Episode 22: Integrated Strength Training with Steve Bechtel

Honorary Co-Host Steve Bechtel is back, this time talking about his concept of Integrated Strength Training. What is that, you ask? Well, lucky for you, we discuss it at length. So listen. Then apply. Then get stronger. It's that simple, right?  

As always, you can find Steve at: www.climbstrong.com

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:31

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 22 of the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com actually tried to record this intro a couple of times and false started and realized I hadn't had any coffee this morning. So now I'm caffeinated. And I'm good to go. I am sitting here at my friend Paul Morley's house in Chattanooga, exactly in the spot where I started this thing, damn near a year ago, we've got about two weeks before our year birthday, maybe not even that long, maybe 10 days, something like that. And if you were thinking about getting as a birthday gift, then a rating and a review on iTunes, iTunes would be great. I'm told that those ratings and reviews are the most important part of the algorithm that gets you in front of new people. So there's that. That's all I know about it. And we really appreciate the reviews. We've gotten some really great ones. One here I'm looking at right now from the dirtbag dad, that says if you're a climber looking to explore focused and programmatic training, that's a good word. By the way, go no further intelligent, funny and real. Every episode has had at least one key takeaway for me that has proven very useful. There's a whole new dimension out there from my climbing, looking forward to taking it to a new level. Plus, the theme music is awesome and well chosen. Thanks dirtbag dad, we appreciate that. And we appreciate all your support. I see you out there on the Instagrams. So thanks for that. Yeah, and if you you know, if you're one of those people that insists on buying a gift, because giving us a rating, and review doesn't cost you anything, then you can become a patron. You can go to our website, powercompanyclimbing.com click on the podcast tab, become a patron or you can click on apparel and buy a T shirt. All those things help they all go back into making this podcast better. And our website better. And yeah, just it goes to good things for you. And this this year, I've been thinking a lot about this. And Nate and I were talking recently. And the most surprising thing, besides the fact that it's been a year already is that we've really built this cool community. So thank you guys for that. That means a ton. And everywhere I go, people recognize the Power Company and want to talk about the Power Company. And I think that's a pretty, pretty awesome thing. So thanks to you guys. I'm not gonna ramble too much here. Again, I'm caffeinated. So I could go forever if I just let that happen. Instead, I'm gonna get into today's talk with none other than fan favorite Steve Bechtel. We recorded this this past summer and Lander. And I'm not going to tell you what it's about because we've got, you know, nearly an hour of Steve telling you what it's about. There is one there's a break in the middle where we were in Steve's gym and someone came to the door that he had to go talk to so there's an abrupt break in the middle. That's why. All right, see you guys on the other side.

Steve Bechtel  03:52

You know, perfection is achieved when there's nothing else to take away. And and that's that's a really good general framework of your climbing training.

Kris Hampton  04:22

Like your first official gig as co host here. Gonna call this the Steven and Kris show from now on, we'll be...

Steve Bechtel  04:34

You know, we can get pretty boring in a big hurry. Just you and me talking.

Kris Hampton  04:39

I don't know I'm just gonna let you talk that way. It doesn't get boring. So what I'm what I really want to talk to you about today is this. It's something you've mentioned in a couple of other podcasts. And we've kind of we've been on other topics so we've just moved past it but what you're calling integrated strength, strength training, basically mixing something like a deadlift left with bouldering or with hang boarding or something to that effect. So yeah, basically, what's the, you know, I can think of a couple of good reasons to do it. But what's the the main reason you've seen?

Steve Bechtel  05:13

Well, the the whole problem with program design and you you probably get the same question i do is like, people go, Hey, Kris, can you help me design a training program? And because it gets complicated in a big hurry. And one of the things that climbers do is they start putting together a training program, and it starts turning into, well, when I was a kid, we called a monster cookies, you know, you have chocolate chips, and raisins, and m&ms, and syrup and jelly.

Kris Hampton  05:49

And it just sounds amazing.

Steve Bechtel  05:51

Yeah, right, that, but the more you add, the less likely the thing is to stay together. 

Kris Hampton  05:57

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  05:58

And, and so what, what I've run into with these training programs is you you'll run into a climber that's trying to develop many, many, many qualities all at once. And what we what we're trying to avoid is having so many adaptations, that we're trying to make that no adaptations take place. And so when I have a training program, that I've got an athlete that needs some basic athleticism, some strength, and they need to get their fingers stronger, and we are maybe bouldering, it's real hard to fit that in, in the given training cycle. 

Kris Hampton  06:41

Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  06:42

And so what we started looking at is, if I've got a guy that's lifting heavy on a deadlift, he needs to rest three to five minutes between sets. And normally what you do, I mean, the standard is to sit and read a magazine or...

Kris Hampton  07:01

Right.

Steve Bechtel  07:01

Or, you know, talk to somebody that you're training with, then the same thing happens in hangboard training, depending what you're doing. And depending on the training protocol, the really heavy strength stuff needs to have the same kind of rest, you know, three to five minutes between super heavy hangs, and and then I started looking at it and saying like, Okay, well wait a second, if, because of the layout of our facility, I can have my guy, go do a set of squats, then walk over and do a set on the hang board. And then I've still got plenty of time to recover in between and just wait and whatever else. So much time, in fact that we started adding in a third component in these in these programs, which was mobility training.

Kris Hampton  07:57

Right.

Steve Bechtel  07:58

 We it's very rare that I run into a climber that doesn't need mobility work. And when we say, "Oh, stretch between boulder problems, or stretch at the end or stretch at the end of the week." It doesn't happen. And anybody that does stretch a lot. Those are the guys that don't need it. And so, so if..

Kris Hampton  08:20

Those are the guys who want to do it more.

Steve Bechtel  08:22

Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like if you're, if you're great at something, you're gonna want to do it all the time. And so what we do is we sneak it in. And the way I lay I lay the sessions out is to do the hangboard set, strength set, and then a mobility set. And so we just we can pretty much just flow between those things at it at a normal pace, you don't need to be racing, you don't even need to be slowing yourself down. Because just the adjustment between those positions gives you enough recovery. By the time I get back to my my strength set, I'm probably pretty well recovered. And so our standard for a strength style session would be to do like three to five reps have a squat, for example, then a hangboard set, and then probably a minute to a minute and a half of a mobility exercise. So and then then you would do that three times through or something, it depends depending how much volume the athlete can handle. A typical athlete for me can do three groups of those three exercises, three times through in a 45 to 60 minute session. And so what that means is you're going to have a little circuit of strength exercise hangboard mobility, and you go through that three times. That takes about 15 minutes and then we would pick another strength exercise, another hangboard position, another mobility exercise.

Kris Hampton  10:05

Okay. 

Steve Bechtel  10:06

And we would do that group three times, that would take about 15 minutes, then we would do a third one. And that would be, you know, a third strength exercise, another hangboard set and another mobility set. So at the end of the, at the end of the workout, I've been able to do nine total sets on the hang board.

Kris Hampton  10:27

Right.

Steve Bechtel  10:28

 Usually about nine to 10 minutes of mobility training, which is that way more than...

Kris Hampton  10:33

That's huge. 

Steve Bechtel  10:33

Yeah. And then I've got that correct volume of the strength stuff. Because, again, if you were trying to be the world's best dead lifter, you'd need more deadlifting.

Kris Hampton  10:46

 Right.

Steve Bechtel  10:46

 But with this, I can have you do three sets of two, you can lift pretty darn heavy, and we move on to the next day. The difficulty people have with it is it feels too easy. 

Kris Hampton  10:59

Right.

Steve Bechtel  11:00

 But, but the numbers don't lie. And and after somebody goes through the program for six weeks, you know, a couple days a week, we've got some really good numbers and some great finger strength out of it. So I'm really happy with the plan.

Kris Hampton  11:14

 Hmm, cool. How would you you had mentioned using deadlifting with bouldering as a particularly in your book in the most recent book? How would you integrate that it? Would it be the same sort of thing with, do you keep a timer for your bouldering? Or is it a number of moves that you're aiming at? What's the goal?

Steve Bechtel  11:35

Uh, there's a there's a couple ways and it depends on what the goal of the bouldering session is, we if we're doing a limit bouldering this like super high level, I don't like to have anything else mixed in with it. And, and that's a very tough, tough way to train because hard bouldering with your friends is fun. But it's very often gets directed away from your specific training needs. 

Kris Hampton  12:10

Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  12:10

And I think that the you know, one of the best things in the world is the guy in his in his shed working boulder problems all by himself late into the night, because it allows the athlete to really focus on what he needs. It doesn't the pacing isn't wrong. An athlete training alone tends to rest enough. And you don't get hijacked by somebody else's goals. And that that very frequently, in any group of climbers, there's going to be one guy that always dictates where they where they boulder, how late they go, what time they leave all those sorts of things. 

Kris Hampton  12:49

Yeah, not to mention your own ego, which is...

Steve Bechtel  12:51

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  12:51

Which is a pretty tough thing to ignore.

Steve Bechtel  12:53

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  12:54

You know, I definitely found this winter, this winter was the first time I ever bought bouldered solo outside. And it made a big difference for me to go out and do solo sessions where I could really just dig into a problem and not not give a damn what anybody else thinks. And you know, even though I tried to let go of my ego in the gym, yeah, I definitely noticed sometimes that it's happening.

Steve Bechtel  13:17

 Yeah. And I think that's one of the great things about having a training plan. And, and a log that says, "My goal today is to do you know, 25 touches on the, on the campus board, I'm going to be doing, you know, 1-4-6 and I'm doing that on my left and right side." It's very, very clear and it doesn't turn into like, you know, testosterone driven 

Kris Hampton  13:46

bro session. 

Steve Bechtel  13:47

Yeah, like you know, then you pretty soon we're invading Troy. There's, like, all all bad things come from guys competing with each other. 

Kris Hampton  13:57

Yeah, no kidding. Okay, so with limit bouldering you don't like to add it in when bouldering do you add this? 

Steve Bechtel  14:06

Um, I I think bouldering is really useful as a as a slightly less than maximum intensity session, where we would go back, say if your limit bouldering level is V9 V10. This way you'd be working V5 two V7 problems. Things you could do in 1 to 3 goes where you're still having to work your technique pretty hard.

Kris Hampton  14:31

Yeah. Gives you a chance to really focus on perfecting what you're doing.

Steve Bechtel  14:35

Yeah. And I really like that that format like we go in and we work a boulder problem. And I like to have an athlete even if they send it work it until they do the movement. Perfect. Perfection-ly

Kris Hampton  14:51

Perfectionaly.

Steve Bechtel  14:53

So yeah, they want to do perfect, right? They've they've gone.

Kris Hampton  14:56

I need different co host.

Steve Bechtel  14:57

They, I know I'm like the Sarah Palin, co host.

Kris Hampton  15:05

Oh, boy.

Steve Bechtel  15:06

anyway, so so you do this problem, like you send your V7 second go, but your feet cut. Well, let's work it again until the movement is perfect, it's low enough level that you can work on your technique. And recognize movement errors, but it's hard enough that you're actually getting something out of the climbing. Sure, if we were climbing on V0, it wouldn't, you wouldn't be getting those same, the same values. And so maybe we'll have an athlete do spend 15 minutes on one problem, and maybe they'll they'll do it three, four or five times. At that point, then you could say, okay, we're taking off the shoes, we're gonna go in, we're gonna do a set of deadlifts, a little bit of stretching, center, deadlifts, another little bit of stretching, and then we'd go back into the bouldering gym. That the thing with climbing, although we all agree that climbing is the best climbing, you know, training anywhere. It's so damaging and taxing on on the fingers, you know, skin wise, joints, you name it, we're always limited by by the, the end of the kinetic chain, so to speak. And so I think if you can take these intense bouldering sessions, and break them up, and come back in fresh after, you know, like, deadlifting isn't easy.

Kris Hampton  16:34

Right.

Steve Bechtel  16:34

 If you go away from it, and go do something else that's keeping you active and warmed up, come back in, and you can you can give it more intensity. And so I think that that's a, I think that's a really valuable thing about integrating other sorts of training with with a climbing session.

Kris Hampton  16:50

And I like it too, not just for the sake of, you know, if you don't have enough time, this is a good way to get everything in. But also, because when you're filling your available time, you're much less likely to have a bunch of junk training thrown in there. 

Steve Bechtel  17:06

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  17:06

And if you can get rid of that stuff, that's a big win.

Steve Bechtel  17:09

Yeah. Well, and and we've we've talked about that before, where, you know, perfection is achieved when there's nothing else to take away.

Kris Hampton  17:17

 Right. 

Steve Bechtel  17:18

And, and that's, that's a really good general framework of your climbing training. We've all had enough long layoffs from training like your shoulder surgery last year, I had a finger injury a couple years ago, that that kept me out for the better part of a year. And you still come back from it. And so if we were to say, Okay, I'm not going to do any hangboard training for the next two months, and all I'm going to work on is my technique, and I'm just going to climb on easy stuff and work on heel hooks and drop knees or whatever your your biggest need is, it's like, give me a break, like, three months later, your finger strikes going to be right back where it was.

Kris Hampton  18:04

Right.

Steve Bechtel  18:04

 And all of a sudden, you've developed this new skill. Um, we don't want to tap our adaptation potential in too many ways. Because if you if you can spend your physical currency, so to speak, working on some very, very specific and discrete things, you're going to see notable gains there. And, and I think that that's, you know, going back to this original example, is too many different, like things I'm trying to learn or trying to improve on, they really start to tap us and especially as we get older.

Kris Hampton  18:43

Yeah, I think that I think that's a really important point. This, you know, this past winter, shortly after coming off of my shoulder surgery, I spent most of my season, my training season focused only on learning to full crimp and learning to give 100% effort. And it rather than just trying super hard and doing, you know, or trying super hard problems and doing giant moves and things like that. Things that were going to hurt my shoulder. Instead, I focused on sort of my attitude coming into a problem and how to pull off the ground immediately giving 100% and I ended up you know, climbing three boulders harder than I'd ever climbed before. And that was coming right off a shoulder surgery at 41 years old. So there's definitely something to be said for just working on technique and just working on, you know, the more obtuse sides of of training. Yeah, because I couldn't hang board. I couldn't really lift weights much. 

Steve Bechtel  19:46

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  19:46

I did a lot of kettlebell swings, but I couldn't do anything overhead, you know, so.

Steve Bechtel  19:51

Yeah, and I think it's, I think it's interesting, you know, all all the movement pattern, stuff that we use in in weight training. You know, we, we always want to press we always want to pull, we always want to hinge and squat, well, I've got athletes that can't press overhead, or, or a great example, personally is I have a bad elbow that gets flared up by pulling by doing like overhead pulls, like pull, pull downs, pull ups. And so on paper, I should be doing pull ups in all of these sessions, I mean, you know, want to get stronger for climbing, pull up is a great exercise, I can't do it. And I haven't done a pull up short of, for one specific test in, gosh, eight years. And but it can still climb okay. And so even if we aren't addressing all of those things, or fear, you know, you've got a an athlete that's real nervous about, you know, not keeping their finger strength up or not, you know, addressing every single facet of their training, that the reality is that you're, we're very, very capable of climbing around those, those personal limitations.

Kris Hampton  21:06

 Very much so. So, other than the time constraint issue, you've also talked about the hormonal response that comes along with it. So let's talk a little about that.

Steve Bechtel  21:18

Yeah. So there's, there are a few pathways or ways that we get stronger, we improve our neurological firing, or, you know, what we'll call recruitment, they'll the physiologists will talk about rate coding. The, the way that that the muscle fibers align to fire appropriately, and they'll talk about some people will only recruit like 60% of the fibers in a given muscle ever, you know.

Kris Hampton  21:58

Right.

Steve Bechtel  21:59

 And so we can train to recruit more of those? Well, one of the ways that we gained strength and recover from strength is, is through the activity of like the endocrine system, through hormonal changes release of testosterone, growth hormone, etc. And what happens there is with strenuous activity, the hormonal activity generally increases. And there are certain things, and it was funny, it kind of came about this in a backward way. But the bodybuilders were talking about how if you were doing an arm day, and you're just doing curls, you wouldn't release enough of the hormones to to get the maximum gain out of their eyes. 

Kris Hampton  22:58

So you need to do some big muscle...

Steve Bechtel  23:00

Yeah, so they were saying you got to do some pull ups with it. And, and that'll increase your size. And it's like, you know, we laugh at bodybuilders all the time. But they've actually they're really, really dialed into what they're doing. 

Kris Hampton  23:11

Right.

Steve Bechtel  23:11

 And, and so I was like, okay, that's, that's kind of smart. And it just kind of got put in the back of my mind. But then I started thinking about climbers, trying to get stronger in the forearms, and like, we've got these guys. Like, basically, by the time you start getting interested in hangboard training, you're like at 85% of your max strength, like, you're...

Kris Hampton  23:32

Right

Steve Bechtel  23:33

...you're way up there. And so we've got these guys trying to buy 1% at a time. And I started thinking, wow, if we're not releasing enough hormone, I mean, because the forearm is a tiny group of muscles. And it's primarily endurance, muscle fiber. If we're not releasing these hormones, if we're not optimizing the hormone profile with that, with this weight training, they were maybe not getting the most out of a hang board session. And so I was trying to figure out a way to do hang boarding with intense bouldering session or whatever, and then it just sort of hit me. Oh, you know, if we, if we do weight training, we're not again, stressing those the structures of the finger and we can up this hormonal action. And really, it's funny, like, you know, I've got you doing a few sets of rack front squats with the kettlebells or something. Yeah, it's great for you to get stronger, increase your athleticism there, but really with the integrated strength. The hormonal thing is the whole reason we do it is because I want to get your fingers stronger. And it's great that we're also building general athleticism. And so so if we've got you know, good time constraint, good way to integrate, you know, weight training in with normal program, then it's a win win win straight across with, you know, especially when you include the mobility. But the facility is the challenge for most athletes.

Kris Hampton  25:12

Yeah, most people aren't going to have that though it is getting more and more popular for climbing gyms to have...

Steve Bechtel  25:17

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  25:18

... you know, barbells and plates and things like that. So.

Steve Bechtel  25:21

Yeah, and I think that, um, and one of the things that we've been working on is, we've got a lot of athletes doing this program. And we've been working on how do we make it happen at home? How can we, what are the bodyweight exercises that are going to going to help with this?

Kris Hampton  25:40

Right.

Steve Bechtel  25:41

Because if you can't have access to look, let me let me back up just a little bit. The way that we'll the movement patterns we'll use with a standard like three group integrated strength program will be a squat, a hip hinge and a press. And then we go, Okay, well, why not the pole? Well, because we're already pulling, we were doing the hangboard stuff, and then you're going to probably pull the next day when you're behind 

Kris Hampton  26:05

And we're climbers, and we pull...

Steve Bechtel  26:06

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  26:07

more than enough.

Steve Bechtel  26:08

 Yeah. And it's really rare that that we don't see people that that can pull, like that of all the movement patterns. That's where most of us are topped out on the on the on the standard assessment. And so so then I can if I need to get you hinging, we have some bodyweight variations on hinging. Yeah, you know, like the back bridges, the cook hip lift those sorts of things, right. Um not super great hormonally. Because we really do need to be lifting something heavy. But then when we get to the quads, jump squats, pistol squats, those start to run it up, and we can do those at home. Plus, almost everybody has a suitcase or duffel bag that they can fill with. Yep, and you know, do a bear hug squat or something. And then pressing, we can usually figure out a push up variation that's hard enough, or like a handstand style push up. There's there's various things that are bodyweight capable. Weights are weights are really convenient tools. But they're not absolutely necessary for.

Kris Hampton  27:14

With hedging with something like the kettlebell swing work?

Steve Bechtel  27:18

Yes. For sure. Most people, the kettlebell swing you, you have to learn to do it. Right. And then you have to learn to do it heavy. 

Kris Hampton  27:26

Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  27:27

And so I think for a normal guy, you'd probably want to be I mean, this is just spitballing it but I'd say you'd want to be swinging two thirds of your body weight, something like that. And if you're doing a one arm swing, that weight can go down. 

Kris Hampton  27:44

Yeah. 

Steve Bechtel  27:45

But again, with for just hormonal stuff, you're going to want to stick to the the heavy, because you know, the one arm string starts to be, you know, anti rotation, very, you know, like, nothing wrong with it and everything right with it as an exercise, but I don't...

Kris Hampton  28:00

Not as good for the hormonal response.

Steve Bechtel  28:01

 I don't think the loads quite as much, because it really does matter. Like how much you have to bear down on that. 

Kris Hampton  28:06

Right.

Steve Bechtel  28:06

 So no, and you know, learning the double kettlebell swing is good because most gyms won't have, you know, 140 pound kettlebell. So.

Kris Hampton  28:16

So, now, a lot of people, I know, hang board, and a lot of my clients do, and you and I've talked about this before that hang boarding after climbing is a good time to put the hang board in. If you're going to do this sort of protocol where you're, where you're doing integrated strength training with a hang board and a big lift and mobility. Would you still do that after climbing? Or is that just too much? Or if it's a low intensity session? Maybe but not a high intensity session?

Steve Bechtel  28:45

Well, yeah, so if the climbing day is low intensity, you could probably do an integrated strength session. And by definition, almost every integrated strength session is high intensity.

Kris Hampton  28:57

High intensity. 

Steve Bechtel  28:59

Because we, you know, when you're trying to develop finger strength, we've got to be putting the gas to the floor. Yeah. And so I think that it's probably more appropriate as a seasonal thing. And if we, if we talked about, or, or separating it out a little bit more. So say I'm on redpointing on Saturday, I could maybe do an integrated strength on Monday, and then climb again hard on Thursday, or climb again on Wednesday, and then having, you know, another training session on a less intense hang board session Wednesday night or Thursday. But, but the really hard integrated stuff, it takes a while to recover from probably 36 to 48 hours for a young person and then a little longer for guys like us.

Kris Hampton  29:49

 Yeah. And you said seasonally, how would you put it in seasonally?

Steve Bechtel  29:53

Well, and that's the that's the whole thing, right? We have it depends on how the climber behaves. If they have have a long offseason and a bad outdoor season. Like, it's, it's really great, you know, guy climbing in Cincinnati, you know that there's big chunks of the year that you're not going to Red.

Kris Hampton  30:14

Ror sure. 

Steve Bechtel  30:14

Um, and so then we can get really specific about the demands we're putting on the athlete from climbing. Lander is tough, because we can climb outside all the time. 

Kris Hampton  30:24

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  30:25

And and it's funny that that would even say that sucks. But yeah, it's really it is it does make it very hard for for our athletes to stay focused on training. And so what I would say is something like an alternating cycle where you would say, for for three weeks, I'm going to focus on integrated strength two days a week, then I'm gonna have a recovery week. And then I'm going to do three weeks of climbing focus with maybe a little bit of maintenance in there for the hangboard.

Steve Bechtel  30:56

Gotcha.

Steve Bechtel  30:57

Maintenance level weight training, but not these high intensity sessions for three more weeks, and then take a week off and then go back. And alternating between those things, is, I think that that sort of thing would be really good. These, the classical linear plans are okay, or like the block programs that that we've talked about. Those, those are fine, but then it starts to get into what, really what works well for each athlete. Because, as you know, when you you know, as soon as you build a great training template, and he sent it off to somebody, it needs to get customized. 

Kris Hampton  31:35

Oh, yeah.

Steve Bechtel  31:35

Everybody's special.

Kris Hampton  31:36

Yep. Yeah, in my app, I tried building templates that I could then customize from and I don't think I've used the templates after about the first two weeks. 

Steve Bechtel  31:45

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  31:45

You know, it's every plan just ends up being a custom completely custom built anyway.

Steve Bechtel  31:50

Yeah. And so that, that's where, you know, when when we do template driven stuff, we'll say, we want to develop these primary qualities this month, like, for like, for me, personally, August will be about just building base strength. And so I don't care about how hard I redpoint, I don't care how, how much endurance I've got, and all those things, I can kind of throw in a little bit of climbing and endurance. But I've done it long enough that I understand that endurance is coming back, and it's gonna be two and a half weeks, and then it's gonna be topped out. I, you know, you just know for yourself as an athlete, how long it takes to ramp those things back up. And so I think the thing is, we always go back to his strength is the hardest to develop. But it also sticks with you. And so you spend three weeks developing this finger strength, you can you can put it on the back burner for three weeks, and it's gonna be fine.

Kris Hampton  32:53

Now, with this integrated strength training, do you think the same sort of principle applies when you're training power? Can you take a big lift? And then couple it with campus training and get something out of that? Get more out of that?

Steve Bechtel  33:10

Yeah, I think so. And it's interesting, because people, people get on make my case when I say that campus training isn't power training, but it like systematically, it's not like I understand we're moving quick. And maybe you would call it speed training. Mark Anderson calls it accuracy training, you know, contact strength training, we can call it all those things. But like, if you've done cleans or snatches, I mean, you know, that it's not power, or, you know, a huge box jump. And but what, and I'm not saying it's a bad exercise, but I'm saying what you're suggesting will make it better. And so, because building that explosiveness, and the ability to generate force, you know, because power power can either be really fast with a light implement, or it can be somewhat fast with a heavy implement.

Kris Hampton  34:06

Right.

Steve Bechtel  34:07

 You know, like a kettlebell swing is very light. I mean, not always super light, but, but compared to what these guys are cleaning.

Kris Hampton  34:14

Right.

Steve Bechtel  34:15

 It's a very light implement. And it's done very quickly. Kettlebell snatches, I think, one of the best conditioning exercises, that's not specific to climbing that there is. The and so combining those with your campusing is is also a win win. Now, the thing when we switch to power is the recovery periods are probably a little bit longer. And the recovery periods between sessions are probably a little bit longer. So if you were going to do an integrated power day, we would go explosive, total body movement, then a campus set and that would maybe happen every 10 minutes or every 8 minutes, those two things. Put put some mobility in between. and then maybe that only happens every four or five days. And so the weekly schedule gets screwed up there. And so very often with our templates, we'll look at one day, one week, two days the following week. So in a four week cycle, they would get six sessions done. Again, these are tough because it doesn't matter how tired the athlete gets, it's the numbers they put up at the end. How, how much can they do if they're, you know, like, we like box jumps. I like some some medicine ball work explosive, explosive push ups. You know, the clapping push ups are great. And again, if we're integrating it with campusing, we don't do like an, you know, another poll. You know, you don't do like explosive pull up then campusing.

Steve Bechtel  35:58

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  35:59

Because the mo...

Kris Hampton  36:00

Would you count something like a snatch as a pulll? It's mean, it's more hinge but...

Steve Bechtel  36:05

Yeah, it is. But it's like you're pulling from from down to up.

Kris Hampton  36:12

Right.

Steve Bechtel  36:14

And instead of from up to down, so it would be a different movement pattern. 

Kris Hampton  36:18

Gotcha. 

Steve Bechtel  36:19

In general, I know it's we're starting to cross that line. But it would be a different movement pattern in general than the campusing. And the thing is, is it's so hard, but to take the long view on on the campus board in and say like, I'm campusing for three years from now, instead of campusing for my project next week. 

Kris Hampton  36:40

Okay, yeah, let's take a break. Go ahead. 

Steve Bechtel  36:43

What's up everybody, Kris here, pardon the interruption. I'll keep this short and sweet. Since this podcast started taking off and we've been growing it, you guys have been asking how you can help out. I've got three ways for you. Number one, you can become a patron. That just means you give a monthly donation to the podcast $1 and up and you get something in return. And you can check out what those rewards are at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast. Best of all, we'll keep it sponsored and commercial free for you. Number two, you can rate us and review us on iTunes. I know it's a pain in the ass to go to iTunes and do all that but it really helps us out. At least that's what I'm told by the podcast powers that be. And number three, perhaps the easiest way and the best way to help us out is to share us on your social medias. Anytime you see us post up a new podcast, please share it with your friends tag people who will really appreciate it or who need to hear the advice that we're giving All right, thank you guys and back to the show.

Kris Hampton  37:50

 So during the break I was looking at this work your glutes poster that Charlie's got on the wall did some kid make this for him? 

Steve Bechtel  37:55

Um yeah.

Kris Hampton  37:56

One of his kids?

Steve Bechtel  37:57

It's it's actually the daughter of one of his athletes and and her daughter came in she I guess the girls probably 12 or 15 and she was watching her mom workout. And so she made this whole poster for Charlie.

Kris Hampton  38:12

That's amazing it says

Steve Bechtel  38:14

Clinch now release 

Kris Hampton  38:15

Now you clinch and release you're now going to get a good butt and be stronger. Oh I love it.

Steve Bechtel  38:23

That is the that is the saying that Charlie will be known for forever.

Kris Hampton  38:27

Clinch and release.

Steve Bechtel  38:28

Clinch and release.

Kris Hampton  38:32

Awesome. Okay. You were just talking about campusing for three years from now instead of for next week. So put money in the bank as you'd like to...

Steve Bechtel  38:42

Yeah, I think that the at some point and I hate playing like the old guy card because I actually really feel great climbing these days but...

Kris Hampton  38:57

On this podcast you can play the old guy card all day.

Steve Bechtel  39:00

Well that's the thing is like you just start to learn like oh, my god that is really hard on you. 

Kris Hampton  39:05

Yeah.

Steve Bechtel  39:06

 And so not that it's not good training but doing too much of it too soon can be and so if we can slowly progress and slowly add to our ability to do it without getting too hungry. We're gonna see a lot longer career and a lot a lot higher peak be able to be attained rather than like, go great guns till you get hurt. Take three months off, go again till you get hurt. Take three months off.

Kris Hampton  39:39

Yeah. And that's a tough cycle.

Steve Bechtel  39:41

It is. And we've all been there. And like, that's the one thing if we, if we can have any positive effect on the youth coaches and the youth climbers of today is to just like, let you know, let's do it right. Don't even though it's fun, and it's cool. Let's um, let's just make sure you don't get to where we have a lifelong injury cycle.

Kris Hampton  40:02

Yeah, for sure. So quick question. If you're, say you're doing a cycle of integrated strength training, and then you, you know, you d load or you take a week off, and you are then starting to implement integrated power training, do you think that's a good idea to do the two back to back? Is it something that you think there needs to be more rest in between?

Steve Bechtel  40:28

I think it, it probably depends on the athlete, but I think it's fine, I think it's good. And three weeks of strength. Week off, three weeks power is probably a very good cycle. And the funny thing is your performance because like we're not going to stop climbing very rarely do we ask people to not climb while they're doing these training cycles. The funny thing, if we do an alternating cycle like that is your greatest strength performance, your greatest ability to display finger strength will come during the power phase. And then when we go back to integrated strength, again, that your greatest displays of, of bouldering power will come while you're on the hang board, not while you're doing this hard, hard training. And that's a...

Kris Hampton  41:18

Makes total sense.

Steve Bechtel  41:19

 Yeah, but we but it's counterintuitive for a lot of climbers, they think the more pumped and fatigued I am, the better my endurance is going to be at the crag. But really your best performance comes after the week off, which is the thing that nobody will do.

Kris Hampton  41:34

 Mm hmm. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to make people take a week off.

Steve Bechtel  41:37

And, and like, Steve Maisch is just the smartest guy out there. But he is like, never, you know, never forget to take the week four off. 

Kris Hampton  41:52

Mm hmm. 

Steve Bechtel  41:52

And and not even off just go climbing. 

Kris Hampton  41:55

Right.

Steve Bechtel  41:56

 Get out of the out of the training cycle. Yeah, I'll tell people that their volume should drop by 50%. And that, that they should, you know, focus on on just going out and having fun. But we get these people that get so obsessive about adding and adding and adding that they will never allow for that time off. And and these are the ones that are chronically injured, chronically underperforming, and then they don't know why. Because they're also running and they should be thin. Right? 

Kris Hampton  42:28

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  42:28

And and so the more-nus does not lead to betterness.

Kris Hampton  42:35

Yeah, and I think that's true, mostly across the board. So another question, if, if you don't consider campusing to be power training, is there a better climbing exercise to integrate with powerful lifts?

Steve Bechtel  42:51

I think I think power bouldering is is under undervalued. And what I would say with power bouldering is it's we're not really set up well for it in in most gyms, but what it would be, it'd be like, on a steep wall, big, integrated body movements, between big holds. And because campusing is, like I said, it's really great for rate of force production in the fingers. It's really great for your timing. But you know, like, if you're just hanging by your arms, you just can't generate that much power. 

Kris Hampton  43:29

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  43:29

And so if we can do like, even, like huge jug campusing is more powerful than what we could do on a typical campus board.

Kris Hampton  43:41

But what you would rather see are our big moves, incorporating, driving with your legs to begin with.

Steve Bechtel  43:48

Yeah, I think that's a big place where people are lacking in their skill. Um,

Kris Hampton  43:56

 I agree.

Steve Bechtel  43:57

They are like the be to make a big move. And then like, know that that fingers gonna dunk, and you're gonna catch that hold. I mean, a lot of people just don't have that kind of accuracy. They don't have that that level of commitment. But if you make, you know, 15 moves with each arm for three workouts a week, where you're going for it to hold. I'm not talking like full on body, dynos, but dead points. You can get to where you're willing to make those kind of big moves. And when you get to a hold that's two inches too far away. You're not going to be too worried about it. And I think that that's a I think that's a really critical thing. That yeah, it incorporates some total body power. It incorporates speed and accuracy. And I think it's too often that we say, this tool, the campus sport is the only way to build power, 

Kris Hampton  44:50

Right.

Steve Bechtel  44:51

 That hangboard is the only way to build finger strength and the treadwall is the only way to build endurance. I think that we limit ourselves a lot there.

Kris Hampton  44:59

So let's go back to power really quick. If you're so I often have tell me we think about this, I often have kind of my beginner climbers or a lot of the climbers who aren't powerful, like, like, when I started really training for sport climbing, I wasn't powerful at all, I was a lock off trad climber, you know. So I'll have people in that position practice jumps and practice dead points and practice big moves, just on big holds just easing in more for the timing, and, and learning to move their body through space like that, then when they move on to more powerful bouldering, I often ask them to work on things that require tension to hold the positions. So so big dead points where they have to keep their feet on, do you think there's any value in that over doing big moves, where your feet are cutting, for power development?

Steve Bechtel  46:01

Probably probably, it's probably a wash, probably both of those are developing that the ability to go, 

Kris Hampton  46:07

Okay.

Steve Bechtel  46:07

But, your economy improves, if you're keeping your feet on, like, you know, the thing that's just so crazy is if you do any sort of work with, with measuring force, like if you have your feet on, and you're, you know, hanging from, you know, hang board, and then your feet cut off, like you take you to have your feet on a stool, and then you take off, like the load increases, like crazy. 

Kris Hampton  46:35

Sure.

Steve Bechtel  46:35

And you have a finite amount of work that your body can do on x route, you want most of that route or that force to be on your feet. And so when your feet are cutting, like, especially, I mean, it's very rare. Like, what is it like maybe 5% of climbs made from not even that many that required that you actually cut your feet? It's.. 

Kris Hampton  46:59

Right, yeah, it doesn't happen often. Not purpose anyway.

Steve Bechtel  47:02

Yeah. And and it's, you know, and really, I think that explosiveness with the feet on is a good thing to learn, because then you learn to initiate tension, as soon as you grab the target hold, you know, like, you get there, and all of a sudden, you know, your entire posterior chain tightens up and you learn to hold that position, you know, get efficient, get into the next position, your feet swing off that cost you like, you know, two or three moves, right. 

Kris Hampton  47:28

Sure, sure. Any cautions with this integrated strength and integrated power training?

Steve Bechtel  47:34

Um, rest more than you think you should. And, and don't, I think the the thing is always like, it's, it's what you did, not how it felt. Like, if, you know, if you're, if you're measuring exercise by how sweaty you are, or how nauseous you are, or how fatigued you feel you're blowing it, because those are side effects of of work. And, like, I'll talk to people in terms that they understand, like, if you were studying and you got a headache, you wouldn't say, oh, wow, I must really be learning. You know, like. No, you have a headache for some other reason. You know, you could be sweating because the gym is hot, you know, and it could have nothing to do with the work you're doing. And so you've always got to look at your numbers. Did I campus better? Did I send a harder boulder problem? Did I lift more weight? Was I able to hang that edge that I'd never been able to hang before? Those are the those are the metrics you need to follow?

Kris Hampton  48:41

Yeah, and I think even if you don't, don't quite do those things, like maybe you weren't able to hang that edge yet. I think it still goes back to what you did. 

Steve Bechtel  48:53

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  48:53

Were you working toward that rather than did I get tired?

Steve Bechtel  48:58

Yeah. Um, and and we got we messed up. Like, there's so many things that I, I I have very few regrets on on like the way I've lived my life. But I have so many on how I trained for climbing. We used to burn out at the end of the day on on routes that were too hard to burn out on. Like you would just go till you couldn't even lift your arms up to the next hold and thinking oh man, my endurance is going to be so good. But what's really interesting when you're over your anaerobic threshold, and working at that level, the the primary primary response is to improve the oxygen uptake or the aerobic capacity of your system and so we're better able to to uptake oxygen after training that way, but what the limiting factor in climbing is almost always muscular endurance, sure and muscular endurance is better. Develop slightly below that anaerobic threshold. And so if you can work up to that threshold and then back down, work up to it and back down, like interval style stuff.

Kris Hampton  50:10

Right.

Steve Bechtel  50:11

 But don't go over that red line, you're going to be training the right stuff, you start redlining and going over doing like Tabata, you know, dead hands or something, we were developing this, this ability to deliver oxygen, rather than the muscles ability to pick it up, you know, we're, we're oxygenating the blood better, but we're not doing anything about what's actually limiting us climbing and, and so, I, I learned, you know, over the years from various climbers, you know, if you are going to burn out, you know, like, kick it way back, like to something that's not gonna degrade your skill, you're gonna be able to climb it, climb it smoothly, and well. And don't go until you're, you're pumped, so silly that he can't, can't climb anymore, because that just is prolonging your recovery. And, and, you know, maximizing recovery is the whole name of the game and climbing.

Kris Hampton  51:08

Yeah, and and I've said this before, and I'll make mention of it here again, but I think there is a time to train that way. But it's when you're, I mean, when I say that way, I mean, getting stupid, pumped and going to failure like that, I think the time to do that is when you're learning to climb, and, and you need to learn how to climb when you're pumped, and you need to find out where your limits are, because so many beginners just say, "Take." Because they think they're gonna fall on a move, when in reality, they've got 10 or 12 moves left. So I think to learn those things, you have to push that and for my money, it's better to do it in the gym, while you're training than to learn it on your projects over four weekends, you know, so, but then I think it should end I don't think you need to train that way. Again, after you've learned those skills.

Steve Bechtel  51:56

Yeah, well, it's, I think, once in a while, like, once a month, you know, go go nuts and should have a mega hard day. Because it is nice to know that you can still pull that out. Because you know, you're gonna do it on a hard redpoint or whatever. But, but the idea that like, that's what it takes, is, is sort of a little misdirected. But I agree with you in that, like, God, it's nice to know that you can be that wickedly pumped and and bring it back. And that's one of those things like those recovery intervals, where you, you know, climb till you're pretty pumped, then find the shakeout hold and, and shake out there. Those are very useful for 5.11 5.12 climbers to understand that to let the pump isn't the end of the day. 

Kris Hampton  52:45

Right. 

Steve Bechtel  52:46

And, and so yeah, I see where you're coming from now.

Kris Hampton  52:49

Yeah. All right, we're gonna have to stop talking, or we're just going to take up all of our future talks. So thanks, again, for sitting down. I'm gonna let you get back to work here. 

Kris Hampton  52:58

Yeah, sure thing. We'll, we'll talk soon.

Kris Hampton  52:59

We'll do it again soon. All right. Another great talk with honorary co host, Steve Bechtel is in the books. I've been using Steve's integrated strength training principles quite a bit with myself and with my clients. And and frankly, I've had good results, you know, does it does it work? Hard to tell yet, but, but what it definitely does do is free up time and make programming a little simpler. You know, for the busy person, so I really, really appreciate that about it. And yeah, you can find Steve at crime strong calm, as usual, definitely check out what he's doing over there. Find him on the Facebook's and the Instagrams. He's always posting really great information. So definitely look him up. Before I get out of here, I want to let you guys know that we've got some cool new things coming in 2017. We've we've been developing a couple of spin off ideas for the podcast. And frankly, I'm pretty stoked about those. You'll see I can't tell you much more, but you'll see very, very soon. Also, I've got a I've got a bonus for you guys. Christmas episode. It's not really about Christmas. But it's a Christmas episode because I'm gonna put it out for you around Christmas. And it's going to help us get to 24 episodes for the year. And if I didn't finish with an even number, my good friend Yasmin would probably freak out. So I'm going to finish with 24 we'll make it two a month for our first year. Maybe we can up that. If you guys become patrons and really want this thing to keep going. We may end up with three a month this coming year. We'll see. We got lots lots and lots of great, great conversations. pod-versations. Sorry, coming. And, man. You guys know what to do shares on your social medias. The Facebook Instagrams You can also find us on the Pinterest I don't know what happens over there Pinterest, but some of you do because we're popular over there, which is cool. Where you cannot find us, however, are the Twitter's we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.