Episode 5: Overhauling Your Style with Alli Rainey

In this episode I sit down with Alli Rainey, climbing coach, trainer, writer, and yoga instructor based out of Ten Sleep, Wyoming.  Alli climbed up to 5.14 in her signature style of vertical/technical routes, and then decided to learn how to climb steeper, more gymnastic routes... and had to change her entire approach to training and climbing, not to mention her body type, in order to do so.  

You can find out more about Alli at: www.allirainey.com

She constantly working to develop and advocate for climbing in the Ten Sleep area.  You can find out how to help at www.bighornclimbers.org

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:30

What's up everybody. I'm your host, Kris Hampton. And this is Episode Five of the Power Company Climbing Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Spring is in full swing here in Kentucky, Ohio area. I really thought summer was going to jump in and just take over, it certainly looked that way. But it's held off a little. We just had possibly the best weekend in the Red that I've maybe ever seen there: ridiculously low humidity, great temps, pretty much perfect weather. I was able to squeeze in my third V10 and tuck that under my belt. So now I can move on, back into route mode and feel good about it feeling like have accomplished what I set out to do so. So that's my goal. Right now I'm ramping back up to to route time and big routes. Actually, I'm not much interested in sport climbing right now. I'm gonna do a little of it. But big routes. That's where I'm headed. So I've got to start that training up right now. And speaking of training, that's what we do here, right? So go check out the website powercompanyclimbing.com. Check out our ebooks we just released the Kettlebells for Climbers plan with Paul Corsaro, who you can hear in Episode 4. And that one's doing really well. Kettlebells are actually going to be a big part of my training for bigger routes. Starting tonight, actually. So so yeah, go check those out. Also find us on Facebook, Power Company Climbing and find us on Instagram at powercompanyclimbing all over the interwebs wherever you are, except for Twitter's - we don't, we don't do that. No, Twitter's. What else? Nate and I have got some workshops coming up. Let me check my Google Calendar here, trusty Google Calendar. And the Google Calendar says that our workshops are going to be in Knoxville. First we're going to be at Onsight Climbing Gym for their grand opening. We've got a couple of workshops we're running there. And that's going to be on April 22 and April 23. And then next we will be at Rock Mill Climbing in Akron, Ohio. And that's going to be on May 10 and May 11. We've got a couple of workshops there as well. So if you're interested in private sessions hit us up. We'll be around the area for those few days so we can squeeze you in between the workshops. So hit me up. Okay, today we are talking with Wyoming based climbing coach, writer, yoga teacher, Alli Rainey. I sat down with Alli last summer in Lander, Wyoming. And most of what we talked about was her switch from being a vert techie climber into becoming more interested in steeper, bigger move more gymnastic style climbing, and it's interesting because her home area, Ten Sleep, is largely vert and techie. I'm generalizing there because there's definitely some steep thugginess there as well. But it's been cool to watch Alli's progression in this new style and watch her body change as she embraced how to train for that new style. So now in this discussion, we touch on an injury that Alli had, and we don't really go into depth. So I wanted to just kind of tell you a little bit about it here. Basically, she got a little excited after coming home from the Red, overtrained, and that kind of flared up an old injury she'd had in her hand. And then she took a fall in an airport on her way to Spain to go climbing. And a couple of days later, her hand had swelled up. There was some nerve, some nerve issues. And basically she wasn't able to climb the entire trip to Spain. And you can definitely read more about that on Alli's website, which you can find at allirainey.com It's A-L-I-rainey.com. And of course if you happen to be in the Ten Sleep, Wyoming area, Alli's a fixture out there and she loves to talk shop so don't be shy. One more thing: big shout out to the Big Horn Climbers Coalition. It's bighornclimbers.org you'll be able to find Alli at their trash cleanup in Ten Sleep on April 23, as well as May 21, in Cody, Wyoming, another trash cleanup there. And also at the Ten Sleep Climbing Festival on July 2. So if you want to talk to Alli and you're in the area, don't be shy, go say hello. Alright, on with the show.

Alli Rainey  05:26

But point being, if you do put muscle weight on, and it's sport specific, and you climb better, the numbers on the scale shouldn't matter.

Kris Hampton  05:50

But, but what you have to say is important. So...

Alli Rainey  05:52

Yeah, I and there's lots of free information on my website, which I'd love if, you know, people want to go see more, like, learn more about training. From my perspective, that's completely awesome, you know, cool.

Kris Hampton  06:03

Okay, so I'm sitting here in Lander, Wyoming, during the International Climbers Festival, with a name you all know already, Alli, Rainey. And, Alli, and... I just want to talk to you about, you made a change a few years ago, I guess it's been several years now. Right? 

Alli Rainey  06:22

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  06:23

In your climbing style, and that seems to have affected your body. And, and just it looks like it opened up a whole new world of climbing to you. And I just want to talk about that, because so many people get just trapped in one style of climbing.

Alli Rainey  06:39

Sure, yeah, no. And I definitely fall into that category. I learned to climb on vertical technical crimpy terrain and fell in love with that originally. And, you know, it was fun for me. And I got better at that. And as I did that I ignored steep climbing completely. For better, for worse, for most of my climbing years. So I've been climbing for 23 years, I think it is, and I'd say I spent a good 16-17 of that barely climbing any steep rock at all. And by steep I mean, like, you know, severely overhanging, like, not vertical or gently overhung or whatever. I'd say 45 degrees and roof climbing and like the traditional Madness Cave at the Red or...

Kris Hampton  07:27

Bigger holds, bigger moves, steep climbing,

Alli Rainey  07:30

Pretty much avoiding that and not really developing the technique or strength or anything for that kind of climbing. And, and that was fine. And I actually think there's nothing wrong with that, if that makes you happy. I really think climbing should be about what makes each person as an individual happy. And I have no judgment if somebody loved that climbing. And if I had ended up loving that and doing that for the rest of my life, that would have been fine. But I did start to get tired of it. And I was starting to honestly get a bit burned out on climbing and feeling like not as excited about climbing, period. And I didn't really know where to go with it. And I honestly had never really thought about getting into steep climbing that much. And I think the trip I took to the Red in 2007, watching people climb in the Madness Cave that year, and having fun doing it. I started to think "Man, that looks like so much fun. I wonder if I could ever have fun doing that, you know, and what would it take for me to have fun doing that knowing I have no capability whatsoever to climb that style at all right now." And it but I really had no idea what it would take or what I could do or if I could do that ever, you know, because it was to me it was kind of like starting a new sport or like, you know, opening up a whole new world. And I always think of when Kevin took me, my husband took me, to put me on a steep climb in the New River Gorge. It was like a 12a. And I looked down at him like two bolts up and like I was hanging and I was like, "What do I do?"

Kris Hampton  09:03

Kevin's a masochist. Yeah.

Alli Rainey  09:04

And Kevin's like, "What do you mean, What do I do?" You know, and I was like, "I don't know what to do." Like, I didn't know how to climb this steep climb. I just had no technical like nothing in the world. I just didn't have the body knowledge of what to do, because I'd never really spent any time trying to climb steep routes. And it was just, you know, this whole new world. And so, you know, I don't think I made a conscious decision. Like, I'm going to love steep climbing and I'm going to I'm going to make it my style, because I didn't know what to expect from it. But I think a little door opened like of giving it a chance. You know, when I went and seeing people have fun doing it and sort of having, something must have clicked and I don't even think you'd necessarily verbalize stuff like that to yourself, but just kind of want it. Yeah, I kind of wanted to see if I could work up to that, you know, and I didn't have have a timeframe for it. So I didn't know. I mean, like I said, I didn't know if I could ever get better at that, I really sucked at it, you know? So, like, I had no idea.

Kris Hampton  10:11

I think that's pretty important that you didn't have a time period. Yeah, no timeframe in which you said, I have to be better by this point. Yeah. Because learning new skills like that are such a long process. Yeah, you know, and it takes a long time to really hammer those new movements into your brain and your body. And if you just said, I'm going to give myself three months to get better at steep climbing, you probably woulda went right back to vertical techie climbing, and just had this bitter taste in your mouth about the Red or where ever.

Alli Rainey  10:41

Yeah, or eventually, maybe would have just not wanted to climb at all, or not been as psyched anymore, you know, and just not tried hard anymore, because that's kind of where I'd gotten, where I was, like, just sort of exhausted of trying hard on vertical stuff. And like, like, just not into it anymore. You know, and, and I could feel that sort of love, like, flickering out, in a way. I mean, I feel like, you know, people will be like, "Say it isn't so!" you know, but I mean, that's just the reality, like, I've been doing it for a really long time. Sure. I wasn't really making a lot of progress. And I didn't really know what to do to make progress there. And I wasn't really having that much fun with it anymore. And, you know, in walks steep climbing, and I think, oh, maybe I should give that a shot, you know. And then you have to eat crow seriously, if you're like thinking of yourself as a climber of a certain grade, which I encourage everybody to not think of yourself as a climber of any grade, 

Kris Hampton  10:58

I think that's a common problem.

Kris Hampton  11:32

Right, you've gotta really drop the ego. 

Alli Rainey  11:33

Yeah. And like, I just I had to relearn. I think I'd internalized a lot of the grade. It's just like self-value through grades, you know, in climbing. And I think,

Alli Rainey  11:48

Yeah, I do, too. And I think what this has really rewired in me is that I climb stuff that's hard for me, whether it has the grade attached to it that I wanted to or not, if I like the route, you know, and that was something that was a really freeing thing for me, in learning to climb steep rock, it was like, I like this climb. And so what if the grade is quote, easy, you know, whatever that means. I mean, it's just depends what climbing world you live in. But learning to just be happy, I was actually talking to someone the other day about this, but learning to just be happy with an accomplishment, knowing it was hard for me, was such a big sort of freeing thing. And that, you know, it didn't matter if it was only this grade, you know, and that, you know, feeling like, Oh, it's only this grade, and I've climbed this other grade, so why is it a big deal, but then I look at the style and be like, oh, but I've never climbed anything like this before. And that's a first for me in this style of climbing. And that way, you know, it's a really, it started to be a more fulfilling thing, because I sort of got to rework through all of the grades again, you know. And so in that way, it was a lot faster than trying to, you know, be up towards my limit of my potential, and feel like, I'm just sort of, you know, making those tiny little incremental gains that you make when you're closer to your limit in any sort of given activity. While steep climbing had this expansive, you know, growth in what I could do as I learned the technical parts of it, and that made it really exciting.

Kris Hampton  13:15

Yeah. And that's why we all fall in love with this thing to begin with because you're, you're starting into this new world, you know, you're not moving horizontally anymore. Like you have your whole life. You're you're moving vertically, you have to come up with this whole new set of movements. And, and it's these every day, new challenges, right, you know, and when the challenges become so zeroed in on this one little thing, you know, and that's the only thing you have to to look forward to breaking through. It makes it not nearly as fun.

Alli Rainey  13:47

Exactly. I mean, it was just not as exciting anymore. And and now, like, even now, I mean, you know, I feel like I've been steep climbing for a while now, but not nearly as long as I've been climbing overall. Yeah, it's still just wildly exciting for me, because I'm still learning new things. Like I'm still learning new technical stuff. One thing I really still struggle with is letting go of control because I feel like a lot of the vertical climbing, at least that I've done, involves extremely fine balancey body control, and really precise stabs to really tiny holds and everything needs to be perfect and tight. And if you shift your balance, just wrong or place your foot just wrong. And it's steep climbing, a lot of times I used to think oh, it's just thugging and whatever, you're just wild, but it's really technical,

Kris Hampton  14:32

Very much so. 

Alli Rainey  14:33

but you are swinging and it can be wild and it's like being okay with that technical, that that that's technical to me, but it's still this wild out of control thing that I've had to learn to be okay with and I still honestly struggle with not not controlling those fine tuned movements and letting the swing and letting everything take me, but when I do I think it's really fun. Yeah, because it's exciting and new to me still, you know, so I'd like routes with big crazy dynos and or wild swinging momentum moves where you have to keep your momentum going through stuff because I, I struggle with it. And I like that, you know, I like that challenge. I want to master that, that sense of swinging wild movement and, and be okay with it. Or maybe I never will be. Maybe it'll just always be exciting and giggly and I'll fall half the time and think it's funny. I don't know.

Kris Hampton  15:23

You know, I just talked to Carlo Traversi recently, and we talked about learning to climb more dynamically, and it being extremely controlled just as much as style. Yeah, you know, and, and he referred to that type of movement where you have to keep your momentum going as coordination, dynamic climbing. Yeah. And I think that's really important to to look at is that it's not just wild movement, you're, you're being coordinated. You're being aware, you're moving your body through space in a specific way exactly how you would if you were still attached to the rock. 

Alli Rainey  15:58

Exactly. 

Kris Hampton  15:59

You know. And I think people might gloss over that sometimes and look at it, like, oh, Chris Sharma just jumps and flies. Yeah. So should we.

Alli Rainey  16:06

Well, and that's kind of, you know, I mean, I think I'd fallen into that mindset of thinking, Oh, that's what it you know, that is, yeah, that's just thuggie it's just, you know, there's not a lot not really technical and some, for some reason, thinking that like thuggy meant, like inferior or something. I don't I don't know what I was thinking. You know, I think we tend to just like try to validate what we choose to do. Because, you know, everybody, I think a lot of people, tend to want everybody to love what it is they love, you know, and share in that love. And like I said, I think there I have no judgment if if if somebody loves vertical technical climbing, and that's all they want to do for their whole life. That's awesome. Likewise, for steep, you know, thuggy or more powerful climbing, that's also awesome. I just think as long as you love it, it's awesome. Um, but for me, I think I'd lost the spark of learning and excitement by by, you know, staying in my comfort zone. And, and I've rediscovered like, a lot of excitement for climbing and trying to improve by trying to learn and, you know, I don't know if I'll ever master it, like I said, but, you know, trying to learn to be a better steep climber. 

Kris Hampton  17:10

And that's okay.

Alli Rainey  17:10

Yeah, no, I don't really care. Like, learning. Exactly. Learning is the fun part. Like I'm still enjoying all of the learning that goes into it, you know, and it's totally changed. I just have these moments where I'm like, I realized it's just totally changed where I want to travel to, and like when I go to crags what I'm looking for, because I have absolutely no interest in what used to light my fire, and I look for the things that I used to, like avoid, like the plague, you know? And it's, it's great. You know, I'm like, it's so funny. Like, I've done a complete 180. And wow, isn't that neat? You know, when you observe yourself, if you step outside yourself, you're like me, I can be like, wow, that's kind of neat. Like, I, I know, if you told me 10 years ago that this is what I would have been looking for, I would have been like, You're crazy. You know, I'll never climb stuff like that. And now it's like the most fun thing I can imagine. And I think that's what rock climbing when I started climbing was the most fun thing I could imagine. And now I'm right back there where rock climbing is the most fun thing I can imagine doing. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  18:11

So there, there are two sides to any kind of shift like this, you know, one side physical, one side mental, you kind of have to make the shift in both directions. And, and now you're in a really good place with it mentally. You know, were there any struggles early on? Just with the, you know, did you throw any wobblers? Like, I'm never gonna get good at this? Or are you pretty much just like, I can do this?

Alli Rainey  18:40

I was an angel. No, no, I'm really emotional. 

Kris Hampton  18:44

I should have brought Kevin in for this one.

Alli Rainey  18:45

Yeah, it's like ask Kevin! No, it definitely is definitely a struggle. I mean, I feel like I'm mentally in a better place with climbing right now than I've ever been actually, like, I'm just really happy with everything and psyched on it. But yeah, it was a real struggle. You know, I mean, it's... and part of coaching has helped me get the perspective too of seeing that other people go through this. And it's really hard when you're in the moment. And we like just, we were talking about this a couple seconds ago. But when you're trying to improve at something, the time that it takes, your brain is always ahead of your body. So yeah, you know, you always think you're going to be you think you're going to get more gains out of what you put into it, you know, and what I've always thought would be really neat is, if you could if you put a lot of effort into getting better at something, it would be so cool if you could actually climb back into the body you had five years ago and see what it was like to climb with that body.

Kris Hampton  18:47

Oh man, that would be amazing.

Alli Rainey  18:52

Right? Because everyone's always like, I don't know if I'm getting better because they're so stuck in the moment and you're so stuck in the last two or three months. But yeah, that's nothing in the big picture of training.

Kris Hampton  19:35

I wish I could put that day into all of my clients training plans totally. Today, you're gonna step back into you five years ago.

Alli Rainey  20:00

Exactly, like you, you know, because if I stepped into me five years ago, I mean, I didn't know barely anything. I mean, I'd climbed a few steep things, but not because I started my, you know, steep thing, but I had not been able, I'm not the same climber I am now, you know, and I hope five years from now, I'm also not the same climber I am now. You know, but who knows? I mean, you just, you can't have expectations. But yeah, I definitely had struggles. And I definitely had times when I wasn't really sure if I was going to be able to improve to where I wanted to improve, you know, yeah. And there are definitely some, some downtimes you know, and some really up times, too. I mean, obviously, one of the big downtimes was my whole injury when I, you know, which wasn't even caused by climbing but when I had like, kind of overtrained my push muscles, and yeah, fell and triggered a paralysis. And that was the worst time in my climbing ever. So that doesn't have to do with steep climbing or anything. And I didn't handle that very well. But I think it was a good lesson in not basing your whole identity in rock climbing, yeah, you get climbing taken away, what are you going to do? Can you live your life as a happy person? And it was really jarring for me, because you might think you can, but if you've set your whole life up around, climbing, and everything that's fun has to do with climbing, and suddenly it's ripped away really unexpectedly from you. Yeah. It was really, like really shattering, you know. And I honestly do think if that happened, again, that I would be much more okay with it, I wouldn't be psyched, but I don't think it would put me into such a dark place. Because it was really, really frightening, not just on the physical trauma level, but on the like, Wow.

Kris Hampton  21:46

What am I going to do now?

Alli Rainey  21:48

Yeah, this is this is this is I've internalized my identity as a climber so much that I feel completely empty without this thing to hold on to. And I don't want that. You know, I don't I don't want to have that I don't want I don't want my whole identity to be wrapped up in climbing, you know? Yeah. And that's kind of a scary thing to realize, you know, and I don't think I had intentionally made it that way. But, you know, when it was suddenly taken away, and there was a threat, I didn't know if I was going to be better or not, you know, it was kind of, you know, really a really frightening experience. But I think, you know, like, all bad, quote, bad experiences, I think it was a really awesome educational experience. And I'm glad that I got better and had the opportunity to sort of create a healthier relationship with climbing than what I'd had before, you know, yeah. Which I feel like was pretty severely addictive.

Kris Hampton  22:43

It was kind of a one way street before. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I've been lucky, you know, I'm going through a shoulder injury right now and rehabbing that, and I think I was lucky that I just had a lot of hobbies, already, ya know, making music and painting. And I had all these things going on. So yeah, so it didn't really affect me that much. And I hadn't really thought about what it would be like to have, you know, your whole life revolving around it, and then all of a sudden not be able to do it.

Alli Rainey  23:11

Right. On a trip to Europe, no less, you know, and then you're just like, Oh, no, you know,

Kris Hampton  23:17

You just eat pastries.

Alli Rainey  23:18

Yeah, exactly! I mean, I'm, like, oh first world problems, too. I mean, really, you have to put it in perspective, I did have humor, between my "Woe is me," I do have humor about stuff like that, too. I mean, it could be much worse, you know. But when you're living through a traumatic injury, you know, in a sport that's been really important to you, it's really, you know, it's not uncommon to be depressed, and I've had other people reach out to me, who've had a similar thing happen to them, you know, and it's, it's really hard, you know, and you'd like to think, Oh, I'm stronger than that. Or, you know, I would have liked to think that, you know, but I wasn't and, but I, like I said, I think it was a really good educational experience to like, pull me, you know, pull sort of pull me away from viewing it so addictively and I actually think that was quite freeing for me, too, and, and just enjoying the moment and climbing.

Kris Hampton  24:11

Yeah, it might've helped you embrace this new style you're embarking on and you're like, I'm just gonna have fun. 

Alli Rainey  24:17

Totally, totally, I mean, I just don't want to, like, I don't want to spend any climbing day feeling frustrated or angry, you know, I mean, I might drop the F bomb when I fall off, but like, it's always with a giggle now, you know, and I'm not like, like, I'm not on a deadline for when I need to send or whatever, you know, I'm just psyched if I like feel a little difference in my technique, or I feel a little bit stronger on a move or like, have an awesome day laughing with friends and feel terrible climbing, you know? 

Kris Hampton  24:46

I think that giggle is a big deal. You know, when you know, when you learn to just kind of shake your head and laugh at yourself. 

Kris Hampton  24:53

Like, I can't believe I'm falling off of this again. You know, then climbing becomes a lot more fun. 

Alli Rainey  24:53

Yeah, it doesn't matter! 

Alli Rainey  24:58

Yeah, it's like it doesn't matter. I mean, we're just rock climbing. It's supposed to be fun, you know? And that, I think, even though you might know that in one level, it's really easy to sort of lose sight, sight of that, and have it become sort of a chore. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  25:12

Just get super serious about it.

Alli Rainey  25:13

Yeah, and I don't want to be super serious, I have way more fun like, trying as hard as I can. But then laughing if I fall and climbing with other people who are the same way, you know, just laughing.

Kris Hampton  25:23

I love to fall. I love to be shown who's boss. Yeah, I just always end up with this grin on my face, like, oh, man, I totally thought I had it. And I didn't.

Alli Rainey  25:34

Or like the other day, I was like, it was like, kinda like doing really good on this route. And then I just got to this point where I couldn't move, and to everyone on the ground, you, it doesn't look like - you never look like what you feel on the ground. So they're going like, "Move!" 

Kris Hampton  25:48

Everybody's like, "Why'd you fall? Why'd you let go?"

Alli Rainey  25:50

And you're like "I can't move and I can't shake and I can't do anything!" Like, you might as well just "take", like, nothing's happening here. And I just was laughing the whole time I said that, you know, because I know what it looked like I just froze. And I, my body was like in total shutdown. And the last thing for me to go was always my hands like, my hands are my strong thing. So they were still hanging on.

Kris Hampton  26:13

That's really interesting.

Alli Rainey  26:14

But I couldn't do anything. I love the term, someone in the Red actually coined this term, but I love the term for that, which is like being handcuffed. And I'm like that pretty much describes my climbing. Yeah, I just climbed to a point. And it's still like, most of the time, I'm just shut down because I totally look like I just stop. I just stop. 

Kris Hampton  26:33

You can't, you can't help but laugh at that, ya know? 

Alli Rainey  26:35

Yeah, I'm like, I can't move. I can't I don't even have enough strength to like, start the next move. But I can still just,

Kris Hampton  26:40

I can just hold on!

Alli Rainey  26:41

I can just hold right here.

Kris Hampton  26:41

Yeah, I had that happen to me once here. And Micah Rush and Colby and all these guys are down below. And they're like, like, Oh, you Red River guys can just shake out forever. And I'm like, I'm not shaking out. I just can't do anything.

Alli Rainey  26:57

Exactly!

Kris Hampton  26:58

I'm trying to figure out why I can't reach to the next hold.

Alli Rainey  27:01

Exactly, that next hold is not that far away! But right now it looks like it's like 70 feet away from me, you don't understand! And there's no way I can get there. Yeah, it's just funny. But yeah, I know. I mean, it's great. You know? 

Kris Hampton  27:18

So, so speaking of making these, you know, having the reaches being your limiting factor, you've not only gone through this mental transition to get where you're at. But I mean, it seems obvious to me that your body has changed pretty radically.

Alli Rainey  27:35

Wait are you saying I'm fat? No, I'm just kidding!

Kris Hampton  27:38

Quite the opposite. So you've become this, I mean, you look like a really powerful climber now.

Alli Rainey  27:44

Yeah. So this all started with Kevin, bless Kevin, bless his heart, Kevin said... I hurt my ankle. And in my transition into training, the way I have pursued climbing was very gradual. But the the origin of it was I hurt my ankle at a bouldering competition in 2007. It seems like everything happened in 2007. Anyway, I think it was 2007 or 2008. Anyway, I hurt my ankle. And we were about to go on a trip to Kalymnos. And where I didn't really climb anything steep because I was still intimidated by it. But but Kevin was like, now's the perfect time for you to start doing pull ups. And I was like, I hate doing pull ups. And he was like, exactly, yeah, that's why you should be doing them. Yeah, you know. And so I mean, I started doing some pull ups. And that's what actually started me into, like training outside of climbing, training that I and that was just dabbling. Like, I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't know a lot about training, period, like outside of climbing, using climbing for training. But, you know, I so I did some bodyweight training for the next few years as I was starting to try to get into the steep climbing, but I know that in 2010, I walked through a weight gym with Kevin in Canada, and I didn't really know how to use most of the equipment in there. So I hadn't really got into it until well after that, I think is when I really started getting into weight training.

Kris Hampton  29:07

And did Kevin have a background in it, somewhat? 

Alli Rainey  29:09

He's done a lot of weight training, but it was more like... so he knew a lot about training like with weights for other sports, because he grew up doing track and field and doing a lot of research for that. But then I also just started reading a ton of training materials, you know, and being a real open to self experimentation and train with training methods. And then we got a Bowflex as our wedding present. And yes, I have a Bowflex. And I also have the Bowflex style weights and I also have his dad's old Olympic weights so we have kind of a nice setup. Yeah. So I just started reading and reading and reading about strength training and I was weak like my upper body is weak. My hands were strong. My forearms are strong relatively, you know, I'm still... your fingers can never be strong enough and climbing I was like things you never hear, things you'll never hear a climber say, "Damn, my fingers are too strong for rock climbing!" you know, like, obviously not, you know, my forearms, my fingers are not, you know, the strongest thing ,forearms and fingers, in the game at all, but relative to my upper body strength and my ability to pull, they were way stronger. Right? You know, and, and I didn't have the ability to do like long, like, especially if I reached up with, you know, like, let's say my hands were matched. And then I reached up with my right hand and it was way stretched out. And then I had to pull all the way through another arm length. And yeah, left hand, no way, I just couldn't do that, you know, it was totally impossible. And so when I started getting on, never mind on steep rock, you know, where you have way more body weight on your arms. And so I put myself on the fast track to getting stronger by doing like climbing specific weight training. And it made the biggest difference personally, for me. I think it depends what your weaknesses and strengths are, what you focus on, but for me focusing on that made the biggest difference in my climbing, ever, you know, I used to think my personal mantra was, and I didn't mean this, but I would always say, I'm just not a powerful climber, I'd come to believe that because, right, say that to yourself, and you believe it. And I just remember thinking, well, I'll just never be a powerful climber, I have no power, I would say that all the time, too. I have no power. I'll never be a powerful climber. I'm just not good at that that kind of thing. But I just never had the...

Kris Hampton  31:23

And you were just accepting of that back then.

Alli Rainey  31:25

Yeah, I just accepted it, I'd kind of given up, I'd never had a suggestion of what what, you know, what would work for me, you know, that I'd push through. I mean, if for weight training, or, you know, strength training, like just bouldering had never worked for me. I just I don't think I was strong enough to boulder strong enough to make a difference. But the way it's really pushed me over the, the edge of realizing, you know, gradually I became stronger and stronger and stronger, and I'm still getting stronger. You know, and I'm not, I'm not a spring chicken anymore. I mean, I'm not a 20 something climber, but I'd never tapped into my potential. Right. You know, I mean, I'm 40 and I'm still getting stronger.

Kris Hampton  32:05

About how old were you when you started bodyweight training?

Alli Rainey  32:07

Real weight training? Bodyweight training, I was probably 30... Let's see. Let's do the math. 34? 33, 34? And then I started into more, like weight training, probably 2010, 2011? Yeah. So 36-ish. And then I'd say I've really ramped it up the last few years. So I built a really strong base before, you know.

Kris Hampton  32:31

And that's what I was gonna say. I think it's important that you started with, yeah, bodyweight training. I think a lot of people kind of start this cycle the same way, they start with some bodyweight training. Yeah. And a lot of people hit this sticking point where they think, oh, if I lift weights, I'm gonna get big. Yeah, but Kevin being a track and field athlete, those guys train like athletes, they train with weights. And, and it's really important in track and field to be light. Yeah, you know, those guys are working on a strength to weight ratio similar to climbers, same as gymnasts.

Alli Rainey  33:02

Yeah. And that's the the thing I've said, every climber should read the chapter on body composition in Advanced Sports Nutrition by Dan Benardot, there's a plug for that guy, but it's an awesome book on how to eat properly. And he makes a great, there's a study on gymnasts in there that talks about how the lighter gymnast actually had a higher body fat percentage than the heavier gymnast. And they had worse strength to weight ratio because of it. So you know, obviously, I don't want to be a 200 pound, you know, weightlifting behemoth, but most bodies can't do that. Right? You know, you can't put on muscle that easily. And most of the time, if you put on sport specific muscle, your percentage gain and strength and endurance too way outweighs the weight gain. 

Kris Hampton  33:02

Right, it'll totally offset that. 

Alli Rainey  33:08

And then I would say I confirm I live that, you know, like, I'm heavier than I was when I started weight training. But I have a lower body fat percentage, and I can pull off moves that I could not do before, you know, absolutely.

Kris Hampton  33:59

If you don't mind me asking what what is your weight difference from then to now?

Alli Rainey  34:03

I'm, from when I started, I would say I'm about 10 pounds heavier. 

Kris Hampton  34:07

Nice. 

Alli Rainey  34:07

Yeah. So it's not huge. 

Kris Hampton  34:09

And you're stronger. And doing moves.

Alli Rainey  34:10

Way stronger, you know, I mean, and that's the thing for me is and and I had a you know, being a woman, it's really hard to accept gaining weight. So at first when I started feeling like I was putting on muscle, I did body fat checks, you know, to just to like mentally settle myself down. And then what... the honest honestly what happened is, I started climbing way stronger, and I just stopped caring. Because why do why do I care what the numbers on the scale say if I can do moves that I couldn't do before? It just doesn't matter. 

Kris Hampton  34:42

Exactly. It's your performance that you should be measuring.

Alli Rainey  34:45

if I suddenly start to not be able to do moves that I can do right now and I'm gained a bunch more muscle well, then alarm bells will go off, you know, but I, you know, and and the other thing about weight training is you won't necessarily gain muscle. What you're trying to do is train your body to be more efficient, and some bodies will put on more muscle. But some bodies will also develop better like being able to use the muscle that you have more efficiently like you're enhancing your neuromuscular connections. When you weight train with heavy weights, you're engaging more muscle fibers than you would because your body's really efficient. So they're only going to use the amount of muscle fiber that they need for any given movement. If you condition your body to recruit more muscles more often, then you're going to have that recruit - that higher level of recruitment available to you when you're climbing. So you might not actually put muscle weight on. But point being, if you do put muscle weight on and it's sport specific, and you climb better, than numbers on the scale shouldn't matter.

Kris Hampton  35:42

Yeah, it doesn't matter. 

Alli Rainey  35:42

You know, your strength to weight ratio is improved. And mine comes, like, like I said, I can do moves... this, I came out of training this winter, I did my hardest strength training this winter ever. And I could do moves that I couldn't do last year. And to me, I was like, I don't really care what I weigh, because I can do these moves that I couldn't do last year, that's all that I care about, you know. And, and to me, I was like, I don't really care what I weigh, because I can do these moves that I couldn't do last year. That's all that I care about, you know, and,

Kris Hampton  36:14

Let me rewind that for you one more time.

Alli Rainey  36:19

And to me, I was like, I don't really care what I weigh, because I can do these moves that I couldn't do last year. That's all that I care about, you know, and I hope to keep, you know, keep that going through the next training cycle in the winter two.

Kris Hampton  36:34

Did you get that? Wise words from Alli Rainey, wise words, indeed, ones that a lot of us could pay a little more attention to. You know, the strength to weight ratio is real, it's important. But you can't forget the strength part of that ratio. I think too many people just worry about dropping their weight, and they're not really interested in getting stronger. It just seems like a Band Aid and you're not gonna, you're not gonna make big progress that way. It's just not gonna happen. It's... you're gonna stall out. That's what I'm trying to say. And I think I just want to leave you with that point. Maybe that was abrupt. It was abrupt. But I just want to leave that there because I don't think it can be overstated. Ali was a 5.14 climber in her vert techie style. And embracing this new gymnastic style of climbing and the ways to train for it. She changed her body pretty dramatically, gained 10 pounds of useful muscle, and improved her strength to weight ratio by gaining weight. And like I said, I don't think that can be overstated. So there will be a part two with Alli. We talked some more, specifically about training during the climbing season and how that works. And if it does work. So you'll be hearing that soon. I've also got episodes coming with Steve Bechtel, I might even drag Nate on here. Nate's, Nate's very, very mindful of his climbing and of his movement. And if I can get him talking about that, then maybe we'll do that. So check us out on the interwebs powercompanyclimbing.com. You can find us on Facebook, Pinterest, and Instagram. No Twitter's. You can reach out to Alli at allirainey.com. And if you're in the Knoxville or the Akron area, look us up for those workshops. We'd be happy to see you out there. All right, I need to get to the gym. Training to do. hash tag: we build machines.