnati some all those workshops have open spots so check us out. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram and Pinterest. No Twitter's you guys know that. We don't tweet we scream like eagles.