Episode 4: Kettlebells for Climbers with Paul Corsaro

It's alive!  Both Episode 4 AND the new "Kettlebells for Climbers" training plan!  

In this episode I sit down for a podversation with strength coach and kettlebell instructor Paul Corsaro.  We talk about why we like kettlebells as a strength tool for climbers, some of the limitations of the kettlebell, and the training plan that we co-authored.  As a relative newbie to kettlebells, I feel pretty strongly that every climber should utilize them in their strength program, and we detail exactly why in this conversation.

You can find Paul and his musings, including his excellent column called "Bullet Points and a Brew," which you'll love if you're a craft beer enthusiast, HERE.  If you're in the Chattanooga area, you can work with Paul directly at his training facility, Crux Conditioning.

The training plan, KETTLEBELLS FOR CLIMBERS, is available now on the site as an ebook!  It's a 12 week strength training plan meant to co-exist with your climbing training.  Paul and I were both following it when we sent our hardest boulders this winter, and my core has never felt stronger.  They are an excellent, versatile tool, and they don't take up much space and cost pennies compared to what you'd need to spend otherwise.  Check out the plan, and give them a try!

Like what you hear?  Subscribe to The Power Company Podcast on ITunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio, and leave a rating and review!

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:32

What's up everybody. I'm your host, Kris Hampton. And welcome to Episode Four of the Power Company Climbing Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com, where the new website is up and running and functional. And I'm really glad not to have to be building that right now. And special thanks to my friend Yasmeen Fowler, who is a coding ninja, essentially, and to my friend Blake Cash for helping me get all of the blog posts reformatted, so they didn't look ridiculous, and so that the old links still worked, because that's a huge part of it. And thanks to you guys, because traffic's been non-stop, and the ebooks are still selling, and I'm psyched for all of it. We're growing here, Nate just put up his first post on the site. And I appreciate Nate's writing because he's, he doesn't ramble and rant like I do. He's very thoughtful and meticulous. And I just tend to type things out in an angry fit and hit "Post." And I don't really care who I offend. And Nate tries not to offend people, which is, that's a good thing. Glad to have that balance. So check Nate's post out, there's going to be a lot more, he's got some columns on the way, regular columns. And I just like his writing. So go check it out. We are also working on a new new platform at Power Company Climbing just to be able to handle more people because we've been swamped. And it doesn't take much to swamp us because we're, we're only two right now. But we're working on that. So if you want to get some training in and all the plans are sold out, keep checking back. Pretty soon, we're gonna have some new things up there for you. We've also got ebooks, of course. And that's actually what we're here to talk about today. My friend Paul Corsaro and I have been working on a Kettlebells for Climbers training plan that's built specifically to be able to work with your climbing training plan, whatever that may be, if it's one of ours, someone else's, if it's your own concoction. Totally fine. We've built it so that'll work within your training. And I've actually known Paul for seven or eight years, I guess maybe a little longer than that. Yeah, longer than that, maybe 10 years ago. Gosh, I don't know. I'm old now. And we met in the Red River Gorge where he was spending a couple of seasons. I believe he was in college at the time. And luckily he didn't go down the dirtbag path and drop out of school and just become a rock climbing bum. Instead, he continued and got his degree in movement and sports science from Purdue University. He's also now certified personal trainer, a Strong First Level One kettlebell instructor. And he is the strength coach at Scenic City Strength and Fitness in Chattanooga. So if you're in Chatty, and you're looking to get strong, Paul's the guy to talk to. He works with a bunch of climbers down there. And if you've ever met Tennessee climbers, you know that they're burly, and they're strong. And Paul has something to do with that. So check him out at Scenic City Strength and Fitness if you're in the area. Paul and I sat down in his kitchen over, actually it was in his dining room, I guess I don't make those distinctions because I live in a teeny tiny little house and they're all one room and the same for me. But Paul and I sat down in his house over coffee one morning and just chatted about our Kettlebells for Climbers plan. And I like that Paul's kind of no nonsense, but also doesn't get too technical. He talks to you like a person. He talks to you about strength culture and lifting as if you're a person and not as if you're a robot who understands every technical aspect of the body and physiology and kinesiology so you can understand him. And I like that because I'm not interested in being a scientist. I have zero interest in being a scientist. I just want to get strong and I want to go rock climbing. I want to understand why it's happening. And Paul's good at explaining all that. And we actually recorded this, maybe the day after maybe the day before, I don't quite recall, I did my second V10 and Paul did his first, Hustle and Flow, down at the Hospital Boulders in Alabama. Shout out to the SCC, because they provide a they they own the Hospital Boulders, which means we own the Hospital Boulders. And I think it's important to shout those guys out for doing what they do for climber access. But anyway, I'm not saying that it was the Kettlebells plan that caused us to climb that. But it might have been, take it for what you will. Anyway, let's get into this thing.

Paul Corsaro  05:43

It just helps kind of reinforce the idea that strength is a skill.

Paul Corsaro  06:14

So something I'm curious about, kettlebells are kind of somewhat new to the American fitness culture, you know, yeah. In the grand scheme of things anyway, what was your first experience with kettlebells? And why are you attracted to them?

Paul Corsaro  06:35

So it was about two or three years ago, I was working down here and just wanted something different. I was doing some barbell work and some dumbbell work and just on a whim, bought a book called Simple & Sinister by Pavel Tsatsouline. He's a guy who kind of brought kettlebells over here and kind of started

Paul Corsaro  06:54

He's kind of an EVIL RUSSIAN genius. Yeah, the real monotone comrade type of guy, but,

Kris Hampton  06:59

comrade.

Paul Corsaro  07:01

But uh, yeah, so I bought the book and read and like I had taught swings and get ups before when I was working up in Indianapolis, and a little bit down here. And I was really impressed with the simplicity and detail of that book, and just how effective that program was where basically, you just do swings and get ups, five, six days a week, and just not a whole lot of volume. But just, I liked the idea of practice and the no nonsense and I get thrown off thrown off by really complicated programs, I it's easy to get off track. And just I loved the simplicity of it and started playing around with kettlebells.

Kris Hampton  07:35

You and everybody else gets thrown by off complex programs.

Paul Corsaro  07:40

But uh, yeah, so I started playing around with that, I went to a kettlebell user course in Atlanta, I like the Strong First people, really like just some of the techniques, they use a lot of the tension techniques where irradiation, where you're squeezing and getting the shoulders work in and getting core tension going just by activating almost every muscle in your body as hard as you can. And that helps press stronger weights, and it seemed to make sense for climbing too - you can generate more tension, it's more likely you'll stay on the wall, and all that. So..

Kris Hampton  08:14

Yeah, so you already had your exercise science degree - is that what your degree is in?

Paul Corsaro  08:19

Yes, Movement and Sport Science.

Kris Hampton  08:22

You already had that degree before you'd ever...

Paul Corsaro  08:24

Yes, that's true. And there really wasn't a whole lot of talk about kettlebells and stuff through there. Yeah, I saw people kind of moving around a little tiny kettlebell, like the 10-15 pound ones. Right. Right. And it was cool to start playing with some of the bigger ones and realizing that they weren't just a cardio tool, they can be used for building strength in a really effective way.

Paul Corsaro  08:44

Yeah, and I think that's, I think that's one of the misnomers about kettlebells definitely, in my experience, when I first came across kettlebells it was more CrossFit style, you know, 8 million swings at a time kind of a workout but I'm definitely finding now that that I've been going through this Kettlebells for Climbers program that we're that we're working on, that I'm really liking them as a strength tool. Partly because it it just activates your core all the time. Yeah, you know, more so than a lot of the lifts I grew up with before kettlebells and crazy Russian evil geniuses were here. So, are kettlebells the main tool you use now?

Paul Corsaro  09:38

Yes, I do mostly kettlebell work. I do some barbell work when I need to load stuff a little bit heavier but the vast majority of the stuff I do are kettlebells.

Kris Hampton  09:48

Okay, what what are the specific exercises you would rather do with a barbell as opposed to kettlebell work? Like what what what are the things you do with a barbell now?

Paul Corsaro  10:01

Honestly, I do barbell deadlifts. And just because you can load it up a little heavier. Yeah, I use kettlebell deadlifts as a teaching tool to kind of build into that. But once someone's ready, we'll use a barbell deadlift, because you can load it more. And when you're going for lower reps, you can work higher higher weights. So yeah, and kettlebells - they can be big ones, but they can be expensive. And you can't really use them for a whole lot else. If you're buying a kettlebell for purely deadlifts, you could probably get a barbell and get more utility out of that.

Paul Corsaro  10:31

Yeah, no doubt. So one of the things I really love about kettlebell training, and I, you know, this was kind of brought up in my talk with with Steve Bechtel on resistance training for climbers, is that the kettlebells, don't come in, you know, two pound increments, right? You know, they, you buy a couple of bells and a couple of sizes, and you just, you have to master that lower weight before you move up to the heavier weight. And, and if you get ambitious and try the heavier weight too soon, it's just not gonna let you do it. Like, especially with like a get up or anything overhead. And I really love that about it, because you're really mastering the movement pattern, instead of just trying to add a half pound and go up.

Paul Corsaro  11:28

It just helps kind of reinforce the idea that strength is a skill, like you have to practice every aspect of that skill, and then doing it with the, maybe not your absolute pure maximum weight, but staying on, you know, your working bell for a good amount of time, you're going to be able to practice some of the finer points of that. And by dialing in your technique, you're going to just get more practice kind of getting that groove a little deeper, and just making it more subconscious in a way where you don't have to consciously think about: "Alright, now I need to squeeze, dig my heels into the ground, squeeze my glutes as hard as I can right, crush the handle with my hands."  It just starts becoming second nature. And then over time, that's going to help you work for a heavier bell, but there's no need to rush it for sure.

Paul Corsaro  12:09

Yeah, and I don't know why this is, but for me, kettlebells apply to climbing a little better for me, because I think of climbing movements, kind of in terms of a flipbook. Like if you, you know, you take even a single move on a boulder problem, and it can have four or five small parts to it, right, that are then broken down into even smaller parts, you know, so there might be 10 or 12, things to focus on in one single move. And if you take, if you take a flip book, and you take one page out of the flip book, whatever that action is that's happening doesn't work as well, right? It's the same way with kettlebell movement, you know, if you take out a small part of it, the rest of it starts to fall apart. And you can notice that pretty easily, which is something that I didn't ever experience, you know, lifting like I did in high school or in college, with with barbells, or what was popular than was Hammer Strength machines, you know, you don't you don't get that then. But with kettlebells, I do. If I'm, if I miss a part, I know I missed a part.

Paul Corsaro  13:21

And the, especially I think the perfect example of that is the getup, like if you rush through a transition stage, like you may not notice the difference right there. But maybe two steps later, bell's gonna get a little wobbly or you're just not, you're gonna have to bail and get that bell down safely however you can, because one of those small subtle details, if you skip over it, it adds up and you can't do it. Yeah, yeah. It's self-limiting.

Paul Corsaro  13:43

Yeah, I really love that about about kettlebell work, especially the get up and and I you know, you know, that I just had - and most of the people listening know - that I just had shoulder surgery in April, this past April, and I was, one of my goals after working out a lot of the summer at Steve Bechtel's gym in Lander, was to be able to do a halfway decent get up again, fairly soon. And, and now that I have started doing them, and I've gotten better and better and better at them, I'm not afraid of overhead work, like I might have been, had I followed the traditional, you know, lightweight on a machine, kind of kind of workouts that that a therapist would have me do. Not that I didn't do those things because I have done them, especially in the beginning stages. But I think it's really important to be able to do something like the Turkish get up and, and build confidence overhead. And I think a lot of climbers, even if they haven't had shoulder surgery, just aren't that strong overhead.

Paul Corsaro  14:52

Yeah, I've seen that a lot. I've been lucky enough to work with some pretty strong climbers pretty recently and I have noticed that their pressing strength overhead is honestly pretty awful. Yeah, not very good. And if you think about it, a lot of us live in that overhead position a lot when we're climbing and if we're weak up there, it could lead to some issues further on. And you see people in the gym doing their shoulder presses and all that. And especially like in climbing gyms now, the shoulder press is a pretty popular exercise. But it's still, with a little bit better technique, maybe you see people do, hammering out sets of 10 or so. And maybe with a little bit lower, lower reps, they can work a little bit heavier and work on some of those finer points of you know, getting the core tight, not flaring out in their ribs when they're pressing, and all that. And just a little bit more attention to that and get a little bit stronger shoulders and get that press strength up. But yeah, that's definitely something I've noticed in climbers, is their pressing is not nearly as strong as some of the other movement patterns.

Paul Corsaro  15:51

Yeah. How much do you think that the mobility plays into that? In my experience, climbers have pretty horrible mobility in their shoulders. Probably not as bad as baseball pitchers. But pitchers have just weird mobility, you know, they're hyper mobile in some places and have no mobility in others, but climbers definitely have bad mobility in their shoulders. How much do you think kettlebells can act as some sort of corrective measure? In that respect?

Paul Corsaro  16:23

Yeah, definitely. One of the guys I follow a lot, he's been a big influence on me, his name's Charlie Weingroff. He's a physical therapist and a strength coach. He's he's said, the best thoracic extension exercise you could do is a heavy press. And climbers, they have that hunched forward posture, usually, and thoracic extension is something they could definitely work for. And when done correctly, working on good technique pressing something overhead, if you don't have any other structural or soft tissue limitations, they can definitely start layering in some stability there and kind of putting some glue or cement into that movement pattern and helping kind of preserve or gain a little bit mobility.

Paul Corsaro  17:02

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I've been, I've definitely been toying with different different things with the kettlebell like arm bars. And... 

Paul Corsaro  17:11

Yep, that's a good one too.

Paul Corsaro  17:12

things like that. Just to work on, continue working on my shoulder mobility, and particularly the one that I you know, the one that I injured.

Paul Corsaro  17:20

I think it'd be hard to go wrong with arm bars. It'd be hard to go wrong with arm bars, presses, and get ups when done intelligently. Because armbars gets you that rotation or opening up the shoulder. And the more sideways motion pressing gets you going overhead and then get ups. We've talked a lot about the get ups and they're just kind of the best exercise ever. Yeah, they kind of hit every direction you need for shoulders, core, and hips.

Kris Hampton  17:46

Yeah, just just recently on my blog, because I put out the, and I know I've said his name a bunch of times here but, because I put out the episode with Steve Bechtel recently,

Paul Corsaro  17:57

I was lucky enough to meet him up at a kettlebell certification this past May and after, I mean, he's been on Training Beta and your thing and yeah, I wish I had a chance to talk to him more. He's, he's, uh, he knows what he's talking about.

Paul Corsaro  18:12

Yeah, for sure. Recently, on my blog, he answered a couple of questions for some of the readers and listeners. And he noted that he loves get ups. But he feels they're more of a core movement, as opposed to a strength movement until you can do pretty close to half bodyweight get ups, and I hadn't really thought of it in those, in terms of that, but I'm definitely in the camp where it's still a core movement for me, and probably will be for a long time. And I think most climbers are probably going to be in that camp as well. However, I definitely think the get up is one of the best core movements that climbers can do. What are your thoughts on core movement versus strength movement and, and just why climbers should be doing get ups in general?

Paul Corsaro  19:13

Yeah, we talked about the shoulder aspect, which is a good one and the core aspect too, just being able to keep everything stable and not moving in your core with something heavy overhead while we're moving around under it. So if you think about it, the working arm, well, they're both working arms, but the kettlebell arm is extended, having load, your other arm in a lot of the positions, is extended almost under you. So you're, you're reaching out your press and then being able to control that, limit any movement through your core, keeping your spine straight and then moving your legs under it. If you think about it from a climbing perspective, a lot of times you're trying to keep everything locked down tight in your midsection, pulling with your legs, moving with your legs, moving with your arms, without trying to move too much midsection so there's some carryover to that I think. I think one of the best parts about the get up corewise is that first stage: that roll to elbow. It teaches you to kind of keep everything straight and long and kind of pivot over that down arm. And especially when you get heavier you'll notice this, if you try and do a sit up, like it just doesn't work, it's a roll to your elbow. And that kind of goes in line with core training, it should be about resisting movement through your midsection, not creating movement, your core is your stabilizer, first and foremost. And yeah, so like crunches and all that... I think crunches are good for people who have very little fitness histories or backgrounds. Just kind of getting them into doing a little bit of work, 

Kris Hampton  20:41

Plank, right? Crunch kind of core work.

Paul Corsaro  20:44

Yeah, planks are, planks are way better than crunches, because you're not moving the core. You're doing that same thing, everything tight preventing movement. Yep. But yeah, so the get ups are great, because you've got a weight overhead, you're working out the down arm, you're moving under it and doing some pretty, they can be pretty technical movements, but your midsection is not moving. It's strong and stable. Kind of like climbing.

Paul Corsaro  21:06

Yeah, something that you just said reminded me of this. So the other coach with the Power Company, Nate Drolet, who also coaches with you at Scenic City Strength and Fitness, who's done some coaching work there with you. He he said something to me about Jimmy Webb's climbing that was really interesting. And I had never really noticed that, that Jimmy, before he makes moves, puts his body into a position and he uses his incredible core strength to get into these positions, that make the move much easier than it looks for a lot of people. And and I've noticed that now that I've watched Jimmy after talking with Nate about it, that he definitely moves his body into static positions from which he can create momentum if he needs it, or he can make the move. But his body goes into these positions first. And, and that's a lot like you're talking about with the get up that you have to move your body into a position, get tight, and then make the next movement. 

Paul Corsaro  22:18

Every move sets up the next move. So there's, you can't really, you can't really take one move out of the get up and work on that. It's all it's all connected.

Kris Hampton  22:28

Yeah, yeah, that's super important.

Paul Corsaro  22:30

Which, kind of like climbing, it's, you can work moves in isolation on a lot of things. But once you tie it together, they can be a completely different beast. If you've done all the moves on something and then doing it all from the ground and a link is going to be very different feeling. 

Kris Hampton  22:44

Yeah, no doubt. One of the other things I really like about the Get up is it, it's a great, it lets you know how tired you are. Even if you don't know it. Even if you don't feel the fatigue yet, you know if your nervous system's tired and you're ignoring that, and you go to do a get up at your normal weight, whatever that is. It's pretty obvious from that first roll up onto your elbow that you're tired.

Paul Corsaro  23:11

Yep, that leg'll kick up or you'll get a little bit of wobble on that shoulder.

Kris Hampton  23:15

Yeah, yeah, you look, you look like a bug on your back trying to stabilize swinging your limbs around. Yeah, I've done that way too much lately.

Paul Corsaro  23:23

It happens. For sure. Well, we've all been there, that's for sure.

Paul Corsaro  23:27

Yeah, so let's talk about the kettlebell swing, because that's kind of where most people come into contact with the kettlebell first is through swings. And for me, I really, I really kind of fell in love with the swing because of the the powerful nature of that hip extension. Yeah. And that feels a lot more like like the strength that you need, and the power that you need for rock climbing. And I don't think people get that. I think you need to build strength with heavy deadlifts. You know I love barbell deadlifts same as you and you definitely should be doing them as part of your your strength program but I really love the powerful extension you get through swings. And I don't I don't generally ask climbers to try and learn you know, barbell cleans and barbell snatches and the more powerful barbell work unless they're pretty pretty damned experienced. You know, but but the swing is accessible.

Paul Corsaro  24:34

It's it's very accessible. Like you mentioned the Olympic lifts. And a lot of times with the Olympic lifts you need a lot of wrist, and wrist and elbow mobility, or pretty strong wrists and elbows, and that's another kind of problem spot for a lot of climbers, especially as I know, my wrists are horrible. I can't really do front squats with the bar or cleans or just catching, it tears my wrist up, but the swing you just need good, relatively... You don't need extreme hip mobility demands, you just need to be able to move pretty well. And then it's more of a technique thing where you explode through and then hold that isometric plank at the top. Which is cool too, because a lot of climbing, you need to get a little momentum, pop through a foothold, or drive, catch the hold, and then hold that isometric attraction to latch the hold. So there's some similarity there. And like you said, the swing's very accessible, it can be learned pretty quickly. And you can just keep playing with that for forever. Like, yeah, there's always little things you can focus on. You can, you do it for strength with lower reps, you can do more conditioning or energy system training with some time, longer, longer practice sessions with the swing, so there's a lot of utility to it. And that's why I enjoy it. That's another thing I really enjoy about kettlebells, you don't need a lot, you can do a lot with it. And it just makes things simpler. 

Kris Hampton  25:50

And I like that you can progress the swing too, from, you know, in a bunch of different ways. You can go from two handed swings, to one arm swings. And then you can learn to switch hands at the top of the swing. And you're progressing it in a movement skill type way, you know, and then of course, you can go into snatches and things like that, which I really love the snatch as well. But, but I like that you can start off with that two handed swing. And it doesn't, I don't think that works as well with a barbell, especially if you're training by yourself, or if you don't have a background in, you know, weightlifting culture.

Paul Corsaro  26:36

Yeah, once you once you get down to just the barbell deadlift off the ground, the only way you can really progress that safely is add more weight in a smart manner. Start cutting rest periods, your form starts getting bad, you start setting yourself up for some trouble. But um, swings, yeah, you can do time progressions, you can do different swing movements, like I love the one arm swing, especially for rock climbers, because you get some core trying to fight that rotation...

Kris Hampton  27:00

Lots of stability happening there.

Paul Corsaro  27:02

...in the shoulder, you get some supplemental grip strength work. A lot of my general population clients, they really get a good forearm burn from a one arm swing, obviously, you need a lot more load for climbers who are a lot more versed in getting pumped. But um, I think that you get some good grip strength work. Even for climbers, it's good to have some sub-max, just practice holding a weight trying to fly away from you, and controlling it back down and popping it back up with good form.

Paul Corsaro  27:32

Yep. That controlling the weight that's flying away from you just reminded me of, I've been doing this, like I said before, this Kettlebell for Climbers that we've been working on, and I gave no credit at all, and this is, you know, my, my major mistake, but I gave no credit at all to loaded carries. And, and you've got me doing them. And I'm really loving these kind of unilateral suitcase and half rack carries with the kettlebell. And the and all the people who've been up in the Engine Room when I'm doing these, when my fiance and I are doing these kettlebell workouts, they've heard me say it 20 times, like, "Wow, this is way harder than I expected it to be," you know, they're very sneaky. And I just love that you can use these things in so many different ways.

Paul Corsaro  28:27

And it's cool too, because once you get all the those components, relatively controlled, so you got your swings, getups, presses, carries... now we can start playing with it and start kind of tying them together while you go, swings, then put it up into the half rack position and walk with it. Yeah, that just builds time under tension, you're getting some conditioning training, and carries are great for posture and building just total body strength. Yeah, and what I've found with the complex is to, once you get to that point, you can start tying stuff together. I've had a couple climbers work with me who've commented that being able to do stuff with good form while you're tired and keep the technique down is very similar, mentally, in a way, when you're climbing pumped. A lot of times when you get pumped your technique gets terrible...

Kris Hampton  29:12

The same things are firing in your brain.

Paul Corsaro  29:16

Understanding you're tired but staying present and focusing on doing the little moves, right? Doing the subtleties, right? Yep. And you'll be able to go a lot longer. But we've played with some complexes with some climbers and they've had some success on more of their, some of their more endurance-y routes or stuff that require them to be very precise when tired. Yeah. And they attribute that to a lot of the mental kind of, mental familiarity from playing around with those complexes and being being able to understand you're tired and okay, just breathe through it. Do the moves, rest when I need to rest.

Kris Hampton  29:48

So, yep. And the, let's talk just just on a kind of a side tangent here. Since we're talking about loaded carries and get ups and swings and all these things, different movements you can do with the kettlebell - climbers in particular. And I imagine general population as well, but but climbers in particular, because they're so much stronger at pulling, hingeing type movements, than they are at anything overhead or anything pressing, you know, and you can, you can see that if you've ever watched somebody try a southern top out, you know that they, they just can't press themselves up at all. You know, they might, they might be able to pull V12. And then they have to press themselves up off of one of these nasty slopey topouts and they just can't do it. But at any rate, let's talk about bell choice. For me, I'm finding that I need to skip a bell size and so kettlebells mostly come in, or at least traditionally, they came in kilos instead of pounds. 

Paul Corsaro  30:21

Yeah. And some of the, the better kettlebell brands still offer them in the kilos. But they also have the weights on them as well. Usually eight, eight-ish pound jumps, are the standard.

Paul Corsaro  31:10

Yep. And so for me, it's been better to find my, my overhead press weight. And you suggested a weight that I could do five to eight times. And then I need to skip a bell size up and go to the next one for my swings, or any of the pulling type work. 

Paul Corsaro  31:35

And I think that, like you mentioned, just goes towards climbers' tendencies to be a lot stronger pulling than pushing. And over time, it'd be nice to get those bells a little closer to, maybe not the same size, but so we don't have to skip, skip a bell in between. But yeah, definitely, to get better adaptations for this program, probably having a heavier bell and a lighter bell for the one bell program would be the way to go. Although if you only have access or means for one bell, definitely go with the press size though, so you're still able to do all the movements, you can still get benefits from wider swings. And like I mentioned before, the practice or skill element of it, and the kind of mental mental techniques of getting everything to activate right and just doing the skill right will get you benefits regardless.

Paul Corsaro  32:26

Yeah, and I noticed that Pavel, the evil Russian genius, you know, he's, he suggests a specific bell size for, for men and women that they should be using. And I definitely cannot use his bell suggestion for the overhead work. And I definitely see myself as... 

Paul Corsaro  32:45

24 kilos, I believe, right? 

Kris Hampton  32:46

Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And I can't use that bell for, for overhead stuff. And I think of myself as pretty fit. But we are weaklings, comrade, you know, when compared to to evil Russian geniuses.

Paul Corsaro  33:00

So that being said, too, I think that recommendation's more towards people who don't necessarily do what, do what climbers do, right, right. Climbers, on average, tend to be a little bit smaller than a lot of other strengths enthusiasts. And just because it's more to our benefit to be a little bit smaller. And yeah, I'm a little bit on the larger side for climbers. I'd feel like I'm around, say probably 175-180 right now.

Kris Hampton  33:30

And yeah, a lot of the stronger climbers are a lot. You're the guy that breaks the holds off of all of our projects.

Paul Corsaro  33:35

I try to, I try to, but I don't break 'em because I don't climb hard enough to climb the hard projects. I'd like to eventually...

Paul Corsaro  33:42

But yeah, you're right. We're kind of, not only are we lopsided, a little in the pushing, pulling, or a lot in the pushing, pulling, but we're also definitely smaller athletes, so.

Paul Corsaro  33:54

So I'd say a great bell for climbers to work up to, to have a good sized working bell, would be the 20 kilos, or the 44. I think if you're able to get some presses down with that, a good set of three or five, you're in a pretty good place. Yeah. Eventually. Take your time up to it. No one wants a blown out shoulder, it kind of hampers a climbing season when you're hurt.

Paul Corsaro  34:16

Yeah. And like you said before, which I think is super important to highlight, is that strength is a skill. So just getting antsy about "Oh, I need to have more weight, and I need to be using more weight," isn't necessarily the way to go. You should get better at using the weight you have.

Paul Corsaro  34:33

And you've got to think about too, what what are we doing this for? We're not pressing kettlebells or doing Turkish Get Ups so we can do a heavier get up. We're pressing kettlebells and doing get ups so we can be better rock climbers. So as long as you're doing the skill right, and getting good technique, technique changes out of it, and getting stronger for rock climbing. That's where you're at. If you're trying to press a heavier bell and you hurt yourself and you can't rock climb. You've kind of made some stupid choices.  

Kris Hampton  34:59

That's fail number one right there. Yeah.

Paul Corsaro  35:09

Like that goes, going back to the fatigue thing where fatigue degrades skill. When you're doing a lot of strength training program, it's a good idea to rest and give yourself maybe more rest than you think you need, because you want to practice good skill. And if you're tired, inevitably, your skill performance is going to suffer a little bit. So that's why especially when we're playing around with this Kettlebells for Climbers program, we're pretty lenient on the rest, we don't really give you - Oh, you only have a minute before this next set - Right? Right, take as much time as you need if your form starts to get a little sloppy, set the bill down, step back, breathe, try and recover a little bit. Which is a good skill to have, as a climber being able to know when you need to rest or when you can punch through something or just being able to rest and get that heart rate back down. And you know, exactly, get some juice back.

Kris Hampton  36:00

Yeah, I'm definitely drinking the Kool Aid, man. I'm definitely digging kettlebells. Like you, there's going to be barbell work that I'm doing regardless, but, but I'm loving these kettlebells. And just to kind of recap, and you jump in here, too. But the things that I definitely think are great about kettlebells for climbers, or just for even for general public, but but I really love that you don't have to have right tons of implements, like you, you can have two kettlebells. And you're good for a while. You're good for a long while. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one of the coolest things because you're not spending a ton of money. They don't take up a ton of space.

Paul Corsaro  36:47

 If you're on a road trip, say if if you want it to I don't know how your training would be on a road trip. But you could put that in your trunk. Take it with you.

Paul Corsaro  36:53

Yeah, in fact, probably the first time I ever saw a climber using kettlebells was Pat Goodman years ago, in the trunk of his car. He was in the Red and he had a kettlebell at the back of his car. And I was just like, "This dude is nuts!" You know? That is awesome. So he and Jessa were both really into 'em back then. So anyway, I love that and and it's just cool to move around a big ball of iron. 

Paul Corsaro  37:24

Everyone likes to swing something heavy around.

Paul Corsaro  37:26

Yeah, you do you feel super cool when you're doing that and everybody else are doing their TRX workouts. Yeah. Nothing wrong with TRX, don't don't get me wrong. I definitely have people work out on TRX and I use it myself for a lot of things. No, no shade thrown at the TRX people.

Paul Corsaro  37:44

There's a lot of right ways to get strong for sure. Yeah, no, no one way and everything else is wrong, for sure. But there's ways certain people enjoy more than others, like we were talking about. We both like kettlebells a lot. So...

Kris Hampton  37:57

Yeah, so I like it for those reasons. I like it that it's uh, it lets you know that it's a movement, a movement skill,

Paul Corsaro  38:07

Right.

Kris Hampton  38:07

Where for me a lot of other weightlifting doesn't do that.

Paul Corsaro  38:11

It's a, ties everything together, you need all of your body to do these movements, even a swing where you say it's more of a hamstring or glute exercise, I mean, your shoulders need to be tight, your core needs to turn on at the right time. You've got to be able to drive to the ground using your feet, you got to stay tall through your upper body and your head and neck. So it goes to show how movement's not just a muscle here and muscle their stuff in isolation, like everything works together and it really emphasizes that and something gets a little out of whack you can feel it and you know.

Paul Corsaro  38:42

Yep. And I don't know why this just popped into my head but do you think you can get ever get too strong for kettlebells? Because I definitely see people, climbers who've looked at them and thought you know that they're not going to be able to use them for that long because they're too badass and too strong. 

Paul Corsaro  39:04

Yeah, they're wrong. Yeah, you can always get stronger you can always find something to work on. One of the guys I, another influence of mine, he's a Strong First, one of the main Strong First guys, a guy named Brett Jones. He said once "I've done a perfect swing once, I'm still trying to find it again." So like, there's always little little bits and pieces you could practice or if you're too strong for that kettlebell, try and get a heavier kettlebell. But be careful about it. 

Kris Hampton  39:33

Yeah, yeah. And that's good to know that, you know, he's done a perfect swing one time because I definitely have not done a perfect swing and I feel I have I when I'm in there, swinging. I feel like I'm still working on tiny little subtleties, which is exactly what I'm doing when I'm when I'm climbing. You know, when I'm working on a ridiculously hard move. That's that's ridiculously hard for me. Then I'm finding, like I said before about the flipbook, I'm finding all these little things I need to work on. And it's the same with swings. It's definitely the same with Turkish Get Ups. I'm about a million miles away from being able to do a great Turkish Get Up, even with a lightweight. So I really appreciate that about working with kettlebells.

Paul Corsaro  40:19

There's a lot a lot of similarities. And you can do that. Honestly, you can practice that little aspects of the skill of strength with any exercise modality really but yeah. 

Kris Hampton  40:30

No, no doubt, you can definitely practice it with anything. But for me, kettlebells seem to highlight it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they show me that that's what's wrong.

Paul Corsaro  40:40

For sure. And yeah, especially when you're out bouldering the other day, and little subtle, subtle things make a huge difference between making a move feel impossible or, or being like, Oh, this is actually doable, and it makes sense. So it's good to have that mental mental skill to work on the little subtle stuff that maybe you can't see, or you can only just barely feel, but those make the biggest difference a lot of times.

Paul Corsaro  41:06

Yeah, well, I like I said, I'm drinking the Kool Aid. And I definitely appreciate you working with me on this Kettlebells for Climbers plan. And I'm excited to get it out there. Any any closing thoughts for you just on kettlebells in general, or, or using kettlebells? for climbing training?

Paul Corsaro  41:29

I think, if you're curious, the two movements, you probably need to know more than anything else are the swing and the Get Up. We've talked about those pretty extensively today. If you don't know how to do one, I'd say the biggest thing about swing, it does not go overhead, you swing out and your hips get tall through it.

Kris Hampton  41:48

And it's more hinge than a squat. 

Paul Corsaro  41:50

It is not a squat at all. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  41:51

You don't want to be squatting down to the floor when you do it.

Paul Corsaro  41:55

Yeah, we could, we could talk for two hours about some of the finer technique, technique details of the swings and Get Ups but if you are unsure about how to do it, find a Strong First or RKC instructor in your area, they seem to do the best job teaching the swing and playing with some of the other aspects of strength. But uh, you can't really go wrong with those two movements for climbing training. They're, they're great for you. So play with 'em.

Kris Hampton  42:19

Cool. Yeah. Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it. 

Paul Corsaro  42:21

Thank you. 

Kris Hampton  42:24

Play with them. Those are words of wisdom from Paul Corsaro. You should have fun strength training, and it should be a good time and you should learn about it. So get to it. The program's up. It's out there. I put it up at 12:01am early early this morning and a couple of you have already bought it. So you're watching. I appreciate that powercompanyclimbing.com. That's where you can find it. Click on the Train With Us tab go to the Ebooks. You'll find Kettlebells for Climbers there. It's a 12 week plan meant to work with your climbing training. So get right on it. Also, if you happen to be in the Knoxville area, or Tennessee in general and want to come down to Knoxville, Nate and I will be running a couple of workshops at Onsight Climbing Gym on April 22 and April 23. And we're going to be bringing those workshops, we're going to travel with them. I'm not sure exactly where yet but we're looking forward to getting those out and about and hope to see you guys out at your gyms. You can find us on Pinterest, you can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Facebook. No Twitter's, we don't tweet. We scream like eagles. See you next time.