Episode 10: Energy Systems Training with Eric Hörst

You already know the name.  You've read his books.  He's basically the first name in training for climbing in America: Eric Hörst.  My initial foray into training led me directly to his early books, and I've learned more about the science of training and how to apply it to climbing from Eric than from anyone else.

This podversation is about a new chapter in the updated 3rd Edition of Eric's book, "Training For Climbing."  If you have the 2nd Edition, you only have half the story.  This thing is packed full of new, good info, and in my opinion, is Eric's best book.  
I don't want to give away too much here, because, well, I want you to listen to the podcast!  So go do it!

You can pick up the new book HERE:                     OR the Kindle Ebook version HERE:

A couple of other books from Eric you might enjoy:

And you can always find Eric at his excellent site: www.trainingforclimbing.com

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

 What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 10 of the Power Company Climbing Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. We in double digits, y'all. This is Episode 10. I'm gonna go ahead and say that I don't even have to tell you it's official anymore. And you know what, I've got about a dozen or so pod-ver-stations in the can with people that I admire and respect and trust their opinions that I've recorded over about the last month. So we're gonna start putting these things out, maybe a little bit more frequently, maybe every three weeks instead of every four. Maybe every two, if I'm feeling like podcasting a lot, so we'll see. Anyway, I just want to let you know where we're at. Nate and I are at the last stop of our Boulder Better workshop tour. And we're in Cincinnati right now. We've had we've been, man, it's been really amazing. People have really come out people have really responded. And the all the feedback is great. All the reviews seem to be good. So we're really excited for that. And big thanks to everybody who's helped us along the way. My good friends Leif and Lindsey Gasch. My friend, Brendan Leonard, Ron Biumote. One of my favorite people, Sophie Binder. And Katie Scholtes. And Peter Bonamici. Thank you guys for having us in your homes and putting up with us. And we really, really appreciate that. And we'll see all you guys again, for sure. Thanks to everybody at all those gyms who came out. Okay, let's get on with this thing. Today, I've got a really, really great conversation with probably the first name and training in in America. Eric Horst, if you've if you've ever tried to figure out your own training, you've definitely read Eric Horst books, there's no question. So Eric and I sat down in Lander and talked about energy systems training for climbing because that's a new chapter in his in the third edition of his Training for Climbing book, which was just released. And you can find on Amazon, and it's a it's a really great update to an already great series of books. And if you have the second edition, you should definitely go get the third, there's quite a bit added. It's been reworked. I think it's the best book he's ever put out. So Alright, let's talk with Eric.

Eric Horst  03:14

So that's where climbing wisdom comes in. And so to train smarter means to not necessarily train harder.

Kris Hampton  03:38

We're actually recording this time. Yeah, take two. First off, congrats on the book looks amazing, full color. It's beautiful. And I think it really steps up the bar for not just climbing books, not just training books, but you know, training books in general. For me, a lot of training books are tough to pick up and read and get through. And, and they don't look amazing. And this one looks great. Yeah. Congrats on getting this out there.

Eric Horst  04:10

Well, third time around, we got it right.

Kris Hampton  04:12

Yeah, that's a huge accomplishment. I mean, writing one book is insane. And you've got how many before the first edition of Training for Climbing?

Eric Horst  04:20

Yeah, there's a there's been several there's been several books that's for sure.

Kris Hampton  04:24

3 editions deep. 

Eric Horst  04:25

Yeah, it's been a passion of mine. And, you know, I've been climbing for 40 years and training for 40 years and writing about training for 30 years in coaching climbers off and on for 30 years. So I've been out this a long time. You know, call me a veteran, I guess, being in my 50s but you know, this book The third edition is 16 years after the first edition that came out in 2000. 2nd edition in 2008. And, you know, those books have circulated internationally. I think I've tracked books to like 50 different countries, so that's pretty cool. Yeah, you don't get rich writing climbing books, but it is gratifying to know you're helping climbers around the world, improve their game, enjoy climbing more, you know, enjoy the experience more, that's what it's all about for me.

Kris Hampton  05:08

And it's obviously, um, it's obviously a passion of yours, you've been doing it forever. And, and even though I'm sure the money is growing more than it was, you know, back in 95, or whenever you published your first book, it, you know, it's never gonna make you rich. So...

Eric Horst  05:22

no, I mean, that's just the nature of climbing, it's still even though the sports growing, it's still kind of a niche sport. And, you know, most of the growth is in indoor climbing. I think they say like 5 million people tried climbing last year, but 80% of them didn't venture outside, which is maybe a good thing in terms of impacts. But, you know, site that people that just climbing indoors for fun, probably don't, you know, get that serious into the training and buying books and stuff but, you know, certainly to the people that take their climbing outdoors and want to, you know, take their climbing to the next level, you need information. And, you know, we've talked before, there's a lot of great information out there. I, I'm someone that when I speak to climbers, whether it's at the crag or whether it's at a clinic or a talk, I say, by everything, you know, no climbing trainer, or author has a monopoly on the truth, we're still pursuing the truth, we're still finding out what works. And even though 10 years ago, I might have thought if he asked me that I had at 90% figured out, you know, I don't think that's the case, I think we're at the tip of the iceberg. And the new research is being done. You know, I'm engaging the guys in the lab coats, doing that research. And it's exciting. And, you know, so this book provides a fresh look, it's massively overhauled, if a listener has a previous edition, you know, this book is significantly different and expanded in a number of areas, and one of them is trying to build in the latest research. And,

Kris Hampton  06:51

And I think you do a great job of that, that, you know, that you dig in deep to that research that is so hard for the rest of us to read. And, and you do a great job of kind of bridging that gap between that technical scientific writing, and, and putting it into something comprehendible for the average person. 

Eric Horst  07:10

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. I mean, there's other climbing coaches that read the research, or at least the abstracts and try to, you know, keep up to snuff, but a lot don't you know, and that's not a slight to them. I mean, if you're in the gym, and you're coaching every day, it's tough to then go home and, you know, read a technical paper, which can be overwhelming.

Kris Hampton  07:29

That's why I appreciate you putting these books out, because now my business is coaching, I spend a lot of time coaching and writing training plans for people. And I want to know what the latest research is, and I'm interested to hear it, but I don't necessarily have the time to decipher scientific paper.

Eric Horst  07:47

Yeah, so yeah, that's right. And I think, you know, there's, there's a couple of things that make a good climbing coach or trainer like yourself, is I mean, one, you need the real life experience, you need to be I've been immersed and have a significant journey that you can tap on your experience, and yours is certainly very unique and rich, you also need to have experience working with clients, every time I coach a new client, you kind of you learn from them, you know, and you get that feedback. Everybody has different genetics and responds a little differently to programs. So each, you know, each person that you coach offers you an opportunity for learning if you're, you know, self aware, and, you know, following things closely. And then the third thing is the research is not being closed minded. And, you know, kind of thinking, Hey, I know it all have it all figured out. There might be days that I feel that way, or maybe a coach feels that way. But really, they should step back and take the blinders off and realize, you know, this is a young sport when it comes to the research. And especially in the last decade, you know, the amount of research has been expanding exponentially. And I've in recent years actually gotten to engage these researchers personally, you know, next month, I'm speaking to the International Rock Climbers Researchers Association, their summit in Telluride, the best researchers from around the world will be there presenting their papers, and I'm giving a keynote talk on the application of their research and kind of also presenting, yeah, and also presenting some questions. I've started to do some, some research on my own. 

Kris Hampton  09:18

And I think it's important because you're in the field doing it.

Eric Horst  09:22

 Yeah. And so I hope to kind of maybe exchange with them, obviously, I want to learn from them what they're doing, but also as a, as someone, you know, kind of on the application side of things. Show them what I'm thinking about and what questions I'd like to have answered in a lab setting and hopefully collaborate with a couple of these guys that are have similar interest to me and so it's an exciting time, and although maybe won't benefit me because I'm in my 50s and I'm just fighting to hold where I'm at. You know, against you getting stronger though.

Kris Hampton  09:57

I keep seeing the bigger new ascents.

Eric Horst  09:59

Having teenage kids helps push me a little bit.

Kris Hampton  10:02

And you know what just I'm just gonna have to make an aside here but climb with you guys out of the crag today. Cam's man like he's...

Eric Horst  10:10

 Yeah, he's full grown now.

Kris Hampton  10:11

 He's grown up. It's crazy. Yeah. And John's not too far behind him. He's he's already well on his way to stand up comedy career.

Eric Horst  10:18

Yeah, yeah, 

Kris Hampton  10:19

Which I find amazing.

Eric Horst  10:20

We talked as much about football today as we did climbing. They're very, they're very unique individual, that's for sure. And I always like to point out to people that, you know, they read about maybe my family but don't know us is that my kids do more than just climb, you know, just clarify that I'm not an overbearing climbing parent that is just pushing my kids to fall on my foot steps. My kids came into climbing just naturally and they play tackle football. In fact, we get home in August.  They start their tackle football season and a young growing body needs to do many different movement patterns, you know, that from being an athlete, as a teenager in the school years. If you're doing one movement pattern all the time, you're setting yourself up for trouble, you know, in terms of injury and, and just burnout if you do one thing all year round. even adults burnout, but certainly kids can to. What have I done for my kids? If they would hate climbing by age 20?

Kris Hampton  11:12

Right. 

Eric Horst  11:12

Because, they did it so much. 

Kris Hampton  11:13

And they're just gonna be better athletes by experimenting in other sports and...

Eric Horst  11:17

 Yeah, so I think all climbers and you know, not just my kids, but I impress upon all people that I work with it, because climbing is such a complex activity. Yeah, you get good fast, you know, those first few years, the learning curve is steep, and you can get strong fast if you're training, right. But it's a sport where, you know, mastery and pursuing your genetic potential. You're talking you have to have a long term perspective. And there's Chris Sharma, the best climber ever, in my opinion. Although I guess Adam's up there, and Alex certainly is as well, but Sharma is in his mid 30s. And he's still pushing the limits. You know, he's talking about 15d, maybe being in his future. 

Kris Hampton  11:56

Yeah.

Eric Horst  11:56

And he's training 

Kris Hampton  11:57

He's being inspired by those young guys. So yes.

Eric Horst  11:59

Yeah. And there's..

Kris Hampton  12:00

Chris's resume is still growing. 

Eric Horst  12:00

Yeah. And then you have someone like Alex Megos. So you look at him now at 22. And you say, how much harder can the guy climb? And then you think, well, he's got another 10 or 20 years? Yeah, if he stays healthy and stays motivated and doesn't burn out, watch out, you know, who might be 16a in the future. So, you know, long term perspective, that's what I tell my kids, you know, yeah, it's great to climb hard when you're young. But it's even better just to climb for life. And I think that's the best gift I can give my kids is if they're a climber for life, so. But enough with that tangent,

Kris Hampton  12:34

Yeah, let's let's dig into kind of some of the new things that are in the book. You know, I definitely think that even if you own, you know, the first edition or the second edition of Training for Climbing, you're gonna want to pick up this one. In my opinion, this is the best of the best edition yet. So I think it's just improving. And there are some new things in here that I think are pretty interesting. We'll touch on a few of them, and I want to kind of dig into one of them in particular. First off, you've included mobility and stability training, which I think is a huge thing and coming off of my shoulder injury last year, and going through rehab for as long as I did, it really highlighted to me this this idea that we've, you know, by like you were just saying, by focusing on only climbing for so long, and doing repetitive movements over and over, we're really just destroying our bodies. 

Eric Horst  13:28

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  13:28

Potential to get better at climbing.

Eric Horst  13:31

Yeah, and if I could share one thing, I I'm glad you like that, because it's really, maybe not the most sexy addition to the book  maybe the most important for a climber who wants to have a long career is, you know, injury will sideline, you injury will, you know, if it's bad enough, you know, if you have chronic elbow tendonitis, or if you have a shoulder that has multiple injuries or repairs, it might be eventually the end of your climbing career. But I present this idea of developing stability before strength and strength before power. So you kind of I presented in the book as a pyramid with stability at the base of the pyramid strength being the middle layer, and then you power being the top of the pyramid. So it's tempting as a climber, you know, you join a climbing, strength and power exactly, you join a climbing gym or you build a home wall, and then you build that campus wall. And then you, hey, it's there, you know, and it's, it's It is, it is exciting, you know, to and it is fun, you know, to campus, but if you haven't developed your scapular stabilizers, or even if they are developed, if you're over training, you're going to end up with problems and just developing good campusing technique. You know, last summer, we spent some time in Germany and we went, we climbed with Alex Megos, who's a friend of ours, and we went to the gym with him. And I watched him campus a little bit and I'm like, Wow, I've never seen an American climber campus. The way Alex can In terms of his form, yeah, chest out, arms bent, you know, an interesting, you know, if you go to Instagram every day, there's somebody doing their campus video, you know, right showing their 1-5-8 or whatever, that's cool. It's It's exciting. But, you know, you see fully extended arms You see, shrug shoulders, and there's all the things that lead to impingement. And so climbers rushed into this. And they're not strong enough to, to train on a campus board extensively and not get injured. And now, I'm just not strong enough to train on a campus board period. So I don't have to worry about

Kris Hampton  15:34

this the other day, just a few moves here in there in between deadlifting. And it was the first time I'd tried any campus moves, since my shoulder injury. And it highlighted to me, a weakness that I wasn't aware of was there. And so I'm not going to go back and campus. But now I'm going to work on stabilizing, yeah, stabilizing those things.

Eric Horst  15:54

But it's tough, because you're young, and you're enthusiastic, and I was there. And, you know, if you survive that young, enthusiastic period, look good for you. But a lot of people don't, because they jumped straight to the campus board, or they jumped straight to, you know, some crazy form of training. And if you can be a little again, that long term perspective, and saying, Okay, you know what, yeah, I have access to this campus board. But before I do that, I'm going to do a six month period of stabilizer training. So my rotator cuff and my scapular stabilizers can actually control the joint and put it in the proper position, so that I can then campus with that good technical forum. I actually have a little video I shot of Alex that I'm going to post sometime, just so people can see that how controlled it was. And, you know, it's, it's from that step. His coaches are great, Patrick and Dickie and they take they took him in training him for a decade, through that step by step process, and don't put the cart before the horse. And 

Kris Hampton  16:54

And we don't and we don't see that

Eric Horst  16:56

It was a very mature approach, very mature coaching. And

Kris Hampton  16:58

Yeah, the end result him crushing everything he touches, but we don't see. you know, the stabilization exercises that he was doing with his coaches for years.

Eric Horst  17:09

That's right. And so it's, you know, all these videos out there on the internet on Instagram, and Facebook and stuff of people doing this crazy stuff. And, you know, young climber wants to try it. And that's cool. I, I never like to tamp down that passion. But yet, I try to, you know, educate at least the people I have access to, into hate one step at a time you'll get there. But don't rush it. And so yeah, that's all there's a whole chapter in the book that focuses on that and presents some exercises, some known some maybe not so well known that if you do them for several months, you know, I actually a couple of years ago, when I started doing these myself, I could get on the rock and actually feel like, Oh my gosh, I'm actually pulling my scapula in the proper position,

Kris Hampton  17:53

Right? When you start paying attention to it, it's pretty interesting.

Eric Horst  17:56

Yeah. And it's a sensation. I never knew before. I didn't have the kinesthetic awareness or the control. The scapula was just going where I wanted to go right. And now that I can feel that, and that's, that's, you know, when you can get to that level. And that's the whole point. The whole exercise. Exactly, exactly. And that's what a good coach is able to communicate. But for them to communicate it, they first have to be aware of it and understand it. And so, yeah, hopefully those coaches will read the book. Not that this is the final word. It's not, but it's, it's another step, you know, up in, in the data out there, and um...

Kris Hampton  18:35

I'm glad you put it in there. Yeah, you know, it's I think it's important, and it's, I think it's gaining some popularity. So yeah, im glad it's in there.

Eric Horst  18:45

And there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of stuff in the book, it's 360 pages. So it's tough to in a couple of minutes for us to for sure. Go cover all the new territory. But you know, that's one of the I think important areas, maybe not the most exciting, but one of the most important

Kris Hampton  18:58

Yep, just a quick, one of the new things that you've got in there. It's a little short section. It's actually something I've been using. I didn't have a name for it necessarily, but the daily undulating periodization Yeah, you know, I've got a lot of clients who want to perform while they're training. Yep. And for me, being a Red River climber I come from, you've got a very specific season for training and a very specific season for performing. And you know, the guys out here don't necessarily have that exciting time you're around and good conditions. So so I've been using system very similar to your daily undulating periodization. Do you want to just describe what it is kinda briefly.

Eric Horst  19:35

Yeah, well, you know, we're all familiar with, you know, a more standard periodization or periodized program where you do like a block of aerobic endurance than a block of strength and then a block of power, endurance, you know, something like that. And, you know, there's many different protocols out there, some might be 20 weeks long. I have a 10 week plan that I've used in my books for years that I really like and those work great when you have offseasons, let's say or at least if you're an east coast climber, you can't really climb hard for performance in July in August, because of conditions. So, you know, that's a training period for your fall season. So you can do those, those blocks of, you know, more, you know, multi week or month periodized program, but what do you do during your offseason? You know, or if you live in a location, you can climb year round, and you can't dedicate 10 or 20 weeks to periodized program, what do you do? Well, you know, obviously, the first thing you want to do is train for whatever your current project is, you know, that's, that's obviously a plan that we all are familiar with. But if there is no specific project, or no really clear weakness that you need to spin up, well, then you need to actually try to train everything. And when I say everything, I'm talking about all three energy systems, but you can't do them all in the same workout. So if you are doing them in the same workout, you're not training effectively. So you know, that this daily undulating program, basically, you're trying to hit each energy system at least once during the week. So if your weekend is spent, sport climbing, which is very pumped, you know, most most places, you know, one pitch routes that are very pumpy, you know, that really hammers your anaerobic lactic energy system, where you get that acity burning in your muscles. So then during the week, you would actually want to do a strength power workout, like a bouldering workout, or campusing, if you're ready for it, or, you know, hyper gravity pull ups, you know, focus on strength and power for one session, and then focus on the aerobic energy system, which would be volume climbing, but at a much lower intensity for one workout. And so then when you look at the week, as a whole, you had your to anaerobic, lactic, those are the pumpy, weekend, sport climbing days. And then during the week, you had your strength day and your aerobic day. So you look at it, you know, you've covered all four, I'm sorry, all three energy systems over the four workouts. Everybody's different, you know. So if you're bouldering, twice in the weekend, you'd actually want to do a power endurance session and an aerobic session during the week and let your nervous system recover. Because if you're bouldering, at your limit, two days in a row, your nervous system doesn't come back in a day or two, right? So really go easy on your nervous system during the week and train the other two energy systems. And that's where the book not only that, that that protocol, but actually the whole subject of energy. So...

Kris Hampton  19:36

Yeah, I really wanted to get into that, because I think that's a really important way to train and, and I had been training that way to a degree. I'm not, you know, I wasn't super versed in what I was doing exactly, it just kind of came about naturally. Knowing that these are things I need to work on, this is how I need to train them. But I think it's really interesting, the, it's becoming a little more popular looking at it in terms of energy systems. And I think that's the biggest new part of the book, right, that I think people are gonna need to look at. So let's kind of dig into that. 

Eric Horst  22:33

Sure. Yeah, well, you know, it is, it's a new way to look at things. And if someone's been doing a periodized training program, where they have a block of endurance and a block of strength and power and a block of power endurance, they're, you know, you're roughly at least, you know, you're trying to train the three energy systems and target them during those three different blocks. But what's not been intimated or presented very well, is what defines an exercise as focusing or targeting a single energy system. What are the, you know, what's the framework of a workout? That should that's just targeting strength and power, which is anaerobic, a lactic and so we kind of I think, smart climbers have had a fuzzy understanding of things and have tried to train in ways that they're training all three energy systems, but there's a lot of overlap and what I see climbers in the gym, and even myself in the past, there are when when I'm at the end of a workout, and I write everything down that I've done, it's like, shit, you know, I, I actually just did stuff that trains all three energy systems, which as I said a few minutes ago, means you're not training any of them effectively.

Kris Hampton  24:30

It's really hard to focus in

Eric Horst  24:32

It's really hard to focus in. So in this book, every exercise presented and there's 100 Plus is basically listed, as you know, tells you what the protocol is and which energy system it targets. And then it allows you to then specifically have a workout that just focuses on exercising and climbing that targets that specific energy system. With again, the goal of being very specific. So, you know, we all well, you know, coaches, you know, the number one rule and effective training is the rule of specificity, or the principle of specificity, you need to train in a very specific way, if it is to be effective, and, you know, advancing you in your sport. And of course, specific for climbing means climbing a lot and doing exercises that mimic climbing and work the same movement patterns and the same muscles and the same angle of force application, right. But the most specific you can get on a cellular level, is the way the ATP is being produced. And there's three energy pathways that generate ATP for you to power your climbing. And so the most specific form of training is one that targets the individual energy system so that we're not talking about something that a beginner is going to apply. a beginner needs to learn to climb and develop all the skill and the mental skills and then develop the stability. But if you're pretty far on your journey, and you're a more advanced climber, the more nuanced your program needs to be, again, if you're training this year, the way you were last year, you're not training effectively, the better you get, the longer in the sport, the more nuanced your training has to be to get you to the next level. And so this energy system training, you know, this kind of paradigm that I'm presenting for training specifically, is another level of nuance that climbers can leverage and utilize to, to make their workouts more effective.

Kris Hampton  26:40

Yeah, let's, let's look at the three individually just a little bit, maybe give a few examples of exercises that people can work on. So first, let's look at the anaerobic a lactic system, right? It's basically, you know, to put it in climber, layman terms, bouldering, you know, hard short sequences.

Eric Horst  26:59

That's right, you know, and so that anaerobic a lactic energy system, is what powers your, your, your, your peak movements, your whether it's a maximal crimp on an edge, or a pocket, or a powerful lock off, or a one arm pull up that's being powered by that anaerobic, a lactic energy system. And the ATP and the creatine phosphate that is stored in your muscles, is what powers that and it runs out in eight to 12 seconds. Yeah. So if you're doing if you're doing pull ups, and you start on a pull up bar, and you start doing a set of 20 pull ups, you're not training the anaerobic a lactic energy system, because 20 pull ups, if you're using good form probably takes you what 40 seconds to do 20 pull ups, well, you're deep into the, into the next energy system, which is anaerobic lactate, or which we'll get to in a moment. So to train the A lactic pathway, brief, maximal exercises. So campus training, of course, you get on a campus board,

Kris Hampton  28:03

Usually campus training, where you're going up and down, and up and down, and up and down, which is where I think a lot of people make the mistake.

Eric Horst  28:09

That's right. If you're using big sloper rails and you're lapping up and down like on big fullhand things, then you're entering other energies, you're in the anaerobic lactic because usually when people do that type of training, and that's a good form of power endurance training, if you're going up and down on a campus board for 45 seconds. That's power endurance, that's anaerobic lactic, you're training, a totally different energy system. The a lactic is the brief, maximal power 12 seconds or less.

Kris Hampton  28:36

Big pulls. The One-five-nine.

Eric Horst  28:38

Exactly, you know, yeah, or double dynos. Or if you're just breaking in, it might just be a few hand moves with your feet on. Oh, you know, it's all everything's got to be scaled, that's critical. So a beginner, you know, if you can only do five pull ups, well, then it's training, the anaerobic a lactic energy system. But if you can do 25 pull ups, well, then if you want to train that energy system with your pulling muscles, you got to add a weight. So you can only do five reps, right? So if you're doing weighted pull ups, hyper gravity pull ups, as I call it, like I do them with about 80 pounds added to my body, and do three to five reps per set, because that's all I can do. For the most part, maybe six or seven at the most. That's that's your workout for the anaerobic a lactic energy system. Yeah, maximal fingerboard hangs, you know, if you're doing a minimum edge protocol, or a maximum weight protocol, where you can only hang on the board for five or 10 seconds. Again, that's training the a lactic energy pathway. If you're going longer than that, then you're moving into the lactic and, and here's the other way you can tell if you're doing any exercise and getting pumped, then it's not a lactic, you're going along. You're going too long. If you know really, if you think about it, if you're doing maximal campusing, you don't get off the board and say you're pumped. Yeah. So that's what you're training you're training maximum strength or power for a very brief burst. No pump. In fact, when you're doing that a lactic workout if you're doing a session that focuses on exercises and climbing protocols that target that anaerobic a lactic energy system, most of the workout your resting.

Kris Hampton  30:15

Your resting. Yeah, definitely. That's tough for climbers.

Eric Horst  30:18

It's tough for climbers. That's right.

Kris Hampton  30:19

 You want to try and try and try and try and try and then you end up pumped, you know, 30 minutes into a bouldering session and it's confusing for people. And...

Eric Horst  30:27

It is and you know, so what I tell my kids, you know, we I trained with my boys in the gym, when we're doing these max strength power workouts, I'm saying, today is about resting, you know, it's so so it's about super high quality efforts on whatever exercise we're doing, you know, perfect technique, near maximal effort, it doesn't have to be to failure. In fact, most of the time, you don't want to train to failure on these types of exercises, you know, you want to stop one move short on the campus board, or maybe one rep short or two or three seconds short of the limit on your on your max weight hangs. But they're near maximal efforts, they're brief. And if you have a seven second effort, it's being followed by, you know, 10 to 20, times that length of rest. Yep. So most of the workout is resting. And if you've done it right at the end of the workout, you don't even feel that wasted, right? You know, if you know the science is tough for people to connect with that sometimes, especially initially, because they want to feel work they have, right. And that's why they have to know a little bit about the science, which which the book tries to lay out. So you're doing those sessions, and you should know that you're not going to feel wasted at the end of them. And if you do something at the end of your session to try to waste you it very well may be counterproductive. If you're trying to target the anaerobic a lactic energy system, some elite climbers will do a split workout where they'll do a morning workout that targets one energy system, and then an afternoon workout, with about a six hour break in between that targets a separate energy system. That can be a very effective way for an advanced climber to go about things. So if you need a lot of, but you need a lot of time, and you need to be ready for that, you know, you can't, you know, if you're only caught on your third year of climbing, and you're just starting to break into the higher grades, you can't train like Adam Ondra, you know, in a way, those crazy workouts that those guys do, you can't you can't do that you're gonna hurt yourself. Yeah, and so one step at a time. And again, that's what the book tries to present is the science, the protocols, and really, as evidence based as can be, at this time, approach, mature approach to going about things now, if all you do is train anaerobic, a lactic, you're going to get really powerful for a couple of moves, you'll be good at doing three move boulder problems, yeah. But if you hit a 15, move boulder problem, or you want to get on a sport route, that's not enough, you need to train the other energy system. So again, that's what the book tries to map out is how you can go about that. So that's the first energy system.

Kris Hampton  32:59

There's one more thing I want to touch on in in the anaerobic a lactic system. And first, just a quick sidebar, something I do with my clients that I think works really well is I have some of them use a timer when they're resting in between problems. But if you're not going to carry a timer into the gym, or you don't take your phone, in the gym with you, or whatever, I try to suggest that my clients take their shoes off in between problems. It's really easy. If you keep your shoes on to just jump back up and try it again,

Eric Horst  33:27

Forces you to take that break.

Kris Hampton  33:28

But if you take your shoes off, you're gonna sit there for a few more minutes. So I think it's just a good, good habit to get into if you try really hard on a boulder problem. Take shoes off, sit down, wait until you're ready to try him.

Eric Horst  33:40

Right. Okay. And again, I think a climber if they're going to try to use the energy system training methods, you know, they have to recognize there is a difference between a five move, a vicious five move boulder problem, which takes 10 or 15 seconds, and a longer boulder problem where you're fighting and you're getting pumped at it. Yes, yeah, you're on there for 30 or 45 seconds. They're not the same thing when it comes to energy says

Kris Hampton  34:05

Yeah, and it's easy to get trapped into wanting to send. So you end up doing the same five moves you can already do leading into the move where you keep falling, right? That move where you keep falling might not be maximal effort for you, it might just be that you're getting a little pumped when you get there. So...

Eric Horst  34:22

Yeah, and that's the beauty of a campus board or of a system wall is that, you know, you're not locked into setting or sending a set problem, right? You're using that system or campus board as a tool. And you know, ahead of time, okay, I'm doing five moves. That's when I do the five moves, I step off, and I rest Yep. You get on a boulder problem. It's not always that way. You know, every boulder problem is different and some are most are gonna take you more than 10 or 15 seconds and hence you go you start to go pretty deep into the anaerobic lactic energy system. That's the one that you're getting pumped at. That's the signal that you're into that zone and I guess we can talk about that next year if you want. 

Kris Hampton  35:01

Yeah. So the anaerobic lactic system is longer boulders, short sport climbs, it very much gets targeted here, the Wild Iris you better we were climbing today. So yeah, let's let's dig into that. 

Eric Horst  35:17

Yeah. So

Kris Hampton  35:18

This is the pump area.

Eric Horst  35:19

This is the pump area. And you know, there's a, you know, the science is still getting flushed out, you know there for the last 50 years we've heard about lactic acid. Yeah. And you know, it's it's, it's a subtle you know, the lactate molecules and hydrogen ions dissociate in the body. And so lactic acid doesn't really exist. You create lactate, and you create hydrogen ions among other byproducts of anaerobic metabolism of glucose. And so you're getting acidic when you get into that pumpy zone. 

Kris Hampton  36:00

And we've always looked at that as a big negative thing. But lactate isn't necessarily just a negative.

Eric Horst  36:06

That's right. Yeah. And again, it's it's it's a, it's a kind of a complex subject. But science is pretty much figured it out. The lactate is not a bad thing. The hydrogen ions are because the hydrogen ions, that's what lowers the pH inside of the cell. And actually, if you are exercising, maximally for 45 seconds, the pH drops markedly inside of the cell. And what that does is it affects the mitochondria, which are what aerobically generate ATP, and drive recovery. If you climb to the point of getting very acid-y, chronically many days in a row, mitochondria efficiency can actually be hammered back. And you can actually lose endurance. And so and of course, the the dropping pH is one of the things that most threatens homeostasis, and your body shuts down your set. Basically, your brain, your central nervous system will shut you down. That's one of the reasons as you start getting pumped in that muscle burn your body to start, the muscles start to shut down. Yeah, yeah, because they want to preserve homeostasis. And only by stopping anaerobic metabolism of glucose, do you stop making those hydrogen ions, and then they can get out of the cell into the bloodstream and circulate, you know, and eventually be buffered by bicarbonate and you know, and actually, lactate is a buffering mechanism that it's kind of a first stop, or first step in trying to buffer the ions is, you know, basically, at about two minutes, anaerobic metabolism of glucose virtually ceases. So when you're doing those rule pumpy sections on a steep sport route, or on a long boulder problem, that pump grows and grows and grows. And despite all the training in the world, you can't go much beyond about two minutes, right?

Kris Hampton  38:09

Which makes it pretty important to climb fast.

Eric Horst  38:12

To climb fast. 

Kris Hampton  38:13

We watch BJ today climbing ridiculously fast, in my opinion, because I'm a slow sloth like climber. Yeah, no. And I heard Cam actually comment on it that he climbs really fast. 

Eric Horst  38:25

Yeah. And yeah, look at Ondra look at Megos.

Kris Hampton  38:27

 Yeah, exactly.  You know, it's funny, the strong climbers you think don't need to climb fast, but they're smart enough to know they need to do it. And so really what I tell people and actually, one of the ways I've coached my son's in redpointing is you got to get from one rest position to the next in under two minutes, the faster the better, And do it efficiently. Yeah, you can't just be sloppy and fly through

Eric Horst  38:48

Moving fast is of no benefit if your technique suffers, but as fast as you can move without a drop off and quality of movement is beneficial. And, you know, if you watch Ondra on his videos, these long, sustained routes, like Flatanger, or even some of the stuff in Spain, he'll go from one rest to the next in under two minutes. And if he doesn't, he falls. And now what he can rest on right is and what you and I can rest on is different. Why is that? Because he's stronger. You know, so that's something I also explained in the book is rule number one is get stronger, because that is kind of that's that's the ultimate defining measure on what you can rest on. And there's science behind that, that maybe we don't want to get into today, but the stronger you get, the smaller the hold, you can rest on so again, for me, I need a fullhand jug. If I'm at the Red River Gorge to shake out and get something back, right. You know, a 5.14 climber can probably shake out on a you know two pad hold and maybe Ondra on a one pad hold which

Kris Hampton  39:53

is why it's so hard for 5.14 climbers to grade 5.12s at the Red because they'll all hold, the rest holds you down. So yeah, it's nearly impossible for them to know what they're climbing on.

Eric Horst  40:04

So what we're unraveling here is a pretty complex topic tough to really fully, you know, describe to a listener in a podcast, my book tries to do it tries to get you started on understanding this concept of energy system training and how they are all they're all intertwined. And by the way, you know, here an example of that is the lactate that is generated by the anaerobic metabolism of glucose, that rising lactate can be used to generate ATP aerobically, right, so mighty basically becomes a fuel, it becomes a fuel, it's a bridge between the lactic system and the aerobic system. And this is interesting, there's research that shows that better aerobic, trained climbers recover more quickly. And one of the reasons there's several reasons, but one of the reasons is, they can metabolize and utilize that lactate, and help hasten the return of homeostasis. Because they have a better aerobic energy system, not only a climbing specific aerobic energy system, like saying the forearms or arms, but a general aerobic system. And you know, we could do a whole podcast on the pros and cons of running for climbers. But one of the pros of doing a moderate amount of running is you train your leg muscles to consume lactate.

Kris Hampton  41:26

So think I'm gonna have this sort of bomb noise in here right now. everybody's like, wait, he's telling me to run?

Eric Horst  41:31

Yeah, yeah. Well, there's pros and cons. Yeah. pros and cons. And for everybody, you have to do that assessment and determine whether it will be beneficial.

Kris Hampton  41:39

Yeah, exactly. And I think the people who love to run and who already overdo it probably don't need to be doing it to the degree that they are. Yeah. And I think people whenever they read any training book kind of grab on to the things that they already do. And they're already good at and oh, good. I'm going to do more of that. You know, and I don't think that's what you're saying at all?

Eric Horst  42:00

No, no, and you can't run yourself to being a better climber, right? Just like you can't deadlift your way to being a better climber. But does that mean deadlifting is not useful for climbers, I would argue, as I do in the book that a little bit of the right protocol might actually help you out. And same thing with running a little bit. The right protocol, the right amount, will help you in certain ways, obviously, it'll help somebody if they have body composition issues. You know, dropping dropping weight is the quickest way to improve your apparent strength. If you're overweight, if you're not overweight, well, then running can still help you a little bit by that the cardiovascular general of aerobic conditioning, again, you know, if you're training, running 70 miles a week, or doing too much, right, but a moderate amount of running, you know, Alex Megos told me he runs like, you know, 5 to 10 kilometers three or four days a week. That's what works for him, everybody's got to find out what works for them. Sure. For some climbers, maybe it's zero running. But the research is pretty clear that aerobic-lee trained climbers recover more quickly. Maybe not critical if you're just a boulder specialist. But if you're a rock climber, recovery is pretty important how fast you recover at those rest positions, or between redpoint burns, or even if you're a competition climber, where you have a five minute rest and try to get on your next boulder. That recovery is important. And by the way, final thing about how the energy systems dovetail the aerobic energy system is what regenerates the anaerobic a lactic energy system, right? We talked about the creatine phosphate in the in your muscles that help power this brief short movements, maximal movements, it gets created aerobically all recovery is aerobic. So you know, that's why even a boulderer, you can make a case for doing some aerobic conditioning, at least climbing specific aerobic conditioning, because if they're mitochondria can regenerate that creatine phosphate more quickly. They will recover more quickly between boulders, they'll recover more quickly on micro rests, where you just get to flex your hand once or twice for two seconds. And you get enough to do one more move, right? Yeah, we've all experienced that I did yesterday, I was on Last Man Standing and I made it through all the hard stuff, but my grip was giving out and I got one or two quick flick flexes of my fingers not even long enough to get into my chalk bag, right. But it was enough to get a little oxygen moving mitochondria crank out a few ATP, and boom, I was able to grab one more cramp and finish the route.

Kris Hampton  44:32

Awesome.

Eric Horst  44:32

That micro recovery is trained by doing some targeted aerobic energy system training. So again, even if you think it's all about this maximum strength and power, you find out the energy systems dovetail. And to really, I think climb your best, you need a nuanced program that addresses all three energy systems.

Kris Hampton  44:54

I'm glad you said that because now I'm going to refer all my bouldering clients. Back to this podcast. Yeah, because when I give them, you know, low intensity, recovery days that are mostly just aerobic climbing, they're like, well, I'm just a boulderer, I don't need to do that, you know, and right, and I feel like they do.

Eric Horst  45:12

Yeah, and there's a couple of important distinctions and maybe we can move into the aerobic energy system here. The third and final energy says um, you know, a couple of the distinctions, we need to recognize the difference between a general aerobic training activity like running or any other, you know, swimming, biking, you name it, I prefer running but you could do a concept to rower machine, that's a generalized aerobic training works your whole body, right, it doesn't target the climbing muscles, then you have climbing specific aerobic training, where you're targeting the forearms and the pulling muscles with a climbing activity or training activity, that is at the proper intensity, to primarily work, that aerobic energy system not going too deep into the lactic energy system. One thing I present in the book that I think is unique, I don't I haven't seen it presented for a climber yet, is the idea of a training intensity scale. It's a subjective perceived exertion scale, where based on the pump that you're feeling, the breathlessness that you acquire, and just your effort on a scale of 1 to 10. Being able to roughly approximate what energy system you're targeting. And there's actually a graphic in the book that explains it a lot better than I can with words here in a podcast. But that very casual, low intensity climbing, people call it arc training or recovery training, right, where you're just kind of moving in the wall, there's very little sets of any pump, you're, that's probably like a best effort of 5 out of 10. That obviously targets the aerobic energy system, you're not getting pumped, you're not doing maximal moves, you can climb for 20 or 30 minutes traversing on easy terrain, and you're not getting pumped up. And it's not really getting that you're not getting pumped. Yeah, you know, so that lower intensity training, recovery, training, art training, whatever you wanna call it, your perceived exertion is at best a five. As you get higher on that perceived exertion scale. Usually it's around a seven or eight where the pump starts to develop, right? You get, you know, to a nine, it's a blistering pump, you're out of breath, you're deep into the lactic energy system, the anaerobic lactic energy system, you're no longer training, just the aerobic energy system. And by the way, all three energy systems are all operating simultaneously. Sure, at all times, yeah. It's just about which one's doing the most work, which one's being taxed the most or becomes the limiting constraint. So it's usually around a seven or eight on that perceived exertion scale where the pump starts to build. And you kind of cross a threshold and it's not, it's not a sharp crossing. It's, you know, it's a transition. And actually, the most effective training of the aerobic energy system isn't that arc training, that recovery training that's at a 5 out of 10. But it's right when you're in that threshold zone where the pump is starting to build. I say I talk, you know, again, when I train at my house, I, I think about a moderate pump that is kept under control, versus a pump that becomes blistering and you're breathless and you're out of control. You've gone really deep into the anaerobic lactic at that point. So the best for training mitochondria efficiency, and mitochondria are very plastic. The research shows that, you know, a dedicated four week period of quality aerobic training can increase your mitochondria density and efficiency significantly, so that you will perform better on those long routes like Red River Gorge climbing guys think of the longer you can energize your climbing aerobically. The you know, the longer you can go till you get pumped, you know,

Kris Hampton  49:30

What you say you say in the book, that aerobic system is, you know, two minutes to two hours, if you're, if you're on the wall for in between that period of time, that's what, that's what systems gonna have to take over.

Eric Horst  49:41

That's right. But if you're on the wall, long time, if you're climbing at that low ARC, you know, intensity, that kind of recovery intensity, where you can go for 20 or 30 minutes. That's actually not the most in my opinion, and based on research, not the most effective way to bring about the adaptations of the aerobic energies. You're looking for. Get more, write a little more, you need to tax the aerobic system to get it to adapt. I mean, we're talking about, you know, angiogenesis building of capillaries, we're talking about increasing oxidative enzymes we're talking about, most importantly, mitochondria density and efficiency, among other adaptations that occur. And you'll get the best adaptations by taxing your aerobic energy system, as maximally as you can, without dipping too deep into the anaerobic lactic energy system, because you dip too deep into that and get acidic. That actually, you know, has a negative effect on mitochondria. So again, we, I call it threshold workouts. And that's not a name I invented, that's been used by runners for decades.

Kris Hampton  50:48

Where on your scale, would you put that?

Eric Horst  50:51

Right. So for every climber would be different. But that threshold level would be anywhere from a seven to an eight and a half the way I presented on my scale. So again, you're you're you're starting to get pumped, but it's a controllable pump. It's not the blistering pumping, you're not starting to suck for air, you're not like starting to thrash on your, your route, or your you're climbing whatever, you know, platform you're using. It's all about maintaining control. And if you find yourself losing control, you lower the intensity and get back under control. And and so you, I think an interval training approach where you climb in that threshold zone of seven to eight and a half, for anywhere from at least three minutes, but up to maybe seven or eight minutes, going much longer than that, again, if you're to go much longer than that, you're probably at that intensity, right. So again, it's it's it's not a precision thing. But I think that subjective, seven to eight and a half out of 10 is what most climbers would want to target. And if you find you're thrashing, you're getting a strong or a heavy pump, you're getting out of breath, you're about to fall off, well, then you've gone way too deep, you got to pull back. And so it takes a little bit of experience to kind of suss it out, we're lucky to have a tread wall at the house. So we actually have different size holds on the wall. And actually, to really format it we made wooden holds of three different sizes, plastic holds are great, but all plastic holds are different. And it's tough to really control your training. So by having small, medium and large wood holds, we can adjust our training, you know, we can climb on the medium wood holds. And if we're starting to get too far, we can go to the big load of holes and go back and kind of go back and forth and just try to stay in that threshold zone. For whatever we have, we decided to go three or five or eight minutes, whatever it would be, and then you take a rest. And the rest should not be all that long, they should at most be a one to one work rest ratio, and then you get back on and so your total climbing time will end up being 30 or 40 minutes. But you're not doing 30 or 40 minutes straight. Again, if you're doing 30 or 40 minutes straight, you're at too low of an intensity level to really bring about the best adaptation. So I like to differentiate between the recovery climbing or the art climbing, which is the longer lower intensity. And that's good to do on just an easy day or recovery day versus a threshold workout, which ends up being a pretty hard workout. But again, you have to have self control and not go too deep, that it turns into anaerobic lactic workout, right? And so and again, that's where, you know, you may have the best plan written down on paper, but if you can't execute it and have the self control to stay where you need to be...

Kris Hampton  53:52

Self control is the limiting factor there, you need to be in control.

Eric Horst  53:56

Yeah, one term that i i use in this book, and it's actually perfect. I have not heard someone else talk about it. But climbers have a pump lust.

Kris Hampton  54:06

Yeah, right. Sure. That's a great word. Yeah,

Eric Horst  54:09

Yeah, you go to the gym. You want that pump. Yeah. And unless you've gotten that blistering pump, unless you walk out of the gym feeling like you can't, you know, turn the keys in your ignition. You feel like you had a bad workout?

Kris Hampton  54:21

Yeah, you have to get past that totally gonna use that. Yeah, I grew up that way I had I had pump lust forever,

Eric Horst  54:27

You got to get past the pump lust. So and now if you're doing an anaerobic lactic workout, then go for it, you know, you know, satisfy that lust. But if you're doing a threshold workout, or if you're doing a strength, power workout, you know, be free of the lust and know that you're you're you're leveraging science and not succumbing to the lust of the pump. And and so a climber. They might do a perfect threshold. workout, but then wreck it at the end.

Kris Hampton  55:02

Because they have to get pumped.

Eric Horst  55:04

Because they have to get pumped. You know. 

Kris Hampton  55:06

And I saw a post by Andrew Bisharat at the other day that I thought you said this pretty well, it just said training is about restraint.  And performance. I don't remember what he said it was about but basically, that's the part I want to highlight is that you have to use restraint, especially when you're trying to use energy systems. 

Eric Horst  55:25

Yeah. And, and you know, and it's, you know, climbers or going to the gym and doing what they intuitively think is the best thing, we fail on routes, because we pump out, we fail on routes, you know, you know, a long, hard, steep redpoint, and you're just, you know, you fall going for the anchors on The Force at the Red, as I did several times a few years ago. Yeah, you feel like, oh, man, your body is wasted, you're sucking for air, and you think I gotta go to the gym and replicate that perfectly.

Kris Hampton  55:57

And there's value in that.

Eric Horst  55:58

And there is value in that. But that can't be every workout.

Kris Hampton  56:01

Especially if you're, you need to learn the skill of climbing with a pump and learning how far you can go before you fail. You know, that's where I, I prescribe that type of climbing for people, you know, go until failure, even though that's not the popular thing to do. I think if you don't learn it, while you're training, you're gonna learn a hard lesson while you're performing.

Eric Horst  56:26

Right. And you know, it's and... 

Kris Hampton  56:27

But it should be kept early on in your climbing, I think.

Eric Horst  56:31

Yeah, and it's obviously important to train that anaerobic lactic energy system, the one that gives you that massive blistering pump, you need to train it, you can't ignore that. But a lot of climbers that every workout ends up devolving into that into training that energy system. And here's the interesting thing that's the least trainable of the three energy systems is the anaerobic lactic energy system, the adaptations that result from that are very limited. So if you're training that all the time, you're missing the boat

Kris Hampton  57:03

And training, the other two will help it.

Eric Horst  57:04

Training, the other two are hugely helping, by getting stronger, you'll you'll, you'll be able to climb at a lower percentage of your maximum and dip less deeply into the lactic zone. And by having a stronger aerobic system. You can be powered aerobically longer. So again, it gets back to you need to train all three energy systems, but most climbers, most of the time, and I've been there for years devolve into training, or you know, trying to satisfy that pump lost, because that's what they experienced when they fail, and therefore they conclude every workout has to end that way. every workout has to target that. And I'm telling you listener, if that is you, you're not training as effectively as you can. And really those adaptations that result from those blistering workouts. they accumulate and increase for only two to four weeks. That's what you know, it's looking like. So if you're doing more than a two to four week block of anaerobic lactic training, after that two to four week period, you're kind of wasting your time. The most important time to do that too. 

Kris Hampton  58:18

And your skin.

Eric Horst  58:19

 Yeah, yeah, and maybe your joints and your tendons and everything else. But the most important time to do that two to four week block of that pumpy anaerobic lactic training is right before your performance timing. Exactly. So you want to train your aerobic energy system, you want to train your anaerobic, a lactic, that's your strength and the power. And then your last block, if you're going into competition, or if you're heading on a road trip, or if you're heading to a crag to go for your PR redpoint, your last two to four weeks of your cycle should be that anaerobic lactic energy system because it does a couple things for you, it gets the anaerobic enzymes up, it gets your buffering systems up and working. And that's what you want heading to performance day. The strengthen and the aerobic training have to be done way ahead of time. And then kind of that last period trains that anaerobic lactic energy system now you can't train it up to the last day you need to taper properly and I have a section in the book about how to do a proper taper. You know, you want to get to the crag fresh, obviously. And you know one thing I was even tell my kids, you can't cram when it comes to training. Yeah, if you're heading to the crag on Saturday and Sunday, a blistering workout on Thursday is not a smart thing. Yep. Even if you're young and recover quickly, it's still not a smart thing. Even if I mean if you're a weekend warrior, and you get Tuesdays Thursdays to train. That doesn't mean at the peak of your season. You should be going hard on Thursday. In preparation for the week. No, you're not going to be 100% and but yet it's gratifying because you think man, I'm getting that last minute workout in itself really gonna make the difference. And oftentimes that last minute workout yet makes the difference that prevents you from sending your project on the weekend. So, you know, again, that's the art of program design. And, and that's where a really good coach can be helpful. I mean, many times throughout my book and every time I give a training talk or engage somebody electronically, I say, find a good coach, if there's one in your area, or if you have access to a Kris Hampton or whoever, find a good coach. And it's sometimes hard to tell a good or a bad coach, you know, and that's a whole other topic. But you know, the art of exercise program design, that that is really huge. And having that, you know, that long term game plan, it's not about what you did your last workout, it's what you did the last 10 weeks or the last 10 years if you're really in a long term.

Kris Hampton  1:00:54

Yeah, no doubt, I think that's really important to say, and that's probably a good place for us to wrap it up. I know, you've got family and dinner and Tony's pizza, too. And, but man, congrats on the book again, and thank you for the years of mentorship. You know, definitely your books were, were huge for me early on, you know, the How to Climb 5.12 and reading those books early when I started sport climbing, and I'm really getting into training, where we're big for me. Well, I appreciate I appreciate you letting me into this circle. Yeah, so

Eric Horst  1:01:30

Well, I, you know, one thing in recent years I've enjoyed more and more is really encouraging the next generation of climbers and the next generation of climbing coaches I hear almost monthly from a college student who's studying exercise physiology, maybe they're pursuing their masters, and they're looking for research topics, they want to cut themselves a career in climbing or training for climbing. And, and I, I like encouraging this, I hear from people that want to write climbing books, and I actually encourage them, you know, I mean, when you talked about starting your business, I encourage you, yeah, you know, I, I, you know, there's maybe some coaches or authors out there who think that only their stuff counts, but that's not me, I think, the more information, the better, of course, the consumer of that information has to do their due diligence and understand the resource, or the source of that information and try to determine the quality of it. And, and also try to reconcile the often conflicting information that's out there. And, and that can be a challenge for, for the consumer, my book, hopefully, while again, not the final word, hopefully can give a good mature understanding of the science of how to go about training. And with that, you know, hopefully, you know, become a healthy, strong climber for life. And, yeah, but...

Kris Hampton  1:02:59

If you get something from Eric's books, and you know, send a message, let him know, I know, he loves to hear that stuff. And 

Eric Horst  1:03:05

That yeah, the the the climber feedbacks the best, I mean, every time we travel, these summer trips, you know, every, you know, crag I go to and last summer in Europe, people recognize me or the family and come up, and the kudos and the appreciation and the smiles on the faces. I mean, that's, you know, that's why I do all this. That's why I got into training for climbing. It's probably why you got into tranfer, you know, Todd Skinner, and I used to joke that we enjoy training, almost as much as climbing and thinkyou're probably that way as well. I mean,

Kris Hampton  1:03:33

And I'm finding now that I like watching the people I coach succeed, maybe more than I care about my own successes, you know.

Eric Horst  1:03:44

For sure.

Kris Hampton  1:03:45

 When someone sends something, I get so excited. And when I send something, it's like, okay, on to the next one.

Eric Horst  1:03:51

Yeah, yeah, that joy, because we can all relate to clipping the anchors on your project. That's one of the that's why we keep coming back. But, you know, training is fun. And I guess the closing thought I would have for people is smart training is even better, you know, it's even more fun, because that means you're training effectively. And, you know, you know, so hopefully, people can take away the idea of that pump last, there's workouts, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that there's workouts to satisfy that and there's workouts to to avoid it and to shun that. And the other thing I guess readers should or listeners should do is ask themselves, what junk training they can get rid of, you know, there's stuff that we all do at the gym, that provides no benefit whatsoever. It's like, there's dogma that says you should do this or do that. Or, you know, that extra final lap on your router problem. Maybe the smarter thing is to not do it. And you know, so then that's where climbing wisdom comes in. And so to train smarter means to not necessarily train harder. And I guess that that we can wrap it up here.

Kris Hampton  1:04:58

Yeah. All right, we'll go get some pizza. I appreciate you sitting down with me.

Eric Horst  1:05:01

Absolutely anytime, Kris.

Kris Hampton  1:05:06

Oh man, what a great talk filled, absolutely filled with information, you're going to have to listen to that one a couple of times. I got a lot out of it listening to it the second and third times myself. So definitely go back and check that out. And definitely look for Eric's book online, I've got some links on the blog site. So you can definitely pick it up there through Amazon. The third edition of Training for Climbing I really really believe that it's Eric's best book and and I really appreciate that Eric is the go between guy between these these lab coats in there in the labs and the the climbers are out there actually doing it. Eric is a good a good person to talk to those guys because he retains that scientific information which is really hard for me to do. And then he can translate it into real climber speak because he's actually out there on the rocks doing the thing. And you know, I train and I coach by feel mostly by anecdotal evidence and, and what works for each individual person. But I like to know the science so that I can apply it and Eric makes it easy for me to understand and he'll make it easy for you to understand as well so definitely check that out. And don't forget we've got the new app plans out that were former Ebooks and those are the Boulder Better, the Boulder Strong, and all the variations of the Climb 5.12 program. So check out powercompanyclimbing.com click on the train with us link and you'll find those. Also, we've got the Ebooks out there still those things are popular. If you haven't checked them out, you might just find one for you. And look for us on the social medias. The Facebook, Instagram, the Pinterest and the Twitter. Yeah don't look for us there because we don't tweet we scream like eagles.