Episode 27: Why Form Matters with Paul Corsaro

Today we're talking to our very own Strength and Conditioning Coach, Paul Corsaro, about a topic that is extremely important to all of us: Why Form Matters.  Whether it be strength training, climbing, or just sitting at a desk chair.  Regardless of what you're doing, form matters.  This is something of a nebulous topic to try and discuss, but Paul makes it easy to understand.  

Paul is one of the best coaches I've ever had the pleasure to work with, and we're fortunate to have him on our team.  

You can always check out more of what Paul does at www.cruxconditioning.com.  His "Bullet Points and Brews" blog posts are a must read for those of us who are constantly surfing the intrawebs for training info.

You can now work directly with Paul through our "Kettlebells for Climbers" Proven Plan.  We also have an ebook version of that plan, authored by Paul.  

Subscribe to Paul's blog, share us on your social media, and tell all of your friends about us!

We don't tweet.  We scream like eagles.  

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:16

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 27 of the Power Company Podcast  brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. I am out here in sunny and beautiful Hueco Tanks, Texas. I'm here to emcee the Hueco Rock Rodeo, which starts officially tomorrow. And by the time you're hearing this, it'll be officially today. So if you're listening to this, on your way to Hueco, come and say, Hi, I'll be the guy with the microphone and the loud voice all weekend long at the Rock Ranch. And, you know, I wanted to get this out to you guys before the rodeo started, because I know I'll be swamped. And I know that you guys all got spoiled. I mean, we were doing an episode a week, leading up until the new year. And since then, we've just been doing a couple of months. So I know you got spoiled, I did a little too frankly. And you know, I want to I want to write that ship. So I'll make a deal with you guys. We are currently $3 a month away from our next goal of $100 per month on our Patreon page. And that means that you just pledge a certain amount per month could be $1, three of you do $1 will reach our $100 goal. And on the page it says that we can guarantee two podcasts a month once we reach that, but I'll go ahead and say that I'll guarantee three cuz I mean, I'm already doing two, so might as well step it up if you guys do. Yeah, that's patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. So please go check that out. also go to iTunes, leave some reviews and ratings. You guys have been great about that. And I really, really hugely appreciate it. And I just wanted to read a couple of reviews from some good friends of mine who are also out here in Hueco. Titled best in the game from Johnny snaps Wesley aka Johnny Lightning photographer extraordinaire. If you aren't following him on Instagram, lightningsnaps you should be. He says listening to this podcast is so beneficial for my climbing that I'm not even sure I need to train anymore. I measured my forearms after listening to the episode with Dru Mac and they grew two inches in circumference. After the Arno episode, I resided in this news in space that allows me to literally float a few inches off the ground, but only if I choose to. That's fact actually I've seen Johnny Lightning float. He's quite good at it, actually. And the second one I want to read from Johnny's significant other and you know, frankly, better half, let's just be honest. Hannah Dwyer says, titled lost my boyfriend to this podcast. And she says my boo is bad enough at listening normally. But when a new Power Company comes out, bae is completely unreachable. Worst part is the podcast is so good. I can't even get mad. Thanks, Hannah. Thanks, Johnny. I appreciate you guys. You guys go to iTunes, leave ratings and reviews, or go to patreon.com/powercompanypodcast and pledge some hard earned monies will make it worth your while. I'm just going to go ahead and get on with this thing, because I've got a great conversation with our strength and conditioning coach and good friend, Paul Corsaro. And we're talking about why form matters in both your strength training, and in your climbing training. And really, in your performance and everything you do. Why form? Why breathing? Why all that matters. So I'm going to go ahead and let Paul take it away.

Kris Hampton  02:50

Not being mindful about doing things correctly. And keeping good safe form proper alignment your joints compromising form to put up bigger numbers doesn't mean you got stronger at all.

Paul Corsaro  04:35

It'll be cool because I'm actually heading out there and there's actually been some climbing development that's going on out there. I was able to do a little bit of sport climbing. I was last out there. Really cool setting and there's a climbing bouldering competition happening while you're gonna be there while I'm there. It's the last day I'm there and my flights in the late late evening. So I don't know if we'll be able to do the actual bouldering competition. Yeah, but I'm going out there to help tag up the boulders and they're doing kind of a triple crown style thing so.

Kris Hampton  05:01

That's really cool.

Paul Corsaro  05:01

It's it's, yeah, I'm really excited. I mean, there's Instagram accounts out there. Bouldering, Hawaii, a couple other ones, but there's... 

Kris Hampton  05:08

Photos from your sport climbing looked cool.

Paul Corsaro  05:10

Yeah, it was, uh, the setting was pretty unbelievable. Cool, solid, blobby, lava rock with really cryptic sequences on the beach with the breeze blowing through.

Kris Hampton  05:21

Yeah. And you just, like, hooked up with some people on the interwebs? 

Paul Corsaro  05:24

Yeah, I reached out to again that bouldering Hawaii accounts guy named Matt Ludie. super friendly. Um, yeah, I sent him an Instagram message out of the blue and kind of asked about some beta for climbing out there. And his response was, yeah, we're heading out these days. Here's a phone number. Come climb with us. 

Kris Hampton  05:41

Nah, man. That's the best. 

Paul Corsaro  05:42

It was great. 

Kris Hampton  05:43

That's one of the coolest things about this community, for sure. 

Paul Corsaro  05:46

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  05:46

That happens again, and again. And again. It's really cool to see.

Paul Corsaro  05:50

And people who put time into developing spend their money and time looking for stuff. They're super stoked to share it usually. And we're lucky to have those people out there. So Matt, if you listen to this, thanks for hooking me up. All the people I met out there, I'm excited to meet more of you. It'll bea  good time.

Kris Hampton  06:06

Awesome. Shout out. Matt Ludie?

Paul Corsaro  06:09

Yes, yes.

Kris Hampton  06:10

Shout out, Matt. So what what we're going to talk about today, among other things, is why form is important. Specifically, when you're strength training, I see a lot of dudes and, and really, frankly, I kind of came from this background originally where you, you're really focused on the weight, you know, sort of similar and climbing to how you're super focused on the numbers. And that becomes this the most important part of it. And then they compromise their form, just to throw up bigger numbers. You know, and that's a big mistake. And, and I think we should just talk about why. So I think a lot of people don't even understand it. They're just like, well, but I'm lifting heavier. Yeah, you know, and so yeah, let's, let's dig into that.

Paul Corsaro  07:02

So I guess first thing to think about there is you just got to consider you got your short term viewpoint and your long term viewpoint and short term, yes, yeah, maybe this next session or the session, after that, you'll be able to lift a little bit heavier, a little bit heavier. But if you're not being mindful about doing things correctly, and keeping good safe form, proper alignment in your joints, you're going to increase in your ability or your the numbers you put up, I won't say strength, because I think compromising form to put a bigger numbers doesn't mean you got stronger at all.

Kris Hampton  07:31

 Sure.

Paul Corsaro  07:32

But um, yeah, you'll increase you'll increasing your, I guess, measurable results shortly. But that's going to lead to either plateau, overtraining, or you're getting hurt. And then you're gonna have to back off and start all over again, and kind of not really have gone anywhere, where if you take the long term viewpoint and just be a little bit more patient, Own your weight own the weight you're working with. Hopefully, that injury or that plateau doesn't happen. And you can keep slowly chipping, chipping, your weight up chip and your performance up over time. And your long term results are going to be much more significant and much more sustainable than just trying to add another plate on and just getting it up off the ground. Any way you can.

Kris Hampton  08:14

Yeah, and I think that I think that was a cool point that you made. And to kind of unpack that a little bit in climbing terms for people out there who are like, well, I put up a bigger number, of course, I got stronger. You know, I think maybe it's like, if you're looking at a boulder problem in the gym, and, you know, say it's this random V5 in the gym, and you can't do the move off of the sloper. So instead, you mono the bolt hole. And then you can do the problem doesn't mean you got better. You didn't improve. And that's how you did the problem. All you did was compromise, you know, the the correct way to do the problem. And then you were able to do it, but you didn't get any stronger. 

Paul Corsaro  09:00

Right. 

Kris Hampton  09:01

And that's basically what you're saying. 

Paul Corsaro  09:02

Yes. Yeah. And it's important to figure out the most efficient way to do something. But looking at the long term view of things. Yeah, once you do that next problem, or you lift that next weight, you're automatically or next year, next amount of weight you lift, you're automatically gonna look at the next thing. What's the next step? And if you weren't sustainable or reasonable and how you achieve the previous step, you really haven't moved down the path towards the next step.

Kris Hampton  09:30

Right, right. Like on the next problem, you're gonna get a more shallow bolt hole.

Paul Corsaro  09:33

 Yes.

Kris Hampton  09:33

It's just not gonna work.

Paul Corsaro  09:34

Yeah. Not sustainable.

Kris Hampton  09:37

Yeah, totally. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand that and then they end up just bailing, like they, you know, I got stronger. I got to this point. All right, I'm done. Yeah, you know, and they just move on to whatever else I don't need to get stronger anymore because I did this amount of weight. 

Paul Corsaro  09:55

Right. 

Kris Hampton  09:55

You know, I think that's a big mistake. So injury wise, you mentioned you mentioned injuries in there.

Paul Corsaro  10:04

Yeah, so good form. A lot of the reasons they're accepted forms for certain movements such as say, take a deadlift, for example. 

Kris Hampton  10:12

Yep.

Paul Corsaro  10:13

Good form and deadlift at the very base. I mean, you can dive, we could have a three hour podcast about deadlift. Sure, you had a really great one with Steve and Charlie, about deadlift technique, that's a great one. Check it out, if you haven't listened to it. But um, basic deadlift technique from a very broad brush, you want to hinge with your hips, reach back your hips, keep your back straight, you're not arching or flexing extensively in either direction, and wedging your hips through the ground to stand up. Basic deadlift form. Mechanically, it's not the most efficient way to pick it up. But because it's inefficient, inefficient doesn't mean not safe, inefficient, requires you and your body to generate enough tension to get it off the ground. Where the more efficient way to get it off the ground yet you have to generate, you don't have to generate as much tension. But you're gonna flex at your lumbar spine, you may lose your shoulder packing.

Kris Hampton  11:06

Right.

Paul Corsaro  11:07

You may squat it, and yet.

Kris Hampton  11:09

You're gonna bend a bunch at your knees.

Paul Corsaro  11:11

And just Sure, you may get up that one time, but I'll take one rep done well bending where I'm supposed to and not bending where I'm not supposed to. Then 10 reps bending where I'm not supposed to. And

Kris Hampton  11:25

yeah, for sure.

Paul Corsaro  11:26

Blowing out a disk.

Kris Hampton  11:27

 So the so the goal isn't the weight. 

Paul Corsaro  11:30

Right.

Kris Hampton  11:30

 What you're saying the goal is to do a good hinge pattern with a sufficient amount of resistance. 

Paul Corsaro  11:39

Absolutely. And we, I, I, I'm, I make it very obvious that I'm a big fan of kettlebells. They're not the only tool. But one of the things I really like about kettlebells is there big jumps in weight. So usually four to eight kilograms and a jump that's a boards of around 16 pounds ish. I'm not that great at math.

Kris Hampton  12:00

But yeah me neither.

Paul Corsaro  12:02

So you're forced to work with the same weight for a long amount of time. Like, you're not throwing a little two and a half pound plate at the end of the bar and trying to do a little bit more you really forced to own the movement. 

Kris Hampton  12:12

Yep.

Paul Corsaro  12:12

You know, dial in some of the more subtle, subtle aspects of that movement. And over time, you put in a lot of reps, a lot of movements with a certain weight, and then you're able to access that new weight, but it kind of curtails the, hey, what's the next step? How am I to add a little bit more weight? How am I...

Kris Hampton  12:28

 yeah, totally, because you're gonna, you know, if you're trying to Turkish get ups with 16 pounds more than what you just struggled on. You're probably gonna drop it on your face.

Paul Corsaro  12:37

And no one wins in that situation. 

Kris Hampton  12:38

Yeah, yeah. Nobody.

Paul Corsaro  12:40

Best case scenario is you're going to the hospital.

Kris Hampton  12:42

Yeah. And, you know, that's something that kind of threw me off when I first got involved with kettlebells was how was that big jump in weight, because I came from that, like high school weightlifting background where you're trying to add a pound on each week to your benchpress, you know, and it really threw me off. But it what it did was forced me to really focus on making really owning that bell, like you put it and making my form absolutely perfect. And then once I, once I was going down that rabbit hole, it became obvious how applicable to climbing, keeping good formulas. You know, and I think that's hugely important. Even you know, even if you don't want to listen to the, you're going to hurt yourself, or anything else as a climber. Really, that's the the best transfer you're gonna get is by focusing on that form. You know, and you and I were just talking about Josh Waitzkin, and his concept of smaller circles, making smaller circles. Talk to me about that, how it relates to form and really dialing in your form.

Paul Corsaro  14:03

So, Josh Waitzkin, wrote a book called The Art of Learning that was super influential, and how I kind of view training as a whole. It's a great book, you should check it out if you are interested in stuff like this. 

Kris Hampton  14:14

Yeah. Nate and I both recommend that book all the time.

Paul Corsaro  14:17

 It's, it's incredible. Um, so making smaller circles, it takes a movement, skill, anything really, we'll just look at the deadlift, again, just because we'll kind of stay consistent with our examples.

Kris Hampton  14:29

Aand that's the one people know nowadays, right? Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  14:31

So you know, you've got your basic circle that I lift the weight off the ground. Now, let's take it a little bit deeper. Did I reach back to my hips? Was I driving through my hips? Okay, I did that. Let's make the circle a little bit smaller. Was I driving through my heels or was a rocking into my, the balls of my feet? Even make make the circle a little bit smaller? Was I feeling my whole foot instead of just pushing with my heels? 

Kris Hampton  14:54

Right.

Paul Corsaro  14:54

I mean, you can just kind of get deeper and deeper but this act of drawing smaller circles around zeroing in on different facets of movement really help you be mindful about your movement technique, and how you're performing a movement instead of just worrying about the end result. And by being mindful of the subtle nuances of a movement, you learn a lot of lessons that way. And a lot of these lessons you can apply to something wildly different than what you're doing at the time. And all these lessons and skills you learn in concepts that you can take. concepts are a lot better than just a movement, they can apply to different things. And a lot of concepts are kind of hidden at first. So by zeroing in and focusing on subtle details, there's always something more to learn.

Kris Hampton  15:44

Yeah, that that's interesting, like you look at the look at the little minor details, and that might open up the bigger picture. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a, that's an interesting way to look at it. And, and I think you're right, and that's the, that's at the heart of it. For me, that's where strength training and climbing really overlap. You know, I know people do it because they want to get stronger. But I think it's also a really great way to learn how to make smaller circles, in a, in a less complicated environment than rock climbing.

Paul Corsaro  16:21

Absolutely. And especially when you're training by yourself, or even a gym, you're kind of working your own your own routine, there's other people doing stuff, it's way different than working on a boulder where there's 15, other people either waiting their turn, or watching you or yelling at you to breathe or something like that. And you can take the mental skills of dialing into your movement and seeing where you can improve just a little bit more. And once you've got because everything takes reps, lifting weights, you got to put the reps in picking the bar up,

Kris Hampton  16:48

Yep.

Paul Corsaro  16:48

 Climbing, you got to get the reps in climbing and doing these movements. But you got to get mental reps of practicing the abstract skill behind that of being aware of how you're moving and findings, finer details in your movement. So by being able to perform those mental repetitions of making smaller circles, and, uh, like you said, a less complicated environment, it can be easier to do that in a performance environment, or your outside climate with your friends, or you're trying your project and you're getting frustrated, you can kind of switch gears and think back more on making smaller circles instead of worrying about the end result. And getting mad cuz you did the same thing three times in a row and you're pntting off boulders in 

Kris Hampton  17:29

Which all of us do.

Paul Corsaro  17:31

Yep 100%.

Kris Hampton  17:32

 And truly, it's things like, you know, refining the Turkish get-up, you know, when I whenever I program in Turkish get-ups, I always start my summary of that workout with treat the Turkish get-up like a difficult boulder problem. Like you need to learn every little part of it. Make every little part perfect. before you're able to do the whole thing. 

Paul Corsaro  17:56

Absolutely. 

Kris Hampton  17:57

And, and just like a boulder problem, you can, you can do the first half of Turkish get-up great. And then the second half might fall shit. And that's okay. Because you're still learning. 

Paul Corsaro  18:08

Right.

Kris Hampton  18:08

 You know, and that's something that's really, I was really impressed by watching you, coach, a couple of weeks ago, one of our clients, Chris came into town. And, and you coached him through a session with kettlebells. And one of the things I was both surprised by and impressed by was that you definitely dug into the technique. But even when it was obvious to me that there were still some technique flaws that I might have gotten wrapped up in. You just made the concept clear that we just have to keep improving this, and then you would good job and you'd move on. But you made it clear to him that that form and technique is this ever evolving thing.

Paul Corsaro  18:55

Yeah. You're never truly. You're never truly done learning a movement.

Kris Hampton  19:00

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think we need to beat ourselves up over. Oh, my form was bad. That would suck that wouldn't count. You know, it's nothing like that. And and when I'm coaching from now on, I don't need to harp on every little problem because, frankly, just like on a boulder problem, you can't learn 12 things at once. You can't do it while you're lifting either. 

Paul Corsaro  19:24

Yeah. And as a coach, I used to do that. Like I was the number one. I guess, proponent of, Hey, we got to do this perfect. And hey, you did this rep. You need to fix this, this, this, this and this, and I just realized people would shut down, like? 

Kris Hampton  19:40

Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  19:41

They either shut down instead to think about too much or they felt they were just bad at it. I mean, that'll happen. You'll see people get real negative real quick. If there's like, Oh, I did all these things wrong. And when you you know, you go into some with a negative mindset, it's really hard to get something positive out of it. And I've just found I've had a lot more success, just maybe backing off a little bit. Just doing a couple reps and just you know, zeroing in fixing the big stuff first, you know, you know, focus on this big underlying concept. Okay, that's pretty good. Here's how we can make it a little bit better. And it's never like, Hey, you did this wrong. You need to fix this, like, Hey, we need to make this just how do you make it a little bit better? How do you refine it that 1%? 

Kris Hampton  20:18

Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  20:18

Get a little bit better each time?

Kris Hampton  20:20

Yeah, totally. It's a it's a never ending process, really. And I've kind of battled with this idea. for quite a while now. Partially, because I'm, I'm my, I'm my own devil's advocate a lot of the time, you know, I think that's how I'm able to be successful and things is because I challenge myself and with this remote training of often questioned, should I be asking people to do these things if I don't know they're doing them perfectly. But then the other side of me is like, Well, you know what, when you were learning to lift, you didn't have a clue if you were doing everything perfectly. And there's a lot more resources out there now to learn than there was back then. Yeah, you know, they can just google it from wherever they're working out. 

Paul Corsaro  21:08

Internet's pretty cool.

Kris Hampton  21:09

 And we provide videos and descriptions and everything else. So So on one side, I feel okay with it. On the other side, I'm like, I don't know if I should be doing this, you know, but, but watching you coach that way, and, and just instilling that it's a process that you should keep thinking about. That makes me feel quite a bit better about asking people to do some, frankly, simple things. And as long as they're not hurting themselves, and then there's something you say pretty often, I've heard you say to Annalissa, when she was talking about swings, Is it hurting your back? And she said no. And you were like, well, then you're doing it Right. 

Paul Corsaro  21:50

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  21:50

We could probably fix it. We can make it a little better. But you're doing it right.

Paul Corsaro  21:54

Yeah. And yeah, outside of like the main kind of Cardinal, I guess, probably the biggest cardinal rule in strength training, looking at the whole body is don't flex or extend your spine, your your lower back your lumbar spine underload. 

Kris Hampton  22:10

Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  22:10

If you can keep that stable, you can build off of that. But if something's hurting, or you're loading your back, super flexed or extended more than you can handle and like, you know, I'm talking and thinking as I talk, and of course, there's always exceptions to every rule.

Kris Hampton  22:25

Like the Jefferson Curl. 

Paul Corsaro  22:26

That's exactly what popped into my head.

Kris Hampton  22:27

Coach Summers made popular. Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  22:29

Yeah. And it's a really good exercise, you got to be very careful with it. 

Kris Hampton  22:33

Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  22:34

I, yeah, it's a really good exercise, you got to be careful with it. And there's obviously exceptions to every rule. But when I train people, I really like to keep a stable spine, I don't like to load it. And that's my Cardinal. I guess my Cardinal guideline for almost every strength movement I do, whether it's an overhead press, because you've seen those people pressing overhead, you get, they get that crazy arch in the back, they throw their hips forward. And you I mean, if you think about, you've got all that weight coming down on top of your spinal column, and if your lower spine, your lower backs in front of your upper back, all that pressure is coming down in the back back your vertebrae, stressing those discs. But yeah, so once you can control your spine, and move right around without relying on the support of pressing vertebrae together, and it's not hurting your good, then it's time to start refining and getting a little bit better.

Kris Hampton  23:22

Yeah, yeah, even you know, that brings me to another idea, you know, the thought of this Jefferson curl and being in somewhat of a compromised position while you're training. You know, when it comes to climbing, things like the closed crimp, you know, it's, it's popular, and I'm guilty of saying that you shouldn't train in a closed crimp position. And I think for most people, that's true. But I've trained in a closed crimp position, because it's a weakness of mine, I'm not good at crimping down on things. So so I need to train that to get better at it. But I do it really, really carefully. 

Paul Corsaro  23:59

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  24:00

 And, you know, like coach summers pointed out in the Tim Ferriss Podcast, where I was first introduced to the Jefferson Curl was that you're going to get into that compromised position. If you're a high level gymnast, you're gonna end up in that position.

Paul Corsaro  24:15

Right.

Kris Hampton  24:15

 So why not train and, you know, gradually load that position so that you can, you can withstand it once you're there. You know, and I think that's a super important thing to note is that a it has to be super gradual. And it has to be specific to you. 

Paul Corsaro  24:36

Right.

Kris Hampton  24:36

 You know, not everybody needs to be doing Jefferson curls. And not everyone needs to be closed crimping when they train.

Paul Corsaro  24:43

 I agree. And yeah, especially when I think about how I strength train a lot of rock climbers. And if you watch people rock, climb, the core and spine, stay pretty straight, for the most part when you're climbing. If you've got the adequate mobility in your hips, if you're hips are super tight, you're gonna have to compensate somewhere else. But, you know, ideally, you want to keep the limit movement through your midsection. So ideally, I would stay out of training the spine, and, you know, flex for extended positions, 

Kris Hampton  25:13

Right.

Paul Corsaro  25:13

 For a climber, and also a lot of the strength training I do for climbers, I really like to view as supplementary because, you know, you're going to get better at climbing and make the biggest improvements in climbing by rock climbing. 

Kris Hampton  25:24

Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  25:24

So I will never tell someone they need to, you know, skip out on a climbing skill practice day to you know, you need to deadlift more weight, or you need to do some weighted pull ups, like...

Kris Hampton  25:33

Right there, you know, again, they're always outliers. And as soon as you said, I would never tell someone that it was really funny, because I just wrote into someone's plan, even if you have to skip the climbing day, make sure you get these. But it's a client of mine who I've worked with for a long time, who we know that general overall body strength is his limiting factor.

Paul Corsaro  25:57

Okay.

Kris Hampton  25:58

He's a really good rock climber is just his overall body strength is the limiting factor. But for most people, that's not the case, your technique is probably not good enough, that you're even, you're even using the strength that you currently have available.

Paul Corsaro  26:15

 Right.

Kris Hampton  26:16

You know, so getting stronger may not necessarily be the answer. 

Paul Corsaro  26:20

If you can...

Kris Hampton  26:20

If everyone could continue to getting stronger, for sure. No question about that. But it doesn't need to be your main focus is what you're saying,

Paul Corsaro  26:27

Right. Because if you can only access a portion of your reserve of strength.

Kris Hampton  26:31

Right.

Paul Corsaro  26:32

 Because your techniques kind of that gatekeeper that window,s only kind of, that Windows only a quarter of the way open. It doesn't matter how much the area behind that window, how big that is, 

Kris Hampton  26:40

Right.

Paul Corsaro  26:41

You only get through that quarter, like your techniques can open that window more, you'll be able to have access to that a lot better.

Kris Hampton  26:46

Yeah, totally. Totally. Man, there was just something I was thinking about, oh, yeah, we were talking about compromised positions and training in those training in those compromised positions. And that brought up another thought you and I actually had a conversation about this last winter. And it's it was our conversation was surrounding some posts that our friend, friend of the Power Company, Natasha Barnes had posted. And, and I was just trying to make sense of things in my head. And she posts a lot about how you should be training in these correct postures and correct positions. And the thing that really got me thinking was a post about a resting position, you should be resting in this position. And I was like, I've never rested in my life in that position. And I'm really good at resting. So this is bullshit. But then when I talk to you about it, I started to make a little more sense that, that you're, it's a good idea to train in those positions. And then, when athletes perform, almost across the board, you know, whether it's weight lifters or football players or whatever, they almost always go into compromising positions. So if I'm on redpoint, and, and I need to, you know, I can't hold the square, you know, shoulders back position for resting, and I need to sag on to my connective tissue to get some back. That's what I'm gonna do. You know, but I think training that training to be better at that position, is what Natasha was getting at. And what you sort of explained to me, am I yeah, looking at that the right way now?

Paul Corsaro  28:44

 Absolutely. If you find think about...

Kris Hampton  28:45

By the way, shout out Natasha.

Paul Corsaro  28:46

Yeah, for sure. Great stuff. Um, if you think about performance versus training training is very controlled setting where you're trying to get better and improve the qualities you have that you can utilize in a performance situation. And in a performance situation. All the rules are out the window, like you want to get to the top of the climb, you want to top out the boulder, or you want to clip the chains on the anchor. Power lifter wants to deadlift, an insane amount of weight and you watch videos of some super high level power lifters, deadlifting a lot of weight and you know, some of them are ugly, but they still get a good lift at the end. And one, for the most part one lift with a little bit sketchy form. If you're successful, it doesn't hurt awesome. You did it. You put down move on to the next way, continue your competition. Say you're at a rest, you're hanging off your shoulders, I can, you're not going to get hurt, but you recover more than trying to keep your lats pack your shoulders down. You're saving energy and you go and clip the chains. That's the goal. 

Kris Hampton  29:46

Right. 

Paul Corsaro  29:46

But in training where you can be a lot more control in your movements and really focus on good technique. And you're doing these repetitions and training a lot more than you're doing in a performance setting. You're resting more in a performance setting. You know, lifters it's one attempt, you're not doing a set of five.

Kris Hampton  30:03

Right.

Paul Corsaro  30:04

And the difference in the the load is just exponential there.

Kris Hampton  30:08

Yeah, no doubt.

Paul Corsaro  30:09

 So obviously, doing something poorly 20 times is going to be a problem. The probability of getting hurt is much higher there than doing it one time. And you'll be trained to get better at performance. So yeah, do what you need to do to be successful. But when you can control your training, you can get stronger in these a more mechanically inefficient positions to build that strength. So you can be more efficient. You know, you're resting, so but yeah.

Kris Hampton  30:39

Totally.

Paul Corsaro  30:40

 It's a exactly yet. Being mechanically inefficient, forces you to create more tension and keep everything stronger and safer. 

Kris Hampton  30:49

Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  30:50

So you can afford to be inefficient, you can afford to be more efficient when you're trying to actually do the task. 

Kris Hampton  30:56

Right, right. And if I get better at that, you know, what, what might be more mechanically inefficient. If I get better at that position through training, and it's a safer position, then chances are on you know, three of the rests on my mega edge. I can, I can keep that safer position. And it's just at the last rest, where I need to go into that less safe position to get back what I need. And then I finished the route just like a power lifter, deadlifting. One, somewhat sloppy rep.

Paul Corsaro  31:32

Yeah, just getting up. And do you think about at a rest, especially in the climbing rest, you're shaking out, the last thing you really want to be thinking about is Oh, I need to keep my lats tight. I need to breathe, get your heart rate down, get ready for the next section, rock climbing.

Kris Hampton  31:44

Yeah, that's why I was having trouble with Natasha's posts in my head, because I just, you know, I'm like, I would never do that. I can't imagine ever doing that. But I was also looking at it from the, through the lens of someone who's trained endurance extensively, and almost never rests while I'm training anymore. 

Paul Corsaro  32:05

Right.

Kris Hampton  32:05

You know. So when I looked at a resting position, I'm like, that's, that's a position I only see in performance. And I would never think about that. And that, but I get it now.

Paul Corsaro  32:15

And that's an interesting point, too, because there's been a lot of kind of discussion about the same kind of shoulder position and hanging, too. 

Kris Hampton  32:23

Right, right. 

Paul Corsaro  32:24

So like hangboard training and finger training about shoulder position, I completely agree you should keep your shoulders down and pack when you're hanging. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Kris Hampton  32:33

Yep. Yeah, totally. And, and there are going to be times when, you know, let's look at campusing, for example, there are, you don't want a campus where you hit, you hit the next rung, and you're your shoulder, you just land on your connective tissue...

Paul Corsaro  32:50

Shoulder goes past your ear. 

Kris Hampton  32:51

Yeah, you don't want that to happen when you're campusing. But it's going to happen on a route or boulder problem, most likely, the key is you're trying to get better at doing it in a controlled way. So that you can then apply that controlled way to your performance time. So that there's, that's less likely that's going to happen while you're outperforming we're trying to train so we can be better at this for a long time, right? Not, just so we can do the next boulder problem.

Paul Corsaro  33:22

I think the majority of climbers out there would like to continue climbing for the rest of their life. I know I would.

Kris Hampton  33:26

Yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  33:28

But um, it's, it's one of my favorite quotes, it's kind of over the top. But being strong makes you harder to kill. But going back on that, you know, strength training correctly, makes you more resilient. And so, you know, keeping proper alignment, when you're training helps you be more resilient and not just kind of explode everywhere. The second you get out of alignment in a performance setting.

Kris Hampton  33:51

Totally. So back on, you know, people sort of self coaching, are there things people can think about, while they're, you know, just trying to keep good form themselves, just in general, it doesn't have to be on a specific exercise just concepts or ideas that people should watch out for.

Paul Corsaro  34:15

I would always try and keep some core tension and think about really driving, especially on the lifts where you're picking the weight off the ground or squatting or something like that, less about standing up with the weight and more about pushing the ground away. Because a lot of times people will subconsciously think about a deadlift, we'll just keep using that example. If I want to pick the weight up, I'm gonna arch my back just because I want to get it off the ground and get my head as far away from the ground as possible...

Kris Hampton  34:42

Right.

Paul Corsaro  34:42

Is gonna make us feel like we're getting the weight up higher, but we're really getting into that threatening position we talked about before. Well, if we think about I'm going to keep everything tight and strong in my upper body and just push the ground away. You can be much more likely to keep your spine straight, generate the force to the muscle groups. Want to develop by training the deadlift instead of relying on more of our stabilizers and compensating through that. And then just trying to keep some core tension when we're lifting? 

Kris Hampton  35:09

That's what I was about to ask, do you suggest keeping the core tight through all lifts?

Paul Corsaro  35:16

For the most part, Yes. Again, there's always exceptions. But yes, I'd say that. And instead of really thinking about squeezing my abs, I like to think about, you know, contracting my glutes squeezing my glutes together, because that leads to a greater activation in your core. When I'm doing an overhead press, trying to crush the handle of the bell, or the bar, just that concept of irradiation, the more attention we can generate throughout our entire body. Everything's going to contract a lot tighter, much stronger.

Kris Hampton  35:42

Yeah, totally. And I had a funny conversation with my friend Les, who's whose dining room we're sitting in recording right now. So thanks less for letting us use your house. And he, I've been working with les for a little while. And one of the core workouts I have been doing includes some bird dog crunches, and he was doing them with his, his girlfriend Kuleana. And he was like, battling it out. And she's just like, she just cruising through them, like, are these hard for you like, what's the problem? And what the difference was, is les really took to heart the idea of keeping your core super tight and making everything really controlled and tight rather than just, let's see how many of these I can do. Yeah. And Kuleana was still in that mindset of, I'm going to relax everything else as much as possible and just do this motion. 

Paul Corsaro  36:42

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  36:42

You know, sort of, I don't know aerobics style or something. And, you know, I think that's a big mistake that people make in there. Maybe it's not exactly form, but maybe it is. And, like with planks, I think are a really great example.

Paul Corsaro  36:57

I agree completely in what I'm looking for in a plank is you know, obviously cardinal rule, keeping that back straight. A lot of people will say I can hold a plank for five minutes, and you watch them hold their plank, and after 10 seconds, they look like a you their their bellies sagging to the ground.

Kris Hampton  37:12

They thing because they haven't fallen that they're still holding.

Paul Corsaro  37:14

Right. And if you can hold a plank longer than 15 seconds, you need to try harder, you need to try and pull your elbows to your toes. Try and compress the ground between those elbows and toes. Squeeze your butt as hard as you can. 

Kris Hampton  37:25

Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  37:26

And that'll feel way different. crush your fist, too. That's another really good one that people don't think about. Squeeze your hands together as hard as you possibly can. That's going to lead to greater tension generated through the rest of the body. And that plank is going to feel a lot different if you haven't tried that.

Kris Hampton  37:40

Yep. And that's all sort of based on Pavel's. At least that's where I first heard of irradiation.

Paul Corsaro  37:48

Yeah, those hardstyle tension techniques.

Kris Hampton  37:50

Yeah, yeah, we use. We use a lot of these irradiation techniques in our climbing drills. Specifically for tension. So let's just talk about irradiation for a second, just so if people think they, you know, have really dialed in this move, or this exercise, and they're like, Oh, my, you know, my form is the best it could ever be. I need to step up and wait. I think irradiation is a good thing to start thinking about because it can make that exercise feel a hell of a lot harder. 

Paul Corsaro  38:23

Absolutely.

Kris Hampton  38:25

 And it can, you know, produce more force. I think you just do as soon as you start practicing it. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Paul Corsaro  38:33

So yeah, irradiation. So in that plank, we're talking about squeezing, just making this tight as fast as possible. In a press, thinking about when you're pressing the bell or bar overhead, let's just take a Kettlebell, for example. So we're doing a one arm press, I'm pressing the bar, the bell with my right hand, I'm trying to crush the handle of the bell into dust with my right hand. But also with my left hand, I'm making that fist as well. 

Kris Hampton  38:56

Right. So what's the theory behind this why, why do it?

Paul Corsaro  38:59

It's a nervous system thing by trying to generate as much hands through your much as much force to your hands, that's gonna travel up alita better contraction of rotator cuff muscles. And it's kind of a feet forward mechanism. So if you're trying to generate more tension somewhere, other than where you're trying to lift because obviously, with the part of your body you're trying to do the actual exercise with even though we want to focus on form a lot. Subconsciously, we want to be successful in the lift. So really conscious about generating as much tension somewhere else, that's gonna feed forward into more tension on the working appendage. And it's kind of interesting, cuz there's studies that have shown even when people are injured and they can't, you know, say, say you've blown out your right shoulder and you can't lift with your with that hand with that arm that's hurt. Strength training, the other arm will lead to a nervous system, increase in strength on the injured arm.

Kris Hampton  39:52

Yeah, I've heard this before.

Paul Corsaro  39:54

The body is connected, so trying to treat the body as just the Frankenstein approach where it's just multiple parts. Just kind of stitched together, you could be missing out on a lot of opportunities to get stronger in, in situations where you can't.

Kris Hampton  40:08

Yeah, I think so for sure, yeah. And you know, Pavel does a really good job of explaining it that that sort of made, it makes sense to me. And this is the description I use for a lot of my clients that, you know, if you, it's all about, all the muscles are connected, and, you know, creating force in one muscle is gonna help the force in the next one. And if, for instance, if you're trying to make a fist and squeeze your fist as hard as you can, and let unless you're starting to flex your forearm, and then starting to flex your bicep and starting to flex your shoulder and then it goes down into your pec and your lats, and less all those things get tight, you're still not making the tightest fist you can.

Paul Corsaro  40:50

Right.

Kris Hampton  40:51

You know, and I think that that just applies to whatever. And if you use that as part of your training, you're inevitably going to get stronger.

Paul Corsaro  41:00

Absolutely. And a good example of that outside of training, think about when you're trying to open a jar that's stuck together. Think about what you naturally do you squeeze the lid you don't stand straight up, and you're relaxed everywhere else.

Paul Corsaro  41:12

 Other than cussing you mean?

Paul Corsaro  41:14

Well, yeah, of course, you gotta let those words fly. But yeah, you're hunched over that thing. And you're using your whole body to open that your shoulders are tight, you're digging your feet into the ground. So it's, it's really helpful to generate a lot of force by focusing on the whole body as a unit instead of just the respective parts that you may think are doing all the work because they're not.

Kris Hampton  41:35

Yeah, maybe that's all we need as a strength training tool, or just really tightly jars. Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  41:41

It'd be something fun to play around with.

Kris Hampton  41:44

 Yeah, so I, you know, and I, we, we apply that to climbing, because that's how climbing moves work. You know, if, if you're trying the hardest boulder problem you've ever done. Your, your whole body is tired in three or four moves, you know? And that's because you're not trying to hold a five minute long plank. 

Paul Corsaro  42:08

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  42:08

Yyou know, you can't be sloppy and relax, and still expect the hardest move you've ever done to work. 

Paul Corsaro  42:15

It's not going to

Kris Hampton  42:16

So you have to get good at being super tight all the time and being and being able to engage all these muscles while remaining in good form. Yeah, to make hard moves work. 

Paul Corsaro  42:29

Yep.

Kris Hampton  42:30

 And that's why we practice it strength training.

Paul Corsaro  42:32

Yep. And there's that those are all great examples of where we really want to, you know, generate as much force as we can really just try and almost overkill the force. There's one example where I'd probably because it is important to keep that kind of mid level tension. So like, you know, when we're trying to walk, we're not trying to squeeze everything as hard. 

Kris Hampton  42:48

Right, right. Right, right.

Paul Corsaro  42:49

 Yeah, and carries are a great example to kind of practice that, you know, we're not keeping the hips line, keeping some gentle tension through the core. 

Kris Hampton  42:56

Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  42:56

And just, you know, working through our gate and keeping everything aligned. And, you know, we don't have to hold her breath and crush the other fist and squeeze as hard as we can to walk with something. But for the most part, when you're lifting, you want to overkill with the tension.

Kris Hampton  43:12

Yeah, and I'm glad you just said, "hold your breath," because that's kind of the next level, I think, of practicing irradiation through something like hardstyle plank, you know, I try to get people to once they feel like they're doing a good job of tensing up everything, almost across the board, they're holding their breath, you know, and then then I cue them to breathe, you know, try to breathe through those 10 seconds of holding this hardstyle plank, and it's a lot harder than the sounds. Do you feel like breathing is a part of good form? Where does that fall? 

Paul Corsaro  43:48

Absolutely. So breathing correctly, using your diaphragm, pulling that diaphragm down, which allows the lung, lungs to inflate by creating that negative pressure in the lungs. That's how it should breathe. A lot of times, this is one of my big assessment points when someone comes in is to have them just take a breath. And more often than not, you'll see the shoulders raise, you'll see the traps activate. And it'll breathe in what seems to be their chest.

Kris Hampton  44:12

 Right. 

Paul Corsaro  44:14

And that's indicated, that indicates some, I don't want to say core dysfunction, but maybe just some basic motor patterning that can be fixed really quick, or it might be really hard for people to do that. But if we're using our diaphragm to breathe correctly, that means our diaphragm and pelvic floor are facing each other. And that makes sure our midsection is aligned. A lot of times you're breathing up above or you're expanding in your chest, your ribs flare out, and now you don't have that pressurized canister kind of stabilized through your mid section.

Kris Hampton  44:44

Right. 

Paul Corsaro  44:45

But, so once you've got that down, so just going back to basic breathing, being able to do that, right, adding that to any core exercise, that's just gonna make it so much more applicable to everything else, and you're gonna be a lot safer and you're being a lot stronger. If you're holding your breath. Do something you're kind of trying to survive through that movement.

Kris Hampton  45:02

 Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  45:02

You're not really adapting to that movement, Greg Koch says that if you're holding your breath, you're just trying to survive a movement, or you don't own that movement. So yeah, how cue the plank. It's a, that's how I do a lot of my core exercises. I don't necessarily use time, I'll do it for breath. Like, hey, you're gonna hold this plank for five breaths.

Kris Hampton  45:22

Yep, that's a lot of the core Ebook that Nate and I are working on. We're working with breaths. And 

Paul Corsaro  45:27

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  45:28

 And that was a new concept for me. And I really dig it.

Paul Corsaro  45:30

It's gone. Actually, I got that from my, the guy I work with at Scenic City Strength and Fitness, Matt Greene, he's been a mentor mentor to me in a lot of ways. And that was the first time I'd ever seen that. And then as I started learning more just it makes so much sense to me. And then you can use that as a way to even generate more tension by once you've got that basic breathing down, you can hold a plank, you know, generating that tension breathing correctly into your abdomen. Every time you exhale, blow, exhale longer than you think you can, because you've got more air in there, you'll feel your abs tighten up, you'll feel that tension rise. And then the goal will be to try and keep that tension. And try and breathe behind that. And every time you exhale, just try and ratchet up that tension a little more. 

Kris Hampton  46:09

Okay.

Paul Corsaro  46:09

And after five breaths, you'll be squeezing a lot harder than you think you could have. If you just yeah, I'm squeezing as hard as I can. I'm generating that tension. Okay, breathe and ratchet it up each breath.

Kris Hampton  46:20

Yep. And I think I think practicing that while you're training is is a good way to not get into unhealthy stressful breathing while you're performing. 

Paul Corsaro  46:31

Absolutely.

Kris Hampton  46:32

 You know, and, and breathing is a huge part of your performance. It's a huge part of how strong you feel how strong you are. You know, are there specific ways people should? Like, is there a way to simplify how they're breathing? Is it in through the nose out through the mouth? Is it you know, I don't know what's?

Paul Corsaro  46:51

W we're working on, you know, trying to reprogram a breathing pattern that needs a little bit of work, all that people lay on the ground, put their forehead on the back of their hands,..

Kris Hampton  47:01

Okay. 

Paul Corsaro  47:01

So when they inhale they'll...

Kris Hampton  47:03

So their face down on the ground?

Paul Corsaro  47:04

Yes. yes.

Kris Hampton  47:05

Okay.

Paul Corsaro  47:05

 So when they breathe in, they want to try and feel their belly push into the ground. So that's the first step of feeling that and it is easier. If you really think about breathing in through your nose instead of your mouth, and then exhaling through your mouth that just, it gets more diaphragm action that way, subconsciously, you don't have to think about Okay, how do I do this? It just, it seems to work a lot better for a lot of people.

Kris Hampton  47:26

And I once heard, I was listening to a podcast about breathing and, and this the woman I can't recall her name, said that. If you breathe in through your mouth, it almost always feels stressful. 

Paul Corsaro  47:42

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  47:42

And if you breathe in through your nose, it feels relaxing. And I don't know if it's just because she told me that, that that's how I feel when I try it. But it totally is like it feels more more panicked when I'm breathing through my mouth. And it feels much more relaxing through my nose.

Paul Corsaro  48:00

And I don't know what the science is behind this. But if you just think about it, and I'm just straight up speculating here.

Kris Hampton  48:05

Sure, sure, we do a lot of that here.

Paul Corsaro  48:07

 I reserve the right to be wrong and change my mind in the future. But if you think about it, if we're breathing through our mouth most times is because we need more air because we're in a stressful situation. So there's a chance you could be hardwired for that where, Hey, you know, I need to run and way back in the past, I need to run away from this lion. Obviously, I'm not going to run with my mouth closed, breathe and deep through my nose. I'm getting as much air in my lungs as possible. 

Kris Hampton  48:28

Yep. 

Paul Corsaro  48:29

So that could be a hardwired thing. Where Hey, I'm taking a big deep breath in my mouth. My body's gonna detect, hey, this could be an issue that we need to go fight or flight. 

Kris Hampton  48:37

Yeah, totally 

Paul Corsaro  48:38

Get that sympathetic, sympathetic nervous system up and go. 

Kris Hampton  48:41

Or it's just because the lady told me that's how I'm gonna feel. 

Paul Corsaro  48:43

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But uh, yeah, that's, that's interesting. So yeah, I really breathing in through the nose is a great way to start. And I mean, you think about, you know, yoga or meditation all the time. How do you, how are you supposed to breathe in that? 

Kris Hampton  48:59

Right.

Paul Corsaro  48:59

It's through the nose. Yeah. And

Kris Hampton  49:01

I totally sideline you though. We're, so we're facedown on the ground? Oh, yeah. Forehead on our backs of our hands breathing through your nose. You should feel it kind of your bellies.

Paul Corsaro  49:12

Yeah, pressing into the ground. And that would be step one. And then eventually, as that gets more and more comfortable. You'd want to start getting that expansion in the sides too.

Kris Hampton  49:21

Okay, like you said canister earlier. 

Paul Corsaro  49:23

Yes. Yes.

Kris Hampton  49:24

 You want to feeling like it's a band all the way around. 

Paul Corsaro  49:26

You want to expand 360 degrees around there. And a lot of one of the systems I used to help train to train a lot of people we call it crocodile breathing. Just because you see crocodiles lay on the ground. 

Kris Hampton  49:39

Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  49:40

Bellies expand.

Kris Hampton  49:41

Yeah, never thought of that. Oh, and that canals breathe way better than you. 

Paul Corsaro  49:45

They do. But um, yeah. So those are the big things. That's a great way to start. Then you can kind of change into different positions, lay on your back, one hand on your chest, one hand on your stomach, and then when you breathe in, you want your stomach handle Move, keeping your chest still that's a great way to kind of tell. Tell and see where...

Kris Hampton  50:06

Yeah. When do you eventually take the same? You know, the same sort of breathing pattern into the movements? Is that the same thing you're looking for? 

Paul Corsaro  50:15

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  50:15

Later on?

Paul Corsaro  50:16

Yeah, absolutely. Especially in core work. When I'm coaching someone, I'm watching how you're doing. Say you're holding a plank for breath. And I'm watching them and seeing where I'm seeing expansion there. 

Kris Hampton  50:25

Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  50:25

And if I see someone either start holding the breath of their shoulder start moving, it's time to maybe cut that exercise. And you're done with that set, because the quality is gone.

Kris Hampton  50:35

Yep. And why does that breathing help? Like, I mean, I think I know where we're back to. But people are going to say, Well, I can do it without breathing that way. You know, I can hold this plank for 10 seconds and squeeze everything and breathe with my mouth. You know, so?

Paul Corsaro  50:57

I think that's outside.

Kris Hampton  50:59

I don't know what that is. Are we being robbed? Is that what's going on here? Les, your house is being robbed. Crazy noises. I don't know if you guys could hear that. Or maybe it was alien Christmas carolers. 

Paul Corsaro  51:11

There you go. 

Kris Hampton  51:12

Yeah. But anyway, what's the point of doing that?

Paul Corsaro  51:17

Do you hold your breath when you rock climb?

Kris Hampton  51:20

Do I? On golden harvest I do. No, I don't think you do. And I think I think that's you know exactly what I'm thinking maybe, to perform your best, you need to breathe your best as well. 

Paul Corsaro  51:33

And training is a way of stressing the body to adapt. And you can control the level of stress in your training, physical stress, mechanical stress. And if you're able to kind of manage that and kind of stress your ability to breathe correctly, you're building up that ability to breathe correctly under stress. So in a performance situation, you don't automatically revert to that fight or flight, stress breathing, or start holding your breath, you're able to kind of breathe a little bit better, keep everything in better alignment and get better core activation through all that. 

Kris Hampton  52:03

Yep. And I've seen you do this multiple times. And I actually was going to try it the other day. And I was like, I can't time this like Paul times it. But on multiple occasions, I've seen someone climbing, they're holding their breath, and you exhale, while you're spotting. You make this big exhale. And that reminds them to breathe. And every single time you've done it, someone notices, oftentimes, it's the climber, when the climbers already noticed it, and they're aware of it, people on the ground start noticing it. And they're like, Oh, you know, that was that was so cool. You breathe. And then she remembered to breathe. Or he you know, I remember a guy coming down off of a boulder the other day. And you did exactly that. And he came down. He was like, Thank you. That was great. You know, I remembered to breathe as soon as you said it. As soon as you breathed, you know. I think that's really cool. That's a that's a cool cue that that maybe people could use, you know, for their friends when they're holding their breath and for themselves. It helps me to breathe. Because I remember that you would be standing down there breathing. Like you would exhale. 

Paul Corsaro  53:13

The first time that happened to me was on a route at the Red River Gorge notoriously bouldery boute Stunning The Hog.

Kris Hampton  53:18

 Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  53:19

 Where you have to try hard pretty much the whole route. Like what 18 moves or something. 

Kris Hampton  53:22

It's short.

Paul Corsaro  53:23

Just boulder, your bouldering. But Cory Hair.

Kris Hampton  53:26

Oh, crazy. 

Paul Corsaro  53:27

I'm trying hard through through through a sequence there. And I just hear him from the ground doing that.

Kris Hampton  53:34

 Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  53:34

 And then I relaxed and started breeding as well. That's awesome. 

Kris Hampton  53:38

That's really interesting.

Paul Corsaro  53:39

And knowing what I know now about how to cue and...

Kris Hampton  53:41

Was he doing it on purpose?

Paul Corsaro  53:43

Yes. He did that to me. I've always done that. So yeah, cool. That's all Cory Her. Thank you Cory.

Kris Hampton  53:48

Good job, Cory. 

Paul Corsaro  53:48

That was back when I was like 19 years old or something like that. And it stuck with me. But...

Kris Hampton  53:53

It's a great technique. And it really, it really shows what breathing can do. Yeah, you know, and shows how easy it is to forget about it. Because until I saw you do it until I recognize that, that that was so effective. Even when I'm coaching I'm not really paying attention to are they holding their breath when they're trying these moves are trying this boulder. But now now I pay much more attention to that. 

Paul Corsaro  54:20

And when you dig into we kind of touched on it a little bit ago, but how breathing is linked to your stress response and your nervous system. 

Kris Hampton  54:27

Yeah. 

Paul Corsaro  54:28

When you stress breathe, you know your breathing up high. That's your sympathetic nervous system, which is that fight or flight response, right? That deep belly breathing, that's more parasympathetic, which is more resting more recovery. So obviously you want to do that deep breathing on a rest on a route so you can get into recovery mode, but also going from a stress aspect because it kind of works both ways. If you're stressed you're going to revert to that breathing, also breathing, the stress breathing. If you stress breathe first, it's going to lead to rising stress, right but also someone screaming at you to breathe isn't the most stress free way to get you remember how to breathe.

Kris Hampton  55:01

Yeah. Annalissa yells at me all the time that I sound panicked. Like, when she's having a hard time when I'm trying to help her I sound panicked. You know, and that's the other day. Annalissa was, you know, working on what, what became her hardest send the next session, but she was like, I need Paul here. I just need Paul here. Like she was not happy with my coaching at all. So. So yeah, you're right, you know that. Definitely. Breathing makes is a big part of your stress level and of your performance and practicing that and making it part of the form that you should be really paying attention to and practicing and your strength training is hugely important.

Paul Corsaro  55:45

Goes back to, you know, little concepts you can pull in one discipline, you can apply to other disciplines. Yeah, very well, that seem wildly unrelated at first, it all connects.

Kris Hampton  55:55

Yeah, just to go back right back to Josh Waitzkin. You know, that's what that that book that we kind of started with, early in this this conversation. The Art of Learning, he's, he's a chess prodigy, he's a push hands, Tai Chi push hands world champion. He's a...

Paul Corsaro  56:13

Jiu Jitsu black belt.

Kris Hampton  56:14

 Jiu Jitsu black belt. He's just a brilliant learner. And that's what his entire book is about taking things and making them concepts that you can apply to a lot of different parts of your life. And that's what that's what we're talking about here the form of strength training. You can apply to climbing, if you do it. Well. 

Paul Corsaro  56:34

Yes. 

Kris Hampton  56:34

You know, and, and I've heard Steve Bechtel, they'll say it. I don't know, who said it first. I know, I've heard it other places. But the way you do one thing is the way you do everything. And I think that's that's a good enough reason, if nothing else, to really pay attention to your form and your strength training.

Paul Corsaro  56:52

 Absolutely. super important.

Kris Hampton  56:53

 Yeah. All right, man. Thanks for sitting down with me again.

Paul Corsaro  56:56

Anytime.

Kris Hampton  57:00

 Man, I feel extremely fortunate to have Paul Corsaro as part of the team. He's Power Company Climbing strength and conditioning coach. He's also a good friend. And I've learned a ton from Paul. And honestly, I think that after listening to this interview, and this conversation, I think that you guys will realize that you've got a lot to learn from Paul as well. So you can find him on the internet's at cruxconditioning.com where he's got a bunch of great blog posts, he does a bullet points and brews every week that pairs, a good beer, which Paul is a beer connoisseur with some of the training things he's been reading on the internet. And honestly, I don't know of a single other person who's as dedicated to learning about the art and science of strength and conditioning as Paul is. So again, I feel really extremely fortunate to have him on board. And if you haven't, and you're interested, check out the kettlebells for climbers ebook that Paul and I put together. We'll also have that available through the app soon. And, and Paul will be coaching strength and conditioning plans through our app as well. Very, very soon. So if you're interested in that, please feel free to hit me up at powercompanyclimbing.com. And, you know, until then, you can share us all over the internet's you can. You can look for us on the Facebook's the Pinterest and the Instagrams. But you won't find us on the Twitter. We don't tweet. We scream like eagles.