Episode 45: Aggressive Creativity with Jason Kehl

Photo by Andy Wickstrom.  www.silver-egg.org

We all like to call climbing an art form, but very few of us take it to the high degree that Jason Kehl does.  From his haircut to his hold lines, his videos to his gym designs, Jason is anything but conventional, and that's exactly why he's so compelling.  I needed to know what fueled his creativity, wanted to dig into his process, and secretly was just dying to see his home wall.   He's been incredibly successful at rolling all of his interests into one brand - something I've tried hard to emulate, and I appreciate how through it all he's kept true to himself, his vision, and his integrity.  That's not an easy task.

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:32

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 45 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by Powercompanyclimbing.com. Every time you listen, that's who it's brought to you by. You know why? Because we don't need sponsors. We don't want them. You guys have stepped up. You become patrons. You guys are helping us keep this thing sponsor free. And I appreciate that a ton, frankly. And I've you know, all of you hardcore listeners may realize that I've dropped back to sort of a normal pace instead of my normal, frantic, manic, put out episodes at breakneck speed. So we're back to about three a month. And that's because we've been working on the new We Scream Like Eagles podcast, which is something that the patrons get. If you're interested in checking that out for as little as $1 month, you can become a patron at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. But I'm not gonna beat you over the head with that right now. I've also been working on an episode that I'm pretty excited about that you'll be getting next after this one which is a multi part episode with my good friend Angie Payne, and we're talking about pressure. We both went to the World Cup in Vail and I ambushed people with my microphone and talked to them about pressure. People like Alex Puccio and Jan Hoyer and Janya Garnbret and Shauna Coxsey and Brooke Raboutou and Megan Martin, and so on, and so on, and so on. And meanwhile, Angie took photos of the the emotion that these pressurized situations tend to bring out of these competitors. And she got some really great stuff and, and then she and I sat down and discussed pressure, discussed her photos, discussed the comments of the competitors that we got. You'll hear those clips, you'll see the photos on the website and I think that's gonna be something different and really cool for you guys to look at. So you'll get that next. So I'm gonna go ahead and move on here. A couple of quick pieces of business. Number one, we're still looking for that 100 reviews in 2017. We've got 88 that means 12 of you who have iPhones, sorry, Googlers with your Androids. I don't I don't know what Google's deal is they they don't support reviewing. Sorry about that. But those of you with iPhones can go and review us on Apple Podcasts. You just go to your podcast app, you click on My Podcasts, you then search for The Power Company Podcast, click on our logo, and it will then be self explanatory how to leave a review, I believe and, and we would love to hear what you guys have to say whether it's good, whether it's bad, whatever. I do want to highlight one that came in in May. This one's so good. I just really wanted to try and read it. It's from AKW555. He's, the title is "So good. So strong". He says, "The content offered by Kris and company is as good as it gets in the climbing training realm. Such high quality juice has inherent cost to produce. But Odub giveth thine community thy knowledge for free. Download. Listen. Become enlightened. Get strong. Send. Send. Pssat! Write a review. Pssat! Pssat! It's time to build."  How did I do, AKW555? Thank you for writing that review. It's really fun to read those things. I do want to jump into this thing. I don't want to keep you guys too long. We've got a few events coming up which I will tell you more about on the way out of this thing. So if you're interested in coming out to workshops or coming to see us, you can hear about it at the end. I'm going to jump right into this thing with Jason Kehl. I sat down with Jason in Hueco this past winter, at his house actually, and and we talked about sort of a nebulous, you know, idea to discuss which is creativity and climbing and how it affects his climbing and his shaping and, and how he rolls all of these things, his you know, his brand, his Cryptochild brand into his entire life. And I think it's really, really interesting what he's done and what he's accomplished. And I'll just let Jason tell you the rest.

Jason Kehl  05:19

I mean, that's what I like to do. I like to, you know, know when to turn it on, know when to relax and know when to get aggressive. For me, I have to try hard to succeed.

Kris Hampton  05:28

I'm looking forward to getting back here, getting to West. We didn't get to West at all this trip 

Jason Kehl  05:51

Oh, no?

Kris Hampton  05:52

 So, and I kind of felt like, you know, once I went to East and went to the Spur, and kind of had a few days where we were climbing things that I could do really quickly. 

Jason Kehl  06:02

Mm hmm.

Kris Hampton  06:03

 It was like, I don't know how often I'm gonna get back here. 

Jason Kehl  06:06

Yeah, yeah you gotta pick your battles.

Kris Hampton  06:07

I'd rather, I'd rather just for my first trip here and pick stuff on North that I can have fun doing and spend time on if I want to or not.

Jason Kehl  06:14

 There's too much. Yeah. You get trapped in a project and you have to keep going back there. And yeah, you know, find a tour to get there. And yeah, it's epic.

Kris Hampton  06:23

Were you ever the kind of guy that projected things that were already established?

Jason Kehl  06:28

Yeah, for sure. But there's just so much stuff to do in Hueco that's not established. 

Kris Hampton  06:37

Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  06:37

And in the big picture, like, that's how I would want to be remembered is by you know, look, oh, here's all the climbs that Jason put up. Like, I could easily be distracted by all that other stuff.

Kris Hampton  06:51

 Oh, sure. 

Jason Kehl  06:52

You know, but I have a limited amount of time here. A limited amount of skin. And I just want to find the coolest stuff I can I can do. 

Kris Hampton  07:00

Yeah.

Jason Kehl  07:01

 I mean, everyone can repeat stuff, so

Kris Hampton  07:03

Yeah. How much time have you spent repeating things in Hueco? Or has it pretty much always

Jason Kehl  07:07

A decent amount. No, I mean, a decent amount. Like I've I've been, you know, started climbing here in like, 96 or something, so

Kris Hampton  07:14

 Oh, yeah. You've been here a while then.

Jason Kehl  07:16

 I don't think I started really searching out first ascents until probably like, I don't know, eight years ago or so.

Kris Hampton  07:26

Yeah, that's cool. Because I was, you know, this is my first time here, so I'm just repeating things. But just the other day, we were over in an area, working on something with Annalissa and I started looking at this arete and was like, Oh, there are really cool holds here. I wonder if anyone's ever done this? It's right next to a very well traveled area, so I'm like, I can't imagine no one's ever looked at this. But you never know. 

Jason Kehl  07:51

Well, yeah, a lot of times people just go to the classics.

Kris Hampton  07:54

Right. Exactly. 

Jason Kehl  07:55

And there are like a lot of those problems. You know, when you go to the area, and you're just bored, because you've done all this stuff at the area, and then you start looking around, you're like,"What's this? What's this?".  And I definitely put up some random stuff like, around Bush League and stuff like that, just because I was there and I didn't want to do the same thing over and over again and I saw new holds and they were cool. 

Kris Hampton  08:19

Yeah. Do you ever when you go out do you do like, eliminate things as well? 

Kris Hampton  08:25

Or contrived things just to be climbing something different?

Jason Kehl  08:25

Not so much

Jason Kehl  08:29

Not so much

Jason Kehl  08:30

No? There's a line? 

Jason Kehl  08:32

I mean, No, yeah, not so much. No.

Kris Hampton  08:35

Are you more drawn to what the climb looks like when you stand back from it and look at it as opposed to

Jason Kehl  08:42

To moves?

Kris Hampton  08:42

 Just the movement?

Jason Kehl  08:43

Yeah.......Yeah....I think so. I mean, it has to be a whole, you know, like, the climb has, it can't be like, really cool movement and then it just absolutely looks like shit. Like, I wouldn't be as psyched, but

Kris Hampton  08:57

Yeah,

Jason Kehl  08:57

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  08:58

Well, it's, I kind of want to talk to you about, you know, the whole package of creativity, like how you blended all these parts of your, your creative life into climbing. 

Jason Kehl  09:11

Mm hmm.

Kris Hampton  09:12

 And, and that's something that, you know, I, I feel really close to, because I've tried to blend other parts of my life that that could be, you know, totally separate from climbing, tried to blend it with climbing in a creative way. And, you know, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, but it's really interesting. And I know that you're also, you know, really interested in progression as well, both, both physically, climbing harder boulders, and just pushing into new new realms, whether that's headspace or, you know, creativity or whatever.

Jason Kehl  09:52

Mm hmm.

Kris Hampton  09:53

And I was listening to the Chalk Talk Podcast you did with John and you mentioned that you thought it was important to get stronger because it opens up more doors and you see things differently. And I thought that was was a really interesting way to look at it because a lot of creative people completely take out the the training, getting stronger aspect of climbing and what that could mean to their creativity. 

Jason Kehl  10:20

Mm hmm. 

Kris Hampton  10:20

So I just thought that was interesting. 

Jason Kehl  10:22

Yeah, 

Kris Hampton  10:23

But let's, let's back up. And you know, when you were a kid, did you, were you involved in sports at all? 

Jason Kehl  10:29

A little, you know, growing up in suburban America, you kind of get into all the, you know, baseball, soccer, all that kind of stuff. But then, as I got older, I found I really wasn't into the team, team sports at all. I just, you know, it was a put off, you know. You could never really shine as yourself, you know? 

Kris Hampton  10:52

Sure. 

Jason Kehl  10:53

And I think that's when I got involved in like more personal sports, like karate I was really into and, and then climbing. And that was why I like climbing because at the time, there were no coaches 

Kris Hampton  11:06

Right,

Jason Kehl  11:06

Like there was no one telling you what to do. You kind of had to piece it together yourself.

Kris Hampton  11:10

Yep. Yeah. And I was just looking at a study the other night, actually heard about it on a podcast, and then looked at the study a little bit, that being involved in organized sports, as a kid actually reduces creativity off the field. 

Jason Kehl  11:28

Mm hmm. 

Kris Hampton  11:30

You know, and there could be several ways to draw correlations to that, but, but they also studied kids who were involved in non organized sports more like martial arts or rock climbing, skateboarding, things like that. And those kids were the were far more creative than the organized, the kids involved in organized sports.

Jason Kehl  11:51

Yeah, for sure. 

Kris Hampton  11:52

So I was just curious about your sports background.

Jason Kehl  11:54

Yeah, I think you're waiting a lot of times on the team sports, you're waiting for someone to tell you what to do.

Kris Hampton  11:58

Yeah, exactly.

Jason Kehl  11:59

And if you're doing your own thing, you have to be creative. You know, especially like something like skateboarding or something like that, where, you know, you're the one in control and you're like, "Okay, what can I do now to keep pushing myself and keep trying something new and keeping psyched?"

Kris Hampton  12:16

Yeah, I worry about that with, with training for climbing, you know, it's how I'm making my living now. And, and I don't, I see many, many people thinking of training just as hangboard, campus, weightlift, very physical things, you know, and I think there's a more creative aspect to it that needs to be fostered.

Jason Kehl  12:34

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  12:35

So I'm just interested in picking your brain with that. How much do you think creativity plays into your outdoor climbing?

Jason Kehl  12:44

Um, a lot? Like, I mean, that's what I like about, you know, yeah, first finding the line, and then, you know, even believing that it's possible, and then, you know, you start at the base, and you're just trying to, like, figure out any possible way to get up it. And, you know, just having the belief that you're gonna find the way because sometimes you will go to the same thing over and over, and you cannot figure it out. But it's when you stop trying, you know, then it's over. But you come up with one tiny thing, you're like, "What else?", like wrack your brain. What else could I possibly do different? You know, you look at it, and you're like, I've tried absolutely everything like, this can't be done. And then you like, change your one foot, like, you know, to the right, two inches and everything opens up.

Kris Hampton  13:33

Yeah.

Jason Kehl  13:34

 So I think just having that patience. I think that's a huge deal. You know, being patient and, you know, continuing to like, be like, okay, there, there has to be some minute little thing that I can change. And that's all that could make all the difference. 

Kris Hampton  13:50

Yeah. And I think that's part of creativity. To me creating art is a similar thing. 

Jason Kehl  13:55

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  13:55

You know, it's not like, you just, you know, look at a block of foam when you're shaping and instantly the the perfect hold comes out. You really have to be patient with it, and things happen.

Jason Kehl  14:07

 And, and a lot of times, it's that small thing that makes it all happen. And you know, yeah, if you don't have the time to see that, or, yeah, it's like people think, okay, I want to do a really cool hold, but it has to be like so different than everything else. 

Kris Hampton  14:22

Right.

Jason Kehl  14:22

 It can be different, but because of one tiny little thing. So and I think that's why, you know, certain holds are more accepted, you know, because they're simple, not because they're outrageous.

Kris Hampton  14:34

Yep. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, even when they, like we were talking about your pipes just a few minutes ago, and we were looking at your home wall here. Those look so different than every other hold that's out there. But still, you're you're holding them much the same as you would, you know, a climbing hold outside.

Jason Kehl  14:54

For sure. 

Kris Hampton  14:55

But I think they help to expand your mind a little bit because you start using them in different ways than you than you would a normal hold. If it's a sloper, you're just like, I'm going to grab it like a sloper. But these things let you go, Oh, I'm not sure how to grab that. Let me play with it a little bit.

Jason Kehl  15:12

Yeah, I mean, it just takes that whole, you know, organic concept of a hold, and simplifies it in this, you know, non organic shape that is very symmetrical. I mean, you could look at each hold and see the same thing in other holds, but this is just, you know, refined into this, you know, one single concept.

Kris Hampton  15:33

Do you take that, you know, almost non organic approach to other seemingly organic things? I mean, I think some of it we can see, like, your climbing videos are very much, you know, different than the norm. You know, even though they're still showcasing rock climbing.

Jason Kehl  15:52

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  15:53

You know, have you always taken that approach to things?

Jason Kehl  15:57

Yeah, I think because I'm bored with everything else.

Kris Hampton  16:00

 Mm hmm.

Jason Kehl  16:01

 And, you know, it's your choice what you show people. Like, you don't have to go do a first ascent and then post the uncut footage of your first ascent like, to me, that's super boring. 

Kris Hampton  16:13

Right.

Jason Kehl  16:13

So I have a choice. What can I do differently? I have an audience, what can I show them? And so yeah, the whole thing just ends up working out.

Kris Hampton  16:22

Yeah. How much do you,when you're going out to, you know, work on something, do you always take the video camera?

Jason Kehl  16:29

Not necessarily. Usually, if it's something that I know, okay, like, I'd love to, you know, put this in a video or something, I'll take the camera. But like, there's that problem, the first problem is in the video, this Echo Chamber, like, I put up four lines on that boulder, and didn't take the camera at once, and didn't shoot any of them. And then we went out and shot the standard line for the video. And yeah, I don't know, it's, it's different. Like, I want to climb with friends sometimes and I don't want to bring that part of it with me, you know?

Kris Hampton  17:08

 Yeah

Jason Kehl  17:08

I don't want to be like, Oh, hold on, let me set up the shot. 

Kris Hampton  17:12

Right, right.

Jason Kehl  17:12

You know, I just want to go out and climb. So sometimes I just go out and climb. Or other times I go out, like, you know, tomorrow, I'm gonna go out with Andy Wickstrom and we're gonna try and get some, like, fill in shots. So we're going out specifically to get some shots, you know and probably won't focus on climbing that much.

Kris Hampton  17:30

Yeah. And I think what I'm really interested in there is that it's, you know, no matter what you're doing, if you're going out climbing with friends, looking at new things, you're bringing your creativity to it. But then you also come back to these things and, and approach them in a really creative way. However, some people could definitely, and I've heard people say this, and I'm not in agreement, necessarily, but but filming all the things you do, you know, sort of takes away from the experience or something like that. And like it's this non esoteric, non organic way to approach climbing, and it makes it this, I don't know, stale thing instead of this bright creative thing. But I don't I don't think that I agree with that. And I can't imagine that you do either, because you release these great videos.

Jason Kehl  18:25

Yeah, I think it depends on you know, what you're into, and you know, what your end goal is. Like a lot of people use climbing as a release. They just want to go out and climb and release the stress and that's it. And tehy're like, "Oh, why you gotta bring your camera out?', you know, those type of guys.

Kris Hampton  18:41

 Right. Right. 

Jason Kehl  18:42

But at the same time, it's like, a lot of things that I'm shooting and climbing, I think they're so amazing when I find them that I want to, you know, showcase them, share them with the world. And, you know, a lot of times in the past, like when it wasn't as acceptable, like, you know, to have a video camera, like, there's ascents I've done where I'm like, wow, I wish I wish I really would have had a camera then. Like, you know, soloing The Fly, for instance. I got photos taken, this guy came out, he took photos and like, I remember the moment and I remember how intense it was and I'm like, wow, I wish I would have like filmed that. Like would have been so different than just these, you know, stale still photos.

Kris Hampton  19:24

 Right. Right.

Jason Kehl  19:25

 Something that happened.

Kris Hampton  19:27

Yeah, it's interesting how we progressively as we get older, and as we climb more and more, and things are changing around us, you know, that we think back and wish we would have done something differently. Even though the the process in the moment is such an important part of it, you know, 

Jason Kehl  19:45

The accomplishment. 

Kris Hampton  19:46

Yeah, we can still look back and be like, Oh, I wish I would have done this differently. You know, I think that all the time. I wish I would have had a video camera for things I did eons ago, you know. Where does your inspiration for these videos come from? Do you, um, do you have these ideas in mind even before you find problems? Or do they grow with the problem?

Jason Kehl  20:07

No, yeah, just, you know, going out and thinking about them. Sometimes, you know, I'll have a concept in mind, but like, like, right now, I'm trying to make this video and I've got like, three or four problems filmed and that's all I have filmed. It's just, you know, I went out there, I put the camera there and then after I send, I get some other angles, but I have no filler material. I have no story. I have no nothing.

Kris Hampton  20:33

Right.

Jason Kehl  20:33

 And so a lot of times, I'll go out, you know, and just try and think about it while I'm out there, you know, and I'll come up with something that kind of just like brainstorming, you know, while you're out there, and, and a lot of times, I don't know, I'll like come up with it as I'm doing it, or as I'm going through the process of making the video. So I would find it pretty stressful to like, you know, go go shoot a video, like and shoot it in, like, one week or something. Because a lot of times I'll be like, okay, I want to get this shot and that'll make, you know, all this work together. And so, a lot of the videos in the past, like I've had the opportunity to be like, okay, let's, you know, let's go back and get this shot. And 

Kris Hampton  21:17

Yeah, once you've figured out the story that you want to tell.

Jason Kehl  21:20

Yeah, fill out a story and then make the whole thing seem, make it like it makes more sense. But yeah, it's it's hard, especially my track record you know, I'm like, Okay, I gotta come up with a creative video.

Kris Hampton  21:33

Yeah, yeah

Jason Kehl  21:33

It's gotta be cool. It's got to be different than the last one. So there's a little pressure there. But I think that's what makes it fun, you know?

Kris Hampton  21:41

Yeah. And I you know what, I think you'd put that pressure on yourself.

Jason Kehl  21:44

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  21:44

 Even if....I think that's just what creative people do. They want to top their last project.

Jason Kehl  21:49

Yeah. Well, you need that pressure to be, to be more creative.

Kris Hampton  21:53

Yeah, exactly. You know, that what you're just talking about, finding the story later, sort of explains something to me that I didn't even realize needed explaining. I was sitting with Martina, your wife, when you were doing your presentation at Rock Ranch for the Rodeo.  And the video for, it might be "Count To Six And Die". Is that right? Is that the one that you threw your little wobbler on?

Jason Kehl  22:19

Oh, no, that, that was "The End"

Kris Hampton  22:21

"The End". Right, right, right. Well, when you fell off, and you threw the tantrum, Martina turned to me and was like, "This is real. This really happened." And there's like the the moment where you can just see 

Jason Kehl  22:38

Her eyes

Kris Hampton  22:39

 Right above her nose, you see her eyes and she's staring at the camera like, "Oh, God, what's happening?" Yeah, you're throwing shoes and you know, did you watch that footage later and then come back and film the

Jason Kehl  22:53

 The shoe 

Kris Hampton  22:54

The shoe, and headquarters, and all that?

Jason Kehl  22:57

Yeah, I watched the footage and it was just so ridiculous that I was freaking out. And her reaction was so funny and just how the one shoe hit the wall and dropped down to the ground and the other shoe just went out of frame. Yeah, it's just, you know, a good way to poke fun at myself, I guess. And, you know, we all have a wobbler here and there. I just wanted to, you know, poke fun at the fact. And you know, I'm a real person. Like, I freak out like sometimes. And yeah, we, yeah, we just went back and got those little shots of the the office.

Kris Hampton  23:35

Yeah, that's really funny. I think it's good to not take yourself super seriously. 

Jason Kehl  23:39

Yeah,

Kris Hampton  23:39

You know, and I think we can all come across as really serious about what we are doing. 

Jason Kehl  23:45

Mm hmm. 

Kris Hampton  23:46

So I think those light hearted moments like that are really important to have. 

Jason Kehl  23:50

Yeah

Kris Hampton  23:51

You know, do you, do you ever worry that people think you're all about like, just darkness?

Jason Kehl  23:58

Yeah. I mean, I don't worry. But there are people that think that. I mean, there's people that think all kinds of things, you know.

Kris Hampton  24:06

Sure. sure.

Jason Kehl  24:06

 You go in the gym and you fall off a V5 and they're like, yo,that dude, he just fell on V5.

Kris Hampton  24:10

Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Jason Kehl  24:11

He's Jason Kehl, like, what's...you're like, okay, everyone falls on V5 sometimes in their life like. No, so I don't really, you know, I when I meet someone, I assume they know nothing. I don't walk into a climbing area and be like, yo, yo, grab me your pizza, yo, like, I'm Jason Kehl. You know, I assume you know nothing. Every time I meet someone, I assume they know nothing. I don't assume anyone knows who I am. I don't care if anyone knows who I am. So I take everything, you know, at a base level of, Hey, nice to meet you. I'm Jason. Like, who are you? Who am I? 

Jason Kehl  24:15

Sure, but you know you have an audience. 

Jason Kehl  24:51

Oh, sure. Sure.

Kris Hampton  24:52

You know people pay attention. 

Jason Kehl  24:53

And it's weird, you know? 

Kris Hampton  24:54

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  24:55

I think it's weird. Yeah, but so I try not to think about it, and I try to treat everyone equally and yeah,

Kris Hampton  25:02

 Just do your own thing.

Kris Hampton  25:03

Right, right. 

Jason Kehl  25:03

 And yeah, if someone is psyched on me for whatever reason, maybe they saw a cool video, then then that's awesome. And if, if they're open enough to like, talk about it with me that's even cooler, you know, because sometimes people will be like, oh, there's Jason Kehl, and then they won't even like say hello to me. 

Jason Kehl  25:03

I'm like, well, what was that all about? You know, like, sure, I don't, I don't know who you are. But if you walked up to me and introduced yourself, I would be psyched to meet you, too, you know?

Kris Hampton  25:27

Yeah, totally, totally. And you have no idea how many times I've been challenged to rap battles, at like random moments at climbing festivals or out of the boulders, you know. I'm like, "Really?". That's not what I'm here to do. But it's always funny. 

Jason Kehl  25:42

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  25:42

 You know, it's hilarious. 

Jason Kehl  25:43

Yeah, I mean, that's the that's the cool thing is, you know, they are psyched, so why not play along with them and everyone has fun and it's awesome.

Kris Hampton  25:51

Yeah, yeah, totally. What, you know, how do you take your, let's talk about how your hold shaping goes along with your outdoor climbing. Because I think it must, you know,

Jason Kehl  26:05

It does and it doesn't, because, you know, for a while there, I only climbed outdoors and I was still shaping a lot.

Kris Hampton  26:12

 Right. And that I think that's really interesting, that now you're into building and designing gyms for, you know, for clients, big clients and, and you are hold shaping, but you're definitely far more known as an outdoor climber.

Jason Kehl  26:26

Yeah, and I don't know, I think I mean, just, I think just my perspective is like, I'm always looking for something that is interesting to me. So when I'm hiking around, you know, looking for new problems, I'm not only looking for new problems, because, you know, that's all I want to do. It's, you know, I look for amazing features, like, even if it's like next to the ground, like, wow, like, this is amazing rock feature that Hueco, you know, has created. So yeah, I'm always on the lookout for things like that, even, you know, around town or whatever, at the grocery store. I'm always looking for something like that. And I don't know, when I when I am, you know, when I am climbing indoors, and I am setting and I am shaping, I find that everything just is working easier, you know, like this well oiled machine. And when I'm not, it's a little tougher, you know, 

Kris Hampton  27:22

Do you find that your outdoor climbing is changing while you're shaping?

Jason Kehl  27:25

Uh, no, but I just feel more connected if I'm climbing indoors, and shaping or setting because when I'm setting, you know, you have this understanding of what you're looking for, because you're always reaching for holds that you like. So in your mind, you're like, Okay, I like this. I like that. I like that. And then when you're shaping, it's easier to recreate that or just understand what you like. And yeah, the outdoor stuff, it's, I mean, I guess, you know, the shapes organically, you know, I'm always looking for that, so I guess that is connected. But I mean, a lot of my, a lot of my shapes, I don't know, they are organic, but at the same time, they're exaggerated to the point where, you know, you probably wouldn't see it, but that's what makes them fun.

Kris Hampton  28:13

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it should be. You know, I don't I definitely came up in a time similar to you where all the holds were meant to resemble real rock and

Jason Kehl  28:24

They were all brown and you couldn't see them on the wall. 

Kris Hampton  28:26

Exactly. Yeah. And that's not that's not what we're indoors for.

Jason Kehl  28:30

 No, no. 

Kris Hampton  28:31

It's a totally different thing. Yeah. And it's a business that you're trying to sell to the general public, if you're a gym owner, so

Jason Kehl  28:37

Yeah, and you can, so like, you know, why not make it more fun and more creative? And you can do anything you want indoors, really.

Kris Hampton  28:45

Yeah. Do you try to keep your you have some designs that are really, really fun and out there, way outside the box, do you try to make those usable? Like for serious climbers as well? Or are those more just let's keep it really fun?

Jason Kehl  29:03

Oh, as far as climbing holds?

Kris Hampton  29:04

Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  29:04

Um, well, yes and no. Lke a lot of a lot of shapes I had done in the past for So iLL, it was kind of, you know, stuff just to catch your eye. You know, it was like, Oh, you know, you want to do these teeth or we want to do this and I mean, yeah, usable, but realistically, you know, it's more for the fun aspect. Or I wouldn't you know, want to set with them in like the Nationals or something like that.

Kris Hampton  29:33

Sure.

Jason Kehl  29:33

 But now I think we are, I think back then it was like, okay, let's get everyone's attention because we're doing all these crazy things, like 

Kris Hampton  29:41

Almost a marketing decision. 

Jason Kehl  29:42

Yeah. And now we're turning it down a bit and making it still eye catching, but at the same time, like completely usable. You know and I think people are slowly starting to recognize that, you know,

Kris Hampton  29:55

Yeah, yeah, I think that

Jason Kehl  29:56

It's not all crazy. 

Kris Hampton  29:57

Yeah, you know, I've definitely heard in the past have, you know I listen a ton, I'm an observer for sure, so yeah, so I listen to conversations that are going on all around me. And I've heard people talk about, you know, almost taking themselves too seriously and climbing too seriously, are like these, you know, these holds are just, they're just pointless. It's just silly. And, you know, and I'm kind of like, yeah, but that kid over there, it's his first time in the climbing gym, wants to climb on these teeth. Like he thinks it's cool. So, there's definitely a reason to have that stuff. But I think it's interesting that you, you say it was more like a marketing decision. Let's, let's just catch everybody's eye. 

Jason Kehl  30:38

Yeah. Yeah, 

Kris Hampton  30:40

I think that's cool. Did, did you do that with videos initially? You know, was that was that part of it? Like, let's, let's make some crazy videos that are different just to catch people's eye? Or did you just want to do something?

Jason Kehl  30:51

I'm just, I mean, just wanted to do something different and I know that it's not, you know, for the masses, necessarily.

Kris Hampton  30:59

Right.

Jason Kehl  31:00

 So my concepts aren't really, you know, taken, you know, it's more of the people who, you know, are the random weird climbers who are like, "Oh I really liked that video, because it was different", you know, and, and I feel like nowadays, there's less and less of that. Like when I started climbing, it was like, climbers were the people that were on the fringe all the time. 

Kris Hampton  31:22

Right, right.

Jason Kehl  31:23

 You know, now you get more and more random people who are climbing and they're just, you know, your average person who happens to climb, you know, they're not, diehard dirtbag or anything like that.

Kris Hampton  31:33

 Right. 

Jason Kehl  31:35

So I feel like I definitely have this niche of who is more interested in it. And that's fine. I mean, I like that, because those are the people I feel like I can relate to also. 

Kris Hampton  31:46

Sure, I bet. Do you, do you get any kind of pushback? Or do you ever hear any pushback from like, the, the more take themselves serious crowd?

Jason Kehl  31:56

 Sometimes, I mean, sometimes feel like, Oh, he's just looking for attention or something. 

Kris Hampton  32:01

Right. 

Jason Kehl  32:01

But I mean, I mean, I don't care. Like, I have your attention. Like I just want you to think about something differently and, and not watch the exact same climbigng video over and over. For a while, I didn't even watch climbing videos, because I was just so over it, you know, they're so bad.

Kris Hampton  32:21

Yeah, I've been the same way with hip hop for a lot of years. You know, I pick and choose what I listen to really carefully, but most of it's so bad and so boring that I just don't pay attention. 

Jason Kehl  32:33

Yeah. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  32:35

Especially when I'm trying to create something, I can't watch other videos. You know, I feel like, I'll, I'll play into their little box if I do.

Jason Kehl  32:43

 Yeah, yeah.

Kris Hampton  32:44

I was curious if you got pushback, because I remember the first time we had any contact was a long time ago and you were, you would come to Boone and it was kind of at the time when the internet was first getting started with climbers, you know, the first message boards were happening. And I, I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I think you sent some long standing project in Boone or something and you at the time, you were like black nail polish, you might have been wearing contacts, you know, white contacts or something at the time, I don't remember, but the Boone locals who were 

Jason Kehl  33:28

Yeah

Kris Hampton  33:28

You know, it was definitely kind of a take yourself serious crowd and they didn't want anyone to know about their projects and there was a bunch of pushback when you just came in, sent a project and left town, you know, and a bunch of people were talking about shit on the internet. And I, at the time, was really vocal on the internet. I just I don't know why, I would sit in my basement and just rant on the fucking internet. But, but I remember thinking, you guys are all just upset that this guy looks differently and, and climbs harder than you do. Like, there's a million people who are gonna be like that out there.

Jason Kehl  34:09

 Yeah,

Kris Hampton  34:09

You know, so I opened my mouth and you sent me a message after I went on this, you know, arguing with all these guys and you were like, "Hey, thanks for standing up for me". I didn't really know what to say. And it was kind of at a time when you were just bursting onto the scene, you know? So I was curious if any of that persisted or not?

Jason Kehl  34:28

No, I mean, not really and you know, stuff like that. I'm not one who obsesses over message boards at all. Like, you know, these Mountain Project, stuff like that.

Kris Hampton  34:41

I've learned my lesson too. I don't spend time there at all anymore.

Jason Kehl  34:43

Yeah, it's just like, Oh, do you hear people are freaking out on Mountain Project about this? I'm like, No, because I don't read it. It's a waste of my time.

Kris Hampton  34:50

 Yep.

Jason Kehl  34:52

 Yeah, I mean, I just let that stuff kind of roll off my back and focus on the more positive stuff. And yeah, its always like, I'm like people really get all worked up about that? Like, really? And then that's when you feed back into it and it just gets worse and worse and worse. 

Kris Hampton  35:11

Yeah. Big vicious cycle. 

Jason Kehl  35:13

Yeah,like you can say what you want to say. Like, I don't, I don't need to argue with you about it like,

Kris Hampton  35:18

Yeah, and I'm glad you don't hear much of that anymore. You know, I would I would expect not because I think it's, you've put enough amazing content out there that I don't think there's even an argument anymore. 

Jason Kehl  35:30

Yeah

Kris Hampton  35:31

 I think that people were nervous about it initially, when climbing was this protected thing, that they were they thought was this sacred thing that no one else could do with them. You know, but I'm glad

Jason Kehl  35:43

 I still get that, "What's on that guy's head?" I still get those comments from time to time.

Kris Hampton  35:51

Hahahaha

Jason Kehl  35:51

 Yeah,  but from random people. But it's funny.

Kris Hampton  35:54

 Yeah, yeah, hilarious. Something I'm really interested in is, you know, you've used this hashtag, #stillyielding, or something to that effect, and you're out in Hueco, this place that a lot of people could call tapped out, you know. They would think there's not much left, but you're still putting up these super high quality lines all over the place. What, what allows you to see these things that other people don't? Because some of them aren't, you know, it's not like only the V15s left you know, 

Jason Kehl  36:28

Yeah or the sketchiest landings.

Kris Hampton  36:30

Right, right, 

Jason Kehl  36:31

Um, for one, it's definitely accessibility. Like, being a guide, you know, is awesome. I can explore. And, you know, having climbed here for so long, you know still I haven't, I haven't done all establish lines, obviously. Lke, there's just endless. But I think because Hueco Tanks is so amazing, that most people come here to repeat those classic lines. And I've been here enough that I've done a lot of them that I can and the ones that haven't, I need to put in a lot more work than I'm ready to right now. So, you know, I've chosen this other path. And there's tons of climbs out there. And, you know, people either aren't going looking for them, or you know, when they do go on tour, they're going to the, you know, the zone, The Maze or wherever, so, yeah, they can look around and see what's around there, but they're not going and like getting out to like the random stuff.

Kris Hampton  37:32

Gotcha.

Jason Kehl  37:34

 So yeah, there's, there's tons. I mean, especially if you want to hike around, and, you know, maybe there's not like 30 problems in the zone, but you know, you'll find a couple and yeah, it's like, endless. I mean, I haven't even seen everything you know. It's like I've seen like a cornerr of West really.

Kris Hampton  37:52

 Yep. And then in your conversation with John on Chalk Talk you, you mentioned that you'll come across lines and see them and it's a feature you've looked at before and just never recognized it as a rock climb, you know? How do you think that happens? What do you think enables you to see those things?

Jason Kehl  38:11

A lot of times it seems like some of those things just appear out of the blue. It's like how has that been there forever? Sometimes it's light. Like sometimes we'll be walking and you know, the light will be cutting into a cave at a certain angle and it'll like present that oh, there's a huge roof in there. Stuff like that, like all the time or just a different angle you're looking at it perspective. I was out yesterday over by Star Power and I looked up into this zone that I had been to and I remember being up in there and looking around and there really wasn't much. But I looked up again, I saw that there, on the backside of this one boulder, that I probably didn't get to, there is a really nice looking streaked wall. I'm like, oh, man, I gotta hike back up there now, because that looks from down here, it looks awesome.

Kris Hampton  38:59

It feels like it could be endless here.

Jason Kehl  39:01

Yeah

Kris Hampton  39:01

Like you just look, every everywhere you go, you can look around and see another feature you want to go check out.

Jason Kehl  39:08

Yeah. And also like, the people who have explored Hueco in the past, you know, like, in the 90s or whatever, like the level of climbing was, you know, at a certain point. So now people are stronger and you know, we can do more and so instantly there's more available and it's all that same good Hueco rock.

Kris Hampton  39:31

Yeah, and the climbing is different too. I was talking to John Sherman the other day, and he said something really interesting that I had never considered. That he went and looked at The Rhino the other day, which is a compression problem, you know, right near Diaphanous Sea, right in that little cavern, and he said back when he was exploring around and looking for problems, he never would have recognized that as a rock climb. 

Jason Kehl  39:57

Mm hmm 

Jason Kehl  39:58

He was looking for holds not features.

Kris Hampton  39:58

Because

Kris Hampton  40:00

 Yeah. Because compression just wasn't a thing. It wasn't, "feature climbing" wasn't really a thing. And I wonder sometimes if the, you know, what we do indoors with these big features doesn't transfer over to the way we see rock outside. You know, and I think that while we don't do a ton of the parkour style sort of climbing outside, there is some but not a ton of it, I do think it's interesting that we've gone more in this big features, look like interesting features to climb.

Jason Kehl  40:34

Well, yeah. And a lot of times you walk up in there are no holds. 

Kris Hampton  40:37

Right, right. Yeah, totally. 

Jason Kehl  40:39

You're just squeezing your way through it. So yeah, that totally makes sense with what John's saying. But yeah, the whole like, the run and jump thing that's going on now. Like, I mean, every comp has a run and  jump now. It's like a little too much.

Kris Hampton  40:59

Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely popular.

Jason Kehl  41:02

But um...I mean, that stuff exists. It's just really hard to find. And it's really hard to like, find a scenario that that exists in reality. You know, a lot of times you can be like, Okay, let's do this because it's fun, it's kind of an eliminate type thing. But like to actually find like a swooping ramp that you can run up that ends in a hueco or something like that, like those things are really hard to find. And I'm sure they're out there. And I'm sure the more people are climbing like that, we will find stuff. 

Kris Hampton  41:31

Yep. I just saw Matt Wilder's video the other day of his, you know, Hueco Warped Wall, that was pretty much exactly that. It looked like an American Ninja Warrior Warped Wall to a jug. 

Jason Kehl  41:42

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  41:44

Looks super interesting. But I have to bring up the trampoline now, so

Jason Kehl  41:46

Oh yeah.

Kris Hampton  41:47

Talk to me about that. How did that come about?

Jason Kehl  41:50

Well, that came about, like, I've known about the problem for a while and it did kind of come about for like a video concept. You know, I was like, I would love to shoot that and to make it fun. You know, I was thinking before I was like, Oh, yeah, you know, go into some ghetto El Paso thrift shop and you like walk out with this trampoline. Because, you know, it could be done in many, many ways. Like, you could have your friends toss you up there.

Kris Hampton  42:17

Right

Jason Kehl  42:17

Like you could stack

Kris Hampton  42:18

Stack a bunch of pads.

Jason Kehl  42:19

Yeah, you could find something to get you up there. But that was just more, you know, okay, let's have fun with it. And yeah, yeah, it's kind of super random. And I told Nathaniel about the idea. He was like, Oh, yeah, definitely. Let's do that. I was like, okay, like, easy, we'll go do that.

Kris Hampton  42:38

Was it at all poking fun at the, you know, American Ninja Warrior stuff?

Jason Kehl  42:42

No, no, not at all. Not at all. And I would love to poke fun at that if I could. But no, it wasn't. It was just a means. You know, it was how can we get there? This is how we get there. It's kind of funny. Maybe if I was poking fun at that, I would, you know, I would have ran in from the other room and had a bandana on or something. I don't know. But yeah, it was more of just necessity. And yeah, yeah.

Kris Hampton  43:07

Yeah, I think it's awesome because it's, it speaks to that we all draw our own personal line where our limits are. You know, you hear people all the time, like, Oh, you can't you can't stack two pads to start this boulder problem. You have to do it off one pad, you know, or the sit start is easier and then it doesn't count. So there's all the odd rules that that I just shake my head at.

Jason Kehl  43:35

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  43:35

And I'm like, I'll just do it however I want to do it 

Jason Kehl  43:37

 Yeah. And I mean, that's what matters in the end.

Kris Hampton  43:39

And that's that, you know. But so when I saw the trampoline, I was like, this is amazing, because some people are gonna be like, oh, that, you know, that can't count as a rock climb. It's not real if you used a trampoline. 

Jason Kehl  43:52

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  43:52

But then they would gladly just stack pads and grab the hold, you know. So, I don't know. I think it I think it speaks to that and I appreciate that for sure.

Jason Kehl  44:01

Yeah. And it's, I mean, it was fun. People remember that. And like, yeah, it's cool.

Kris Hampton  44:08

 Does any of what you do outside carry over into your gym designs? Like the things, the features you see outside?

Jason Kehl  44:15

For sure. Yeah. I mean, yes, just in the fact that I'm, you know, always looking for interesting shapes outside. But at the same time, I really look at a lot of like architectural stuff and just like patterns, or you know, like the spirals and stuff like that, and I really like that kind of flowing design. A lot of gym designs are more purposeful, where they're like, okay, we want to have this angle, this angle, this angle and then what goes on between those angles, we really don't care.

Kris Hampton  44:15

Right. Just big filler walls,

Jason Kehl  44:28

Just to fill in there. But I'm trying to do something that you know more flows throughout the whole design and makes sense and is also useful, practical, you know. You can put more than like one hold on a panel or something. 

Kris Hampton  45:06

Yeah. Yeah. All these little panels that constantly change angles.

Jason Kehl  45:09

 Yeah. But yeah, I'm having tons of fun with it, like, I love any kind of design and

Kris Hampton  45:18

Did you have a background in that?

Jason Kehl  45:21

In actual, like, design?

Kris Hampton  45:22

Any sort of design, anything like that.

Jason Kehl  45:24

Anything like that? Uh, no, but you know, I went to college for all the arts like photography, sculpture, painting, everything like that. So I have a base. But as far as technical, you know, computer programs and stuff like that, I kind of just taught myself. And it was definitely a slow process, because there aren't a lot of tutorials for abstract design. It's more, oh, here's how to do a sketch up coffee table, or how to build a room, that's square, you know.

Kris Hampton  45:54

Right, right.

Jason Kehl  45:56

So that was hard. And I think, between the first gym, which is Golden Earth Treks, and the second one, Crystal City, like that, I went from, you know, doing probably, like 75% of it, and then having to get help from the Walltopia designers to the Crystal City, it was like 99.9% all my design. I just handed it to them and it was done. And it was just a matter of understanding the program.

Kris Hampton  46:24

Yeah. And how do you approach that? Do you kind of learn its technical aspects? Do you go through the coffee table tutorials first? 

Jason Kehl  46:34

Yeah, to some extent and learn how to tweak them. And a lot of times, you know, with a lot of programs, you know, there's more than one way to get to a certain situation, you know, it's what is the easiest. Same with video editing, or whatever. I did have some help from Jason Thomas, who is the Eldo designer, and he kind of helped me through, you know, learning certain techniques. And, you know, I'd meet with him, he's like, Well, what do you want to do? Like, what are you trying to do? And I'm like, I'm not trying to do anything. I want to understand everything, so I can do what I want to do, you know. And I think, with computer programs and stuff like that, it's just, you know, there's a lot of hidden, hidden things that you can learn. So yeah, once I was able to, to learn how to manipulate it, then now you can do anything you want, basically,

Kris Hampton  47:22

Right. And I think climbing is a lot like that. And I kind of see that in your climbing too. Because, you know, what, you become a, you know, to use the word loosely, but you master the technical side of rock climbing, and you and you test yourself by repeating, you know, recognized classes that are already established. And once you've mastered that, and understand it, and can, can start to... it makes it easier to think outside the box. You know, and I think that's true with all the arts, you know, and I definitely view climbing as one of the arts.

Jason Kehl  48:01

 True. True. And strength is, is you know, your palette of, you know, what you can do. And my thing is always, you know, like, oh, they're like, "Oh, this guy so strong" or "So and so is strong". I'm like, everyone is strong. What can you do with your strength?

Kris Hampton  48:15

Yeah, totally.

Jason Kehl  48:16

You know, everyone is strong. Like, it's like, what are you doing with it? You know, you're, you're not doing anything that's benefiting climbing as a whole. You're, you know, you're just going out and doing some random stuff. It's like, okay, I've seen that for years. It's not impressive. But, you know, the guy that's going out there and using his strength to show us something new, that's what's cool to me.

Kris Hampton  48:38

Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be as far outside of the boxes as you approach things. But I think that, you know, there are all sorts of ways to, to be a little different or to tell a story. I think, I think storytelling is really, really important. And, and without storytelling, it just becomes, you know, almost a pointless activity.

Jason Kehl  49:03

Yeah, just like, watch me. Look at what I'm doing.

Kris Hampton  49:05

Yeah. And I hear people all the time, like, like, climbing is, is pointless. We're not helping the world or not changing the world, you know? I'm like, well, we kind of are. If we're telling our story, and other people are relating to it, then you know, little bits at a time, we are making a difference. I think that's super important. 

Jason Kehl  49:24

And yeah, giving someone something that they're like, I didn't even realize that people do that, or that's possible or you know, like, 

Kris Hampton  49:32

Right, or someone's been looking for for an outlet for themselves and they see your video and they're like, Oh, this ya know, this guy's doing it different.

Jason Kehl  49:39

I want to do this

Kris Hampton  49:40

 Yeah, and I want to do something different too.

Jason Kehl  49:41

Yeah, and it's peaceful. We're not hurting anyone. We are you know, I think expanding our own mind

Kris Hampton  49:47

 Other than ourselves. We are hurting ourselves.

Jason Kehl  49:49

Haha I know lot of people who are like, "Why do you do that to yourself?". Because I don't want to sit on the couch and just become a potato. 

Kris Hampton  49:59

Yeah, and you just said strength is part of your palette. And that's, that's something I want to talk to you about for sure is that, you know, like I mentioned earlier, you said in your podcast with John that getting becoming a better climber opens up more doors. 

Jason Kehl  50:14

Mm hmm. 

Kris Hampton  50:14

You know, how do you approach becoming a better climber?

Jason Kehl  50:19

By climbing more, I think. I'm not really one to train at all, like, I have trained in the past, I definitely like put my time in training. And at certain times, I've trained more. Lke, when I had my knee surgeries, like, I did a lot of finger training and stuff like that. Um, but nowadays, it's like, I'm fueled by my passion. And my passion is the line and the beauty of the line. And so I find something that is so beautiful that I want to do anything I can do, including mutate my body, to get up the rock.

Kris Hampton  50:51

 Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  50:52

So that's, that's the goal. The end goal is, you know, okay, I see this. I know I can do it. It has to be done. Like, what can I do to get there? And I haven't necessarily like, you know, trained for specific problems. Yeah, maybe I need more endurance or whatever, like that. But I find that you know, just going to the problem repeatedly, and you know, getting a workout on the problem, or, you know, I'm like, Oh, I'm falling at the last move, you know, I need to do the last part, like seven times today, and then take a rest day and go do some other stuff and come back. So I think I'm fueled more by, by that nowadays, than being like, okay, I want to climb hard. I want to flash V10s. I want to do this. You know, I don't think about that as much.

Kris Hampton  51:44

 Sure.

Jason Kehl  51:44

 As I'm more goal oriented, as I see this line, I fell in love with it and now I need to do it.

Kris Hampton  51:51

Yeah. When you have that goal, do you do change things in the rest of your life to reach that goal? Like are you resting more than you normally would?

Jason Kehl  52:01

I mean, sure, yeah, you'll like, you know, restructure your, you know, you're climbing around it. Yeah. But not in the way that oh, you know, I need to be on a diet to send this or I need to....

Kris Hampton  52:15

Right. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that extreme for sure.

Jason Kehl  52:18

Yeah. But no, definitely.

Kris Hampton  52:20

I like donuts way too much to ever do that.

Jason Kehl  52:23

Yeah. Or find that, you know, you're working something and a lot of times, you know, you can work something too much. And you can start to the digress and you know, to having a rest day where you just go out and do a bunch of fun moderates, I think, you know, just loosens up your body. And yeah, I mean, mean climbing in general, it's about listening to your body. And even over, you know, so many years, you can't really learn what is the final answer all the time because one, your body is always changing. But yeah, just listening to your body and understanding you know, what you need and that could be the point where oh, I'm going to send or I'm going to injure myself, you know.

Kris Hampton  53:07

When you when you climb on your home wall in here, are you, is it, are you trying to you know, do you have home wall projects? Are you trying harder things? What's your process look like?

Jason Kehl  53:19

Um, it's, it's mostly a creative process, like most of my climbing, but yeah, because the whole, the whole wall is covered in holds and there's a lot of options, we just go in there, and we make up something new every single time. And sure, I have some like, oh, I've tried this before, like, let's try and do it, you know, kind of projects, but I don't have any projects where I'm like, this is my home wall project. They kind of just come in and come out and a lot of times I forget about them.

Kris Hampton  53:50

 Sure. Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  53:51

And that's great because you know, it, it's this canvas. You walk in there, you're like, what can we do today? Some days, you're not so creative, and it's not as fun and other days you just have a blast in there, you know. Like and that's interesting, too. And it's, you know, hard to be psyched every single day. It's hard to be creative every single day.

Kris Hampton  54:12

No doubt. Yeah. Impossible. 

Jason Kehl  54:15

Yeah, so when you do have those days, you're like, oh, wow, I'm making up great problems today. This is like super fun.

Kris Hampton  54:20

What do you do on those days when you don't feel creative? Do you just cut it off? What what's your.....

Jason Kehl  54:27

Um...I mean, sometimes. Sometimes yeah, for sure. Yesterday, we went climbing and we went on West and went to like the Devil's Butthole and Star Power and we're just feeling kind of tired and hot. And I'm like, Okay, let's go. Like, I don't care. Like, you know, we don't have to push it, you know.  Like, and I'm not really in a project mindset right now, after I just was gone for a week in Japan. I kind of feel like I stepped out of the realm and now I'm like, okay, I'm back. I gotta get repsyched again. But yeah, I think, you know, don't be too hard on yourself. If you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it, and another day you will feel it.

Kris Hampton  55:10

Yeah. I have a question. You seem like such a laid back guy all the time, you know, and there's definitely an intensity to you that, that I think a lot of that a lot of really creative people bring and in your videos, when you're climbing, the shots of you climbing, there's so much intensity. Is that, like, do you bring that to your projects? Is that more for the video? What's that?

Jason Kehl  55:42

Um....

Kris Hampton  55:42

I mean, it's almost, like, it's it's not anger. I won't call it anger, but it's an intensity.

Jason Kehl  55:48

 Yeah, it's directed anger, you know.

Kris Hampton  55:51

 Sure. Yeah. Okay.

Jason Kehl  55:52

 A lot of times, I'll climb with people, certain friends, I won't mention any names, and, you know, they fall off their project, and they get mad on the ground. You know, they hit the ground, and they're  screaming, and I'm like, why didn't you just do that up there?

Kris Hampton  56:07

Right, 

Jason Kehl  56:07

When you're still on the wall. You know, project that into the climbing. 

Kris Hampton  56:12

Use all that energy on the climb. 

Jason Kehl  56:13

Yeah, I think that's, I mean, that's what I like to do. I like to, you know, know when to turn it on, know when to relax, and know when to get aggressive. And, for me, I have to try hard to succeed. You know, I'm not like, the best climber in the world. Like, things are hard and if I don't try my hardest, I'm not gonna do it. 

Kris Hampton  56:33

Right. Right.

Jason Kehl  56:36

 Yeah, so I think that just knowing when to turn it on, and, you know, the end goal for me is to succeed and I have to get into that mindset sometimes to succeed.

Kris Hampton  56:48

 Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  56:49

Um, but yeah, I like to, you know, be pretty low key and pretty calm. Like, I'm a pretty, you know, unaffected guy. Like, I don't let things stress me out. If something is bad, like, okay, that's what it is. But yeah, at a certain point, like in the wobbler in the video, I've been working this way too long and yeah, just, yeah, get pushed to a certain point. 

Kris Hampton  57:17

Yeah, I think I thought, I found it really interesting that you step on in these videos, and it's like, this pure fierceness just, you know, explodes. 

Jason Kehl  57:30

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  57:31

 It was really cool to see. And I hear it, you know, Annalissa tells me all the time, and every actually everybody I know, brings it up at some point that I'm pretty quiet, laid back, you know, same as you, pretty unaffected by things. And but then once I have a microphone in my hand, I can flip the switch and turn it on and do whatever the hell I want to do at that point. You know, and there's a lot more intensity, and vibrance when I have a microphone in my hands.

Jason Kehl  58:00

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  58:01

 So I thought it was interesting to see that happen on the climb. And I like that you. You take that emotion that a lot of people let out on the ground afterwards and put it up on the climb.

Jason Kehl  58:12

Yeah, a lot of times, like, it's hard to get to that point that you allow yourself to try that hard. And a lot of times, I feel that, like, it's strange, because you know, your strongest when you first arrive, and you're ready to send, but I'll have to fail so much to push me to that mental point where I'm like, okay, it's, it's done. Like, I gotta just, you know, suck it up and do it. And the fact is, I'm way too tired to do it. 

Kris Hampton  58:40

Sure. 

Jason Kehl  58:41

And I should have, you know, turned it on, like an hour ago. But I had to get pushed to that point of failure and that that point of like, okay, you're not going to do this now. Now, I have to turn it on, you know. I have no other option. And you know, that's the key. It'd be cool to tap into that early on, but sometimes I don't hit that point until the very end of the day. The last try. I'm so exhausted. And that's it, you know, turns you into something else. It's, it's kind of interesting. 

Kris Hampton  59:10

Have you tried to figure out how to turn it on earlier?

Jason Kehl  59:13

 Yeah, like bite a piece of wood or something?

Kris Hampton  59:15

Hahahaha

Jason Kehl  59:19

 Yeah, definitely. And sometimes, sometimes you can, and sometimes you can't, and I've even had moments, you know, I love that point in the problem where you lose it. Everything is gone. You hit a 

Kris Hampton  59:35

In the zone

Jason Kehl  59:35

Yeah in the zone. I love that. Like, that's the perfect climbing mentality because you're not thinking anymore. You're just reacting. And sometimes you can't get get there. Like I've been on, I've been sending my projects before and been so much in my head, that it was just driving me crazy. You know, I was like, sticking the next move and I'm like, Oh, no, I'm gonna do this. I'm like, Oh, no, like, is this really happening? 

Kris Hampton  59:57

Right. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  59:58

 Yeah, we were just talking last night. And I had realized years ago that I do have a trigger to be able to flip that switch, to turn on that other person when I have a microphone in my hand. And for me, and this obviously, most likely wouldn't work for climbing, but for me, if I put on a hat I would never wear or an outfit I wouldn't normally wear, I can become that other person really quickly.

Jason Kehl  59:58

 Like what if my foot slips? Like too much in your head. And it's not until you know, your foot slips or something, and you have to try extra hard that you know, you yell and that all that just releases and triggers that state. And then yeah, you're back into that, like just going for it mindset. Yeah, I mean, that's I guess the whole goal is to be able to flip that switch and go for it, you know.

Jason Kehl  1:00:50

 Mm hmm.

Kris Hampton  1:00:51

 You know, and that's been, and I said it last night and Annalissa was like, I've noticed that. You wear hats, you know, you wear ball caps at every big event. And I'm like, yeah, I never wear them otherwise, especially like flat billed hats. You know, it is just, it's not me. But if I put that on, while I have a microphone in my hand, I can be someone else, you know. So I wonder how much putting the video camera on you and knowing that you're gonna create something else out of it can allow you to turn that switch on.

Jason Kehl  1:01:22

 Yeah, a bit, a bit

Kris Hampton  1:01:23

 Because I see it in a lot of videos

Jason Kehl  1:01:24

 Or having people around. Because, you know, sometimes you're climbing by yourself and it's, it's harder to turn it on. Because there's not people being like, Oh, come on, come on. Um, and yeah, it's definitely connected. Because here's one thing, every time I'm trying my project, and it's super strange, it's like, I'm connected with the video is that, you know, I walk over there, and I push record on the camera. As soon as I push that button I know I can't back away. You know, it's not like, when I'm at the base of the climb, and I pull on the climb. It starts soon as I press that button, I'm like, shit, I just, you know, engaged the situation. Like I have to get on and do it now. I can't back out. Like it's super weird. I start to get nervous. I'm like, push record and I walk over there. I'm like, I'm gonna be on the wall in like 15 seconds and I just have to do it, you know? Yeah, it's strange.

Kris Hampton  1:02:21

That might be your telephone booth. 

Jason Kehl  1:02:23

Yeah, a little bit. 

Kris Hampton  1:02:24

Superman changes into 

Jason Kehl  1:02:26

Yeah, but at the same time, I don't like it. I'm always like, because I'm, I'm getting nervous before the fact that it's even starting. 

Kris Hampton  1:02:33

Yeah. 

Jason Kehl  1:02:33

Because I know that is the real start, you know, like, you can't turn back now.

Kris Hampton  1:02:39

 Yeah, I think that's super interesting. 

Jason Kehl  1:02:41

Yeah and I try not to have any, you know, like, too much projection of success or anything like that.

Kris Hampton  1:02:49

And here we are talking about it, so now it's going to taint the whole thing.

Jason Kehl  1:02:52

Haha no, so many friends are like, oh, how do you feel today? You think you can send you know? You psyched? And like, well, I guess I'll know when I'm standing on top, you know. I don't ever go and be like, yeah, I'm like, you know, I don't want to get too hyped up and like, just remain calm and like 

Kris Hampton  1:03:10

Yeah, those expectations can be a killer. You know, there there are definitely times when I've been like, I'm gonna send today.

Jason Kehl  1:03:15

Yeah, that you know. Yeah, you know you are going to send

Kris Hampton  1:03:16

It's gonna happen today. But more often than not it's more about okay, I just need to you know, this might be possible. I need to try really hard to make it possible and then it happens, you know?

Jason Kehl  1:03:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:03:31

What's what's next? Where are you taking the creative force that is Jason Kehl from here?

Jason Kehl  1:03:37

Definitely tons of Hueco projects that it is just a matter of time and weather and skin. 

Kris Hampton  1:03:43

Yeah. And we'll get the videos eventually because you're on your new social media blackout times.

Jason Kehl  1:03:49

Yeah. I'm trying to share more with the world this year. I have a love hate relationship for sure. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  1:03:57

I think it's good to have.

Jason Kehl  1:03:58

Yeah, too much. It's just too much. But I am doing tons of new holds. Like I have lists of things that I need to do for So iLL, some new volumes.

Kris Hampton  1:04:11

Do you shape for other people as well or is it mostly So iLL?

Kris Hampton  1:04:14

And you guys seem like a good marriage. 

Jason Kehl  1:04:14

I'm not currently just because I have so much to do that...um, I would like to at some point but yeah, I just have like a list of things that need to get done. 

Jason Kehl  1:04:20

Yeah, yeah. They kind of let me do what I want. They trust that, you know, I have a good idea and we bounce stuff off each other for sure. But yeah, it's great. And more gym design stuff. I'm working, just finished off another Earth Treks that's in Columbia, Maryland, which was the original. They're redoing it, the whole the whole thing. And I'm doing a gym in Truckee, California, which is going to be awesome. It's High Altitude Fitness. They have a gym in Tahoe in incline Village right now. 

Kris Hampton  1:05:01

Nice.

Jason Kehl  1:05:02

That's like any day now. But yeah, trying to do more gym stuff.

Kris Hampton  1:05:07

I'm glad that you've taken all these creative things, you know that you're interested in and rolled them into this, this lifestyle, career that you've got.

Jason Kehl  1:05:16

Yeah, I mean, I'm glad that I can be a climber in all these different aspects of climbing because, you know, when I became a climber, it's like, all I want to do is climb. I want to be like, the epitome of what a climber is, you know, and,

Kris Hampton  1:05:32

And back then there wasn't that, these obvious paths to making a living that way.

Jason Kehl  1:05:37

Yeah, for sure and it's not like you're letting yourself down. But you know, to get a real job or a climbing unrelated job, you know, I wouldn't be as psyched for sure, you know. And it's cool that there are all these ways to still be a climber and do other things.

Kris Hampton  1:05:55

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that you're out there doing it. Keeps me stoked to see somebody rolling it all into one like that.

Jason Kehl  1:06:01

Thanks.

Kris Hampton  1:06:02

Yeah. Thanks for having me over, man. I appreciate it

Jason Kehl  1:06:04

Yeah, definitely.

Kris Hampton  1:06:08

Big thanks to Jason for having me over to his house and sitting down taking time out. He's obviously a busy guy. I mean, he's shaping holds, designing gyms, constantly putting up first ascents and I don't know how he fits it all in frankly. And if you haven't seen his most recent Hueco video that I believe was put out by Friction Labs, I've got it posted up on the page on our site for this podcast. So you should definitely go check that out. You know #stillyielding. That's his hashtag and he just keeps finding new things in Hueco, a place that boulderers have been calling climbed out for a long, long time. So the guy's got more creative energy than he knows what to do with and he puts it to really, really good use. And you should go to cryptochild.com and learn more about Jason. Like I said, if you're not hip to his videos, go check those out, definitely puts a lot of his creative energy into those and I for one, really, really appreciate that he that he does that. And that he's throughout all these years, he's kept true to himself and he's kept his integrity and, and he's been able to build this, this pretty cool, pretty important, I think, brand in this in this world of climbing. So, so again, big thanks to Jason cryptochild.com. Go check him out. You guys, don't forget to go leave a review. We need 12 more. And if I get those 12,I've got a whole bunch of really, really badass women on the podcast coming up. And I'll just drop those like crazy because I've got a bunch of them. And I really want to, to share these things with you guys. So 12 more reviews. Go do it. I told you guys, we've got some events coming up. So just a couple of weeks, Thursday, July 13, I will be here at the International Climbers Festival at the Lander Bake Shop from 3 to 6pm. And I'll be hosting a conversation with Steve Bechtel, Neely Quinn, Eric Horst and Arno Illgner. So you guys should if you're in the area, please come over. I would love to see you. Come say hi. And we'll be taking questions. Of course, we're going to be all on a panel. So come and see us talking all about training. Also, Nate and I will be in Milwaukee Adventure Rock for the Midwest Training For Climbing Conference, the first annual and you guys should go to the website and sign up right now. So you can get $100 off the early bird special until July 15 I believe. So go sign up there at midwesttcc.com. Nate and I are going to be releasing our new body tension drills. We've been talking about rooting. That's where you're going to learn it first, so please please come out and work with us. We'll be doing a bunch of workshops and if you want to support the podcast, you want more episodes, the We Scream Like Eagles Podcast is now live. You can find out more at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Hope to see you guys over there. I hope to see you at the Facebooks. I hope to see you at the Instagrams and the Pinterest. I'm not gonna see you at the Twitter's because we don't tweet. We scream like eagles.