In today’s episode, Kris sits down with shaper and setter Roy Quanstrom, of Tension Climbing. They talk about Roy’s newest holds from Trango, the Khans and the Fuegos, and the climbing experiences that inspired their design.

Roy talks about some of his earliest experiences outdoors and how they led him to climbing. He and Kris talk all about setting – from comps to home walls, dualtex to 3D scanned holds, and more.

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:

• The inspiration behind Roy’s latest hold lines: the Khans and the Fuegos.

• Can setters really recreate specific outdoor climbs indoors?

• How comp climbing has helped expand what we consider the “usable” surface of holds.

• Debunking the common claim that modern indoor setting is full of moves that “would never happen outdoors.”

GIVEAWAY CLOSED – THANKS FOR YOUR ENTRIES!

You could win:

• a set of Roy’s Mini Fuego holds, from Trango

• a set of Inductor 60’s holds (feet), from Power Company Climbing

• enrollment in Boulder Builder course, from Power Company Climbing Academy

Winners will be announced/notified after November 17th.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

The Power Company Podcast is supported by our Patrons. They keep this thing sponsor-free. And in return, they get two bonus episodes every month. For as little as $3, you can, too. patreon.com/powercompanypodcast or click the link right there in your pocket supercomputer. Thanks.

Roy Quanstrom  00:26

With the Khans, it was a boulder problem that made me do something, that I was like, I don't think I've ever had a hold make me do that. And then with the Fuegos, it was something that I didn't, like a tool that I didn't have.

Kris Hampton  00:55

What's up, everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton. Welcome to the Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Winter is nearly here. And for most boulderers, that means it's the season. But for many sport climbers, it's now time to start thinking about your training. That is, of course, assuming that our global warming trend doesn't continue to make December and January essentially the summer months here in North America. But if you are starting to think about your winter training cycle, check out our Proven Plans, programs that are built from the patterns we've seen be effective for each level of climber, from beginner to expert. I fully believe that you won't find a better, more complete system that can guide you through not only the physical training, but the tactics and mindset required, as well. And if the global warming trend does continue, then by all means, check out our Fingers+ program, which will keep your strength and power high while you're still out there sending. Okay. Today's guest is Roy Quanstrom. Roy works with our friends over at Tension Climbing and is a shaper, setter, and – as we work out in this episode – a translator of movement. We go into some pretty nerdy rabbit holes here about climbing grips, indoors versus outdoors, and how exactly movement gets translated, and whether or not holds need to mimic outdoor grips to be effective for that translation, and so much more. If you have a home wall, or have a friend with a home wall that you climb on, we've got a bonus for you. Trango is giving away a set of Roy's new grips, the Fuego Minis, which I believe are essential for the spray wall user and I'll explain why later in this episode. We here at Power Company Climbing are adding to the pot with two more prizes for two more winners, a set of our Inductor 60 footholds and a free entry into our Boulder Builder course at the Power Company Climbing Academy. To enter, you must keep your ears open during this episode because you have to answer two trivia questions. Those questions are: What boulder problem inspired Roy's line of holds known as the Khans? And number two: Roy says that there are two rules to comp climbing – what are they? Once you know those answers, click the link in your show notes to enter the prize drawing. Alright, let's get into it.

Roy Quanstrom  03:37

The first time that I ever climbed would have been sixth grade? So... 

Kris Hampton  03:43

Okay, so you've been climbing quite a while, then.

Roy Quanstrom  03:45

Yeah. Yeah. Well, my dad, my dad was like, out every weekend doing fourteeners. 

Kris Hampton  03:53

Oh, cool.

Roy Quanstrom  03:54

And did a ton of them. And that was kind of how I was introduced to, I would... largely like alpinism. And he would like, he would like let me come sometimes, but then he would just get such intense summit fever that he would just leave me somewhere. And one time, I found myself as a pretty young kid at the junction of, you know where on Long's Peak where you would go.... you go, you take a right to go to the boulder field to do like the "Keyhole", that's where you hike the mountain. But if you go left, you go down the chasm, and then there's like the freaking "Diamond", you know? And there were like climbers hiking by, and you could see people on the wall, and that was just, at that, I say that, that's my conversion into this pursuit of climbing. Where it like, like something changed inside of me, where, you know, I didn't, I didn't know that I was going to become a climber, but I knew with everything that I had that I wanted to.

Kris Hampton  05:15

That's cool that you didn't, like your first experience wasn't in a gym. I wondered about that, because I have some theories about your answers to the questions I have here. But the reason I wanted to know when you started is because, you know, you started back early enough that you've gotten to see this shift into like big mega gyms and, and huge macro holds becoming a thing. And, and I think in the like gym landscape now, there's room for a different, a bunch of different varieties of shapers. You know, there's the holds that just look cool on the wall, but aren't super functional. They're the giant macro holds that, you know, maybe a lot of climbers would say don't resemble climbing, that I might argue against. And then there's the super-functional-for-the-rock-climber type of holds. And I think there's room for all of those in these, especially in these, big mega gyms. But I'm curious what, how would you classify yourself as a shaper?

Roy Quanstrom  06:31

I think in a lot of ways, it's hard to classify myself as a shaper. I'm still struggling with that. Because sometimes it's hard to even classify myself as a route setter. But I, I always knew I wanted to make, like shape climbing holds. Like interacting with the foam, and like, just being in that space, like, just was super intriguing, but I never, and still don't to a large degree, consider myself an artistic person. 

Kris Hampton  07:08

That's interesting. 

Roy Quanstrom  07:09

I don't really feel like an artist. Like if anything, I, I've experienced some really, really cool situations while climbing. Like, what a climb will force you to submit to. And I think that I can see how a hold would, how certain holds, or certain creations of things on a wall, can force you into that situation. And so for me, it's like, I, I'm trying to get something out of the foam that's going to create a certain type of movement. And...

Kris Hampton  07:50

So you're a translator? 

Roy Quanstrom  07:51

Yeah, that's a great way of saying it. Yeah, I feel like I'm translating. Even in a route-setting perspective, I feel like I'm translating. But especially like, if you bring it down to me making a hold... Like, there's all these modes of hold- shaping that, and I enjoy all the parts, like this is actually one of the modes, what we're doing right now. 

Kris Hampton  08:10

Sure. 

Roy Quanstrom  08:12

But the, the earliest mode is this, it's like this, it's infant state, where it's like, oh, I would really like to make someone do this thing, and what's the hold that's involved with making someone do this thing. And you just get to, like, have no remorse with the material. And just like, just like, get into it, you know? And, and eventually, it starts to become a thing. And then you start, you scale it, and then it starts to become a hold line, and then it gets really stressful. And then there's like deadlines and stuff like that. 

Kris Hampton  08:53

And the business end comes in. Yeah, yeah, I know that feeling well. Do you think you're more often translating from like, shape first, then movement? Or movement first, then shape? And does that change when it's hold-shaping versus route-setting? Or does it vary all the time for you?

Roy Quanstrom  09:25

Well, the first line that I ever did was with Kilter. And they're called the "Best Friend Jibs". And those were definitely like, "I want to shape this, this hold." Like, I want to... there wasn't really a movement surrounding it, like, an inspiration in that sense. Like I just wanted to make something that you could block really easily and it wasn't like just two flat holds that you can put together. It was like this little more interactive experience, but then with the other two like full lines that I've produced, the Khans and then the Fuegos, both of those have very specific... Like, I had an experience on a climb, or even with the Fuegos, it's almost like the experience that I didn't have that shaped the line. So like with with the Khans, it was a boulder problem in Switzerland that made me do something that I was like, I don't think I've ever had a hold make me do that. And then with the Fuegos, it's, it was something that I didn't, like a tool that I didn't have, that I felt...

Kris Hampton  10:39

Can we can we dig further into that first with the Khans? Like, tell me about that boulder and what it made you do? And I'm interested in this because the Khans look, you know, they've got very clean lines, they look sort of futuristic. So I would never have guessed those were born from an experience outdoors.

Roy Quanstrom  11:09

Yeah. Yeah, that's, I'm almost glad that you thought that because I, the way that I translate the moves, even though it like definitely came from a rock climb, the way that I'm translating it is in the indoor setting. So I'm not, I'm not necessarily like trying to make a granite hold.  I'm just trying to make a hold that's gonna do the same thing that that super interesting, like, gift in the woods. And it's "Jungle Book". So my first trip to Switzerland, I think it was 2017 or 18, but I still feel like in that, on that trip, I was sort of coming to age. Like I was, like I don't know, not, not the climber that I am today. But so when I like met "Jungle Book", it was the perfect thing for me to try and do on an extended climbing trip. And I don't know if you've ever seen it.

Kris Hampton  12:23

I don't know if I have.

Roy Quanstrom  12:25

It is like the, it's the craziest looking boulder. You, you kind of come, you can look down on it. And it to me, it looks like a, like a tornado. Like it's got like this like big lip that, if it were in Colorado, there's no way you'd be able to like grab this lip. But because it's like 120 grit texture, you can just like slap it and stick. But there's this big sort of scoop that comes out of this like 45 degree angle and you end up doing this like really interesting compressing, compression sequence. You end up on the far right side of that scoop, then you do this like full-body, almost Iron Cross move to this, to "the" hold. And it's, it's sort of tucked around the, the opposite side of the scoop so that you can't really mack on it, it's facing you. So you have to have really good core tension, you have to like kind of stick to it, but you end up tagging the far right side of it. And it makes the whole boulder work because the far right side of this hold is, is the good part. So you end up tagging that with your left hand and then you like do this foot-grapple sequence with your right and you end up crossing underneath through to like a bad part. And then left hand on top of that, and then you back the right hand back down, and then you back the left hand until... Like you just end up like doing this: 

Kris Hampton  13:57

Yeah, moving your hands around a bunch. 

Roy Quanstrom  13:58

You're moving your hands like a million times around on it until you're like set up and then you like, okay, now you gun for the lip. And like that's when a bunch of people fall, their foot slips or something. But I was just thinking like, like, sure you could set this. You could set like that, and I have before, like this, these multiple hands situations, but the fact that you can come in from such like an extreme angle of that hold and tag one side of it, and then cross underneath. So that's why on the Fuegos, you see that it's like it sort of ripples into the middle. I really wanted people to have to grab them from that really extreme angle, like from the side. Like we think about holds as grabbing them just like over the bolthole, pulling on them, out, but you know, I am always trying to get more out of it. Like I always, I want to create movement that maybe people expect, but in a way that they would have never expected. So, you know, people have shuffled their hands around on a hold. Sure. But have they done it like this? And I had never done it like that. And so, you know, maybe I accomplished that with the Fuegos or with the Khans.

Kris Hampton  15:25

I'm curious, when you were there climbing on "Jungle Book", did you... like when you – either you found this hand shuffle sequence that worked for you or, you know, someone showed it to you, or you saw it on a video, or whatever – did you at that time think, what is it about this hold that makes this happen? That sort of forces us to interact with it in this way?

Roy Quanstrom  15:52

Yeah, I was like obsessed. I have like 100 photos of this hold. I wasn't even expecting to like shape it. I didn't think that I had the ability to, at the time. It was just more of an appreciation. Like, oh, man, this is.. like what a, just what an incredible experience to be able to have. Not only being in Switzerland and like that whole thing, but just like to be able to be climbing on this boulder and to like, be...

Kris Hampton  16:28

At that time in your journey.

Roy Quanstrom  16:29

Yeah, at that time, like yeah, to hit it here. Because Shawn Rabatou did it like a few weeks later, and just like flashed it. You know, probably didn't appreciate it the way I did. Because I like went to war, you know? And like did it on like one of the last days of the trip. But just like, it was, it's more of an appreciation, I guess. And then when things started happening with eGrips, and I, I was just like gonna make some basic rails and I just kept like... you know, one thing Will always says is, "Just make it as extreme as possible." Just, if you can make it more extreme, especially in that creative phase, like, just try and continue to make it more and more and more extreme. And it was through that process where I was just like, oh, maybe I can do the "Jungle Book" thing. So...

Kris Hampton  17:19

That's really cool. I, I think, you know, there are certainly shapers out there who are, you know, I'm just gonna make a thing that is a cool shape, looks cool to people. But, um, and I'm glad for those folks, but, but I'm also glad there are people out there who are finding unique interesting movements and then asking the questions, interrogating these holds, these grips and saying, "What is it about you that forces me to, to interact with you in this way?" You know, and, and I love that those opportunities are then handed to us without instructions in climbing gyms. You know, that's maybe the best part of climbing gyms is that we get to go in without instructions and explore these, these things that were in someone else's head. We're creating a very specific thing that now we get to interact with any way we want to. Out of curiosity, have you taken the Khans and then tried to force this sort of sequence? And, and was it successful?

Roy Quanstrom  18:37

It was the first thing I did. And you know, maybe? I, I mean, I think the easiest answer is no, because what, how could I, like just fully recreate "Jungle Book"? But I have, I have had some experiences where that's definitely shown. And it was actually other route setters that were using the shapes and like having their own discovery with how to manipulate the holds, that I was like, Oh, you, you kind of did the "Jungle Book" thing. You know, like, this is sick. And so... the "Jungle Book" is shaped better still.

Kris Hampton  19:32

Yeah. Well, I mean, certainly you had the like, that moment and that history with, with that grip, so your, your creation is never going to live up to it at this point, you know?

Roy Quanstrom  19:48

Right. Right. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  19:50

Talk to me about the Fuegos then. What was it that you didn't have, that influenced the making of the those grips?

Roy Quanstrom  20:00

Yeah, it's like the... there's, there was a, I think there's two main experiences that kind of put me over the edge with the Fuegos. The... and I think that there's an inspiration and then there's sort of like the thing that I didn't have, like you said. If you're setting a championship event that's not in a gym – it's like in a venue where USA climbing comes and builds the wall – all the holds get shipped in these like big containers. And you, there's like some rough organization, but for the most part like, it's just like 1000 holds like dumped in front of the wall. And, and this is like a really interesting sort of, like, feeding process to watch route setters go through. Especially as the pile like begins to dwindle, you know.

Kris Hampton  21:01

Does it get cutthroat in there? 

Roy Quanstrom  21:02

Yeah, it's like a, it's like a, like a psychological sort of experiment where at first all the fashionable holds are getting picked, like, "I'm going to take this, I'm going to take this," and you set finals first and it's all sort of by design. But on this particular year, I was setting for a lot of the younger categories, this is at youth nationals. And so like setting for the C's and the B's and, and there, there was like this thing that I kept wanting to do, which was make them, on a slab, make them jump up on a volume. You know, like when you're, you're dynoing, but not really to hold? You're more dynoing to like, get your feet up? On a volume? And then you tag a thing, you grab a thing. And this thing could be anything, just so long as it's really bad. And we ended up going with the "bear claw" for this. But what I really wanted was a lighter, like I wanted to bolt a literal lighter to the wall and just make them like, just like snag this like super-crosley pinch. Because the one thing that we can't, or... as a route setter, especially with a younger category, and even if when you get into like the older categories of the youth circuit, and even in some senses on the pro level, the pinch is really problematic. From a fairness perspective. Because hold shapers in a lot of ways, are a lot like route setters, where we want the person who's climbing on it to use it the way we want them to use it. And so what happens with the pinch is it just becomes this sort of fat loaf thing. And when you add that hold type – when the majority of that hold type is like that – and you're trying to ask a young category in a climbing competition, when you're trying to ask the question, "Can you pinch?" Like are you set up to do this? It's like a lost question. Like, I don't feel like I can ask that question, I don't feel like I can ask that of the competitor, and not just let some person with big hands in, in past like a certain level. This actually happened with Drew Ruana at like a Pro-Am comp that I set. We set this really, really cool boulder on this overhanging prow. And it was all these flat holds, like fiberglass fat pinches thing, things and, and like it really wasn't that hard of a boulder. I think Colin Duffy did it on his second try. But Drew just like couldn't even, he literally couldn't even. 

Kris Hampton  24:16

His hands just didn't fit.

Roy Quanstrom  24:18

His hands just didn't fit, you know, and I can like mack on these holds. And it was really frustrating.

Kris Hampton  24:26

And Drew Ruana is not weak.

Roy Quanstrom  24:28

No. No, the fact that I, the fact that I can do this boulder, theoretically. I didn't like send the boulder, but that's not really the point in route setting, but for me to have a better chance than Drew. On a climb. Is, like, I haven't done my job as a route setter, because he is in every way better than me as a rock climber. And it was just like super frustrating. So, so between the, the experiences that I've had setting for the youth category and just feeling like, like there's this missing piece, and then you jump all the way to like, you know, arguably one of the best climbers in the world, like getting shut down on a boulder problem. I just felt super motivated to like make, to enter into the the pinch hold type from a different perspective. And for me it it required, I guess something that's happened with my route setting recently as well, which is allowing the holds to get used in a way that I didn't shape them to be used. So like, if you look at most of the Fuegos, they're just like, you can just set them as, as like directional holds, like you don't have to pinch them. And I'm trusting the route setter who's using them, that if the route setter wants to make you pinch this hold, I'm trusting that the route setter is going to be able to set it up so that you're pinching this hold. But if not, that's fine, too. I think that's one of the reasons why they might work on the spray wall, as well.

Kris Hampton  26:18

Yeah, I, I really do want to get into like your intentions with them and how, how I'm using them, especially on a really dense spray wall. But before we do that, I really appreciate the like skinny pinch availability because they just, at least in my experience, and I don't do a ton of searching for holds, but I know that big fat pinches are way easier to find than skinny pinches. I have a few skinny pinches on the wall that I've always just really valued because I hadn't seen any others. So it's exciting to get these little skinny pinches on the wall. You said something earlier, you said "crosley little pinch". There's this trend in hold shaping which, which I'm not mad at. I like the ergonomic, like these should feel good in your hand, you know, there should be any-- shouldn't be any like risk of injury grabbing these, or whatever. You know, I appreciate that style. Your holds, when I grab them, while they feel good in my hand, they, they aren't the like, big friendly.... like a fat pinch very often is. You know, now I'm assuming that was intentional.

Roy Quanstrom  27:54

Yes. Yeah. I like it because it's not good. 

Kris Hampton  27:58

Yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't call them "tweaky", per se. They're not unfriendly. But they do sort of force you to have to use your hands, instead of just, you know, being able to hold the thing. 

Roy Quanstrom  28:19

Yeah. Well, that's a good compliment. That was very intentional. And it's something that's very intentional in my route setting as well. That there's a distinct difference between what a route setter is trying to accomplish in the commercial environment, and what a route setter is trying to accomplish in the competition environment. And, honestly, it's one of the reasons why I'm not interested in commercial route setting as much anymore, because the competition environment.... Well, I guess I'll say, in the commercial environment, the thing that I would motivate my route setters to think about is: Who's going to want to climb this? More than once? And then you move into the competition mentality, and you're asking: How can we get them to not want to climb this? Like, that's the test. Like the test is, is doing the thing that, that you, in a way, don't want to do.

Kris Hampton  29:25

 That you were hoping you didn't see today.

Roy Quanstrom  29:26

Yes. Yeah. And, and that affects every form of route setting in that competition environment. If there's a place where you think you, like you're in a position, and you look down and you're like, a push foot would be nice here. That's how you know a push foot should not go there.

Kris Hampton  29:45

You should not put a push foot.

Roy Quanstrom  29:46

It should be wrong. Like these boulders and these routes, they should feel wrong. And that, to me, that's like a beautiful thing. Because in my pursuit of climbing, the harder and harder the climbs get, the more wrong they are. Like, this hold just doesn't work here. Like if, if there were, how many times have I said if there was just a foot here? You know, but there's not. And I think that this is like a beautiful piece of, of pursuing climbing in the way that I enjoy pursuing climbing and, and I think that the best route setters are the ones that can make the most wrong work.

Kris Hampton  30:31

That's cool. When I was putting some of these on my wall, I had some of those same, like, pangs. That's, that's not exactly the right word but it's pretty close, where, and I think a lot of spray wall owners, home wall owners do this: they, they put the hold where they want it. They orient the foot the way they want the foot oriented. And especially as you get more and more dense on a spray wall, you don't always have that option. And these were, these holds were forcing me to put them on in ways that I was like, Oh, I'm not gonna like that at all, but that's amazing. Yeah, I had that reaction multiple times, especially with the the slightly bigger ones. They were really forcing me into that.

Roy Quanstrom  31:28

Yeah. Yeah, I could see that, especially with how dense your spray wall is. When you're sessioning on your spray wall, is it hard to get outside of yourself? 

Kris Hampton  31:41

For sure. And I think, I think it has to be a practiced and learned thing. You know, I think it helps to have a partner who climbs things differently than you do. Because I can always ask myself, you know, how would Nate climb this? How would Zach climb this? Where would Zach want a foot? Let me put the foot where Zach might want it, you know? And, and then I know I'm going to struggle. Otherwise, I tend to fall into that same trap as everyone else. Like, oh, this, this move would be hard with a foot here, so I'm gonna put a foot there. And then all of a sudden, I can do the move three tries later. Yeah, that's what I fall into just like everybody else, I think. 

Roy Quanstrom  32:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  32:30

When you were shaping these holds, one of the first things when you were sending me photos that jumped out to me was the use of the dualtex. And I'm curious to hear your philosophy on dualtex? I think, you know, I remember when dualtex first came out, and when, like, some of the early holds, like SoiLL had that light bulb that, you know, was just a nightmare to hold on to. 

Roy Quanstrom  33:05

Yeah, there was some Nicros stuff. 

Kris Hampton  33:06

Yeah, there were some Nicros holds. Yeah. But I think dualtex has become more of an aesthetic thing for a lot of companies as opposed to a functional thing. And again, I'm not mad that it is, it is what it is. It just doesn't cause me to interact with the hold in a different way when it's purely for aesthetic reasons. And I really love it when dualtex forces me to interact with a hold differently. So I'm curious, with your philosophy with dualtex, particularly with these holds?

Roy Quanstrom  33:41

Yeah, definitely on the bigger ones I wanted to eliminate the wrap on top of the hold. That's just like a really easy thing, right off the bat. Like you can't just like false grip it on top and dangle, like you have to, the dualtex in these holds forces you to actively grab the hold even if it's on like a vert wall. But I have a long history with dualtex. It's actually how I got interested, not interested, but how I got invited to start shaping. That's how it all started. I was, I was setting at Ascent Studio and we were doing like all sorts of just like either member stuff, like member like bouldering league sort of stuff, or like we were doing a lot of the collegiate circuit around then and we were starting to get, get into like the Pro-Am style bouldering and sport comps. And I just started like instead of tweaking a boulder, I just started dualtexing holds on the, on the boulder. So like you know the, the classic example is you're climbing out of steep section on a sport climb, and you'd hit a head wall, and then even if a hold is upside down, you can just like smear on it. So there was a very specific example where I was trying to accomplish like this like foot stab thing. But you could just match your feet on this Kilter hold. And so I dualtex-ed it and just eliminated it as an option.

Kris Hampton  35:28

Now when you say you dualtex-ed it, are you like sanding it and then putting like urethane on it or something? What are you doing?

Roy Quanstrom  35:38

Well, the the way that I was doing it, there's a lot of ways to dualtex a hold, or no-tex a section of a hold. But if if, if you're a route setter listening to this, and you can identify a hold where there's a live edge, so there's a section of the hold that's raised – like the Drop Art stuff, eGrips Drop Art stuff, the whole Kilter Sandstone line – basically, there's a section that's raised. If you just hit that with 60 grit, and then 80 grit, and then 100 grit... keep sanding finer, all the way down to 4000 grit, you're gonna be able to see yourself in that hold. Because the plastic isn't textured, like the foam is the texture, and then you mold it. And if you've ever broken a climbing hold in half, it's like a beautiful, shiny material and you can uncover that. And I love that. I mean, I love what comes out of it. I also love like putting my respirator on, putting my headphones on, like, grabbing the palm sander and just like being there for a little bit and like discovering. Like, I almost feel like an archaeologist and it's like, this is gonna be shiny. And Ian Powell used to always tell me to like just make it into a car hood. And so that was my whole Swishahouse – Swishahouse taught me how to, taught me how to dualtex.

Kris Hampton  37:13

I love it. 

Roy Quanstrom  37:14

Dripping paint. Yeah, you know.

Kris Hampton  37:15

Like candy painting all your holds. 

Roy Quanstrom  37:17

Yeah, exactly.

Kris Hampton  37:18

I love it. 

Roy Quanstrom  37:19

Yeah, dripping stains when I switch lanes.

Kris Hampton  37:23

Well, something that I thought was interesting with these, these Fuegos is, you know, there's the obvious: the dualtex is there and keeps me from standing on them when they're, you know, oriented as like a vertical-ish pinch. Most vertical-ish pinches become really good feet. And especially at steeper angles, you're not, you're not even going to try to push off of some of these little Fuegos. But one thing I found that I didn't expect is that some of the ones that are a little slopier, and not the tight little pinches, when I would use them, you know, air quotes "wrong", like come at them from the wrong angle? The dualtex would be right where I wanted my thumb almost every time when I tried to come from a wrong angle on one of these holds. And so it would force me to load it a little differently, to create tension differently than if I could just put my thumb against texture. And I really appreciated that. 

Roy Quanstrom  38:40

Good. 

Kris Hampton  38:40

That it's like minimal dualtex, still looks cool, but then it is also forcing me to interact with it differently.

Roy Quanstrom  38:49

Yeah, I mean, there's, I think that there's all sorts of functional uses to dualtex that, like you just pointed to a great one. There's, there's just another thing about dualtex, like when I was talking about the, the pile? Like this pile represents a lot for me, because when you watch the route setters go into the pile, like, we're like fish, like they're like lures. You know, you, you see the dualtex, and you're like, "Oh, what's this?" you know. So there's like some salesmanship to it for sure. And that's, that's probably why you see it more and more too, just here and there. Like there's, there's something in all of our brains that likes things that are shiny, for sure. And I think it's really interesting too when, when you are simply putting dualtex or a section of no-tex on a hold, more or less for the hell of it. The long-standing under... for the longest time the understanding was you don't grab dualtex. Like it's just off, you know?

Kris Hampton  40:04

Which is funny to me because some of the first dualtex holds I saw... 

Roy Quanstrom  40:07

The light bulb. 

Kris Hampton  40:08

Yeah, yeah. 

Roy Quanstrom  40:09

And in the PCA there were like dyno-ing to it right on the slab. But it was really, it's been very interesting... I think this is a coaching thing, but I remember back when you saw dualtex as a competitor, or just I guess as a climber, but if you saw dualtex on the wall, you knew you weren't grabbing the no-tex side. Now, you're seeing climbers take a particular interest in the opportunity to grab the no-tex side of something. So you know, I think we're learning to exploit this more and more as a form of usable surface. More so than ever, and you know, that, the idea that you have to grab something that has texture on it is, is no more. Like, yeah, they're savages.

Kris Hampton  41:11

It's really interesting, the, the like way we engage with it based on just our, like, the paradigm that we have from whatever. And I think we can learn a lot from, especially the younger competitors, who are just grabbing dualtex, standing on dualtex, like it doesn't matter at all.

Roy Quanstrom  41:36

No remorse. 

Kris Hampton  41:36

And, you know, I've had people tell me, like, just straight up, tell me those footholds are pointless, you can't stand on those. I'm like, "What do you mean, you can't stand on them?" They're like, "Well, you just can't. That's, there's no texture." I'm like, "Wow, okay." 

Roy Quanstrom  41:54

Perfect.

Kris Hampton  41:54

I've seen real rock that slipperier than this. You know, that's, that's why I made these things so that people like you could learn to stand on things like this. So I think we have a lot to learn from not only those competitors, but just you know, the idea of no-texture usable surfaces.

Roy Quanstrom  42:17

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we're, I think as route setting continues to challenge the expectation of climbers, the more you're going to see these sorts of developments with the way that we use, the way that we understand usable surface. And the funny thing is, it's like my favorite thing is when someone says, "Oh, that would never happen outside." You know? 

Kris Hampton  42:45

Yeah, totally. 

Roy Quanstrom  42:46

It's the best. I was actually at the Rock Shop on the UFO boulder, and there were some people talking about some of the route setting at Momentum. They were talking about, like, a paddle dyno. And they're standing in front of "Bust A Lung", saying that would never happen outside. Meanwhile, there's like a legit paddle dyno. Like, right there. 

Kris Hampton  43:11

Yeah, it's so funny to me. I've been working on a coaching course about movement. And I just finished a module literally yesterday, talking about comp style boulders and why they're valuable for even just the rock climber. Like doesn't matter if you want to be a good comp climber or not. We're not even talking about that. The rock climber has so much to learn from that style of movement. And we're seeing young comp climbers go outside and find opportunities to be more efficient on old classic boulders because they have this set of skills that they've developed on comp style boulders in the gym. Yeah, you know, yeah, we're seeing those things pop up over and over and over. And I, and I love it. And I think dualtex represents one of those things, or no-tex represents one of those things, where we can we can introduce, you know, working on someone's anxiety around standing on or grabbing a hold. We're no longer just able to work on the physical parts of movement, but also the mental side of it, that then shows up in the physical side downstream, you know.

Roy Quanstrom  44:35

I think that's a great point. Speaking to the mentality side, too, I think this is one thing that, that a comp climber, especially someone who's grown up in that environment, I think it would be useful for anyone who is trying to better themselves in the sport of climbing to consider the, the type of mentality that's required to try and flash something that is: A) terrifying and B) totally wrong. Yeah, like what, what sort of mental state do you need to be in to be able to execute under those conditions? And you will find yourself climbing very, very hard.

Kris Hampton  45:21

Yeah. The the adaptability, the embrace of the unknown. Just, just the effort level required. Yeah, you know.

Roy Quanstrom  45:31

I mean, we always say – this is a little gnarly, but – we always say there's two rules to comp climbing: Accept death. And, and always be ready to rip it. Yeah. So like, it happens every single time that the passivity is what will make or break. Not, not, we didn't even have to be talking about comp climbing. But when you're talking about executing on, on a rock climb? That, being able to eliminate that passivity, and just make this attempt everything that you have – this is something that I feel like we're all striving for. And I feel like I've found that inspiration a lot setting a lot of these comps and, and like watching a competitor just grab the wrong side of the hold, like in a way that I was like, "Oh, but isn't, isn't the no-tex side off?"

Kris Hampton  46:36

Right. "You're not supposed to be able to do that!" 

Roy Quanstrom  46:38

Yeah, I thought this was wrong. People thought that about volumes, too, early on. Where the volume was just supposed to be a thing to put a hold on, you know? And now it's like, you're just standing in bolt holes. 

Kris Hampton  46:54

Yeah, well, I mean, I remember at a World Cup, it was not a year I was emceeing, I was just there interviewing folks. I was doing a project with Angie Payne about pressure in competition. And I was standing right in front, and Shauna Coxsey is not doing a boulder. And then she just turns around to the judge, and she's like, "Is this in?" And he's like, "Yeah, I guess so." And I'm like, "What is she asking that for? Like that, that doesn't matter, that's not even. She's not gonna use it." And then she uses it for the, uses this corner for the entire boulder and just does the boulder like it's V2. And I was like, "What?" I never saw it. Even when she pointed it out to me and was like, "Look, here's this feature." I don't even see it. I think we just have so much to learn. And it's cool to know that people who are out there shaping holds are also thinking about these ideas of anxiety and effort and just the willingness to give it everything and building that into the hold design the best they can. Trying to help us translate. I think that's so important.

Roy Quanstrom  48:23

Yeah. And I love it, that it's one of the places where climbing and outdoor climbing are married. This idea of wrongness, I find a lot of solace in that when I'm shaping. Like, regardless of the thing that I'm thinking about when I'm working with the foam, I think the end result is going to be applicable in either pursuit. Like this, it's not just going to be the exact thing that you thought you were going to, and, and I just, I just love it that we can find areas where these two aspects of the pursuit of climbing are married and very, very much the same.

Kris Hampton  49:12

Totally. It bothers me a lot whenever I see some of the old bitter climbers really just bashing either holds or movement styles or setting styles in gyms, because there's there's so much crossover, and they aren't able to see it because the hold doesn't look like a hold outside, you know? Yeah. I just don't quite understand that. Do you think there's value, just out of curiosity, in recreating the holds that we see outside, like these, you know, 3D scan and then recreating those holds? 

Roy Quanstrom  50:07

I think it's, I think it's really cool. 

Kris Hampton  50:10

Same.

Roy Quanstrom  50:11

I think it's very cool. Like they 3D scanned "Circadian Rhythm" early on, the Mimic guys did. And first of all, I was like, "Why did you scan this hold?" Like this is, like. But yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's very, very cool. Is it necessary? I don't think so. Mostly because, this is one of my convictions, I guess, about movement where, that the movement isn't always about the hold. The movement, to me, is about that the implication of the hold. The, the situation, like we talk about situations a lot. And, and so to recreate an outdoor move, first of all, I think if you scanned the holds on "Esperanza", and then put those holds in the same style roof in a gym, it's likely still probably not going to be the same. Just from a material perspective, like the materials are just so different. Do I think that would be really cool? I think that would be very cool. To just be like, crimping these ear things like in a gym, like, that'd be really cool. But now, when you think about "Esperanza" as the, the situations that you, you're put in like grabbing these really bad crimps, like building your feet super high and kind of like pouncing out of that position into like a hold that's facing the wrong direction and like fighting your momentum. Well, now, now we're not talking about holds, we're talking about something that's a little bit more zoomed out from there.

Kris Hampton  52:02

Right.

Roy Quanstrom  52:03

And this is why I think I'm critical of maybe people that talk down on the indoor climbing experience or the progression of it. Because the more modern the holds have become, the more I think, like, I think we're able to create these more intense situations. Like, if you think about the boulder "Jungle Book", like that feature could only exist in a gym with like massive volumes and like crazy jibs and things like this. And for the most part, that's kind of what's happening, in super modern style rock climbing, or sorry, indoor, super modern indoor climbing. It's funny because, like, you know, those big 360 domes? The absolute sort of antithesis of what a rock looks like? We would set full routes of just giant fiberglass 360 domes, and the people that loved them were like the, the hardcore trad climbers.

Kris Hampton  53:17

The traddies. Yeah. Nate and I walked into a gym on the East Coast and they had a whole line of those on a top rope wall. Like a 70 foot line of just these enormous 360 domes, you know, and I was like, "Oh, that's the first thing I'm climbing." 

Roy Quanstrom  53:36

Yeah. Like straight outta Yosemite.

Kris Hampton  53:39

This looks like so much fun. 

Roy Quanstrom  53:40

Yeah. And it is. Like, on the commercial side, we would always talk about achieving class four on the wall. Just through like, massive macro stuff where like, it's even easier than 5.0 but it is so fun and so engaging. And pretty real, too. 

Kris Hampton  54:01

Totally I think, you know, I've heard so many people on the internet, or seen so many people on the internet, just saying wild things about what rock climbing is and isn't. You know, like I've heard people say, "Rock climbs don't have kickers." I can point to dozens of them off the top of my head that absolutely do, you know. I've heard people say, "Rock climbs don't, you know, they don't break on even planes." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" You know, you obviously have not actually been rock climbing or something, you know? 

Roy Quanstrom  54:37

Yeah. And I feel like, maybe you're just, maybe the thinking there is a little too specific. 

Kris Hampton  54:43

Yeah, you know, I talk a lot in my coaching course about principle versus prescription. And I'm far more interested in coaching from a principle perspective than a prescription perspective. 

Roy Quanstrom  54:57

I like that.

Kris Hampton  54:57

And particularly movement. I'm, in general, I'm not super interested in the tiny little details of this move you found you are bad at and you want to recreate it here. I'm more interested in what are the bigger, more global ideas that were difficult for you, you know. Was it position you're not finding? Was it tension you're not creating? Was it intention you weren't creating? You know. What about that made that hard for you? And then let's work on that, instead of, "You need to have this finger oriented this way, and this finger on this crystal to make this move hard." I agree with you. I don't think it's about the hold as much as we want to believe it is.

Roy Quanstrom  55:40

Do you find yourself fielding a lot of those questions?

Kris Hampton  55:44

So many. So many people want to get really granular and really specific. And in doing so, I mean, it's, you know, the old saying, "You're missing the forest for the trees," you know. They want to get zoomed in on the details and they're missing that they just aren't able to give effort. Or they're not paying attention to positions at all. Or, you know, something bigger is, is completely missing from this equation.

Roy Quanstrom  56:14

Yeah. Interesting. I've, I've never taken one of your courses, I've always wanted to, but I have wondered what it would be like, you know. What would I be...

Kris Hampton  56:23

I'll set you up with this one when it's, when it's out. Let's talk details about these Fuegos. When I first saw them, I was excited because A) I love pinches, and B) I don't have enough skinny pinches, you know? And I'm like, these are going to be really valuable. And as a home wall owner, I end up with spaces on my wall where a lot of holds just won't fit. These little pinches are an interesting shape. And I'm curious what your intention was here. Did you have spray walls in mind at all when you were creating these things? Or was it purely from the, "I need this lighter I'm bolting to the wall,"?

Roy Quanstrom  57:16

Definitely spray walls were in mind, because vacancy on the Beast at Tension is, is a premium. And I really wanted something that people would be excited about, not only in these other environments that we've talked about, but in that training environment, like in, on that spray wall environment. Like I only climb these days on a spray wall, or like setting for climbing competition. And being able to have that creative outlet on the spray wall, with the screw-on ones specifically, was really important. And I, for, for eGrips, which is now Trango I guess, for the, for the brand formerly known as eGrips, I like present, I'll like present an idea as a line. And we were down in Hueco for our shapers' summit. And I like presented this as an idea. And I had made one of like the early "lighter" holds, like the screw-on ones, and Ty like goes into the back of his like 1000's of holds that he's shaped, and he comes back... because I had explained it to him. I was like, I want to make this hold and like do this thing with it. He comes back and it's like a two-screw, it looks like a little like piece of rabbit poop. It's a hold. And it's, it's the hold. Like it's exactly what I was trying to make. And he had shaped it in like 1992 or something. 

Kris Hampton  59:02

Wow. 

Roy Quanstrom  59:02

And, and obviously like that hold is for a spray wall because that's how you set back then. Like you didn't have commercial climbing walls and spray walls, you just had a more communal version of a spray wall. And I found that to be super inspiring. To sort of modernize this really sort of original thing that, that Ty had done. And so yeah, that, I guess that's a really long answer to say yes. The spray walls were were very upfront with those, the two smaller sets.

Kris Hampton  59:42

Cool. Yeah, when I started putting them on, like... Well, first off, you see the holds. I get excited about big holds. I'm like, "Oh, I want those big holds. Fuck, I don't have room for those big holds," you know? But I do have room for small holds and my initial thought was, "Okay, I'll fit, you know, five or six of these on my wall somewhere." And what I discovered when I started putting them up was that they're of a particular shape that, because of the shapes of holds we've had forever, there are these very particular open spaces left on my wall, and they're the shape of these little fucking pinches. So not only do I have space for like 100 of these things on my wall...

Roy Quanstrom  1:00:33

Oh, that's awesome. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:34

But they work really well because when you grab these little skinny pinches, you're pulling out a lot of the time. So they can go in between holds that are maybe slightly larger profile, and I'm not worried about like bashing my knuckles if I slip off, because I'm not going to just slip off along the plane of the wall. If I come off of these pinches, it's going to be coming out from the wall. So they don't give me that same fear as if I put a little micro-crimp in there that I might just destroy my knuckles if I blow off of.

Roy Quanstrom  1:01:14

Do you find that they're a little lower percentage in those places? 

Kris Hampton  1:01:19

They are. You have to be a little more precise sometimes. But I was also surprised that in the spaces on my wall, because of the shape of the holds all around them, I can, I can butt them right up against other holds. And I don't feel like I have to be super precise. It definitely increases the precision, but not to a point where I'm like, "I'm not even gonna try to go to that hold unless I'm going off of something good," you know?

Roy Quanstrom  1:01:46

That's great. I can't say that that was something I was thinking about. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:50

I didn't even expect it until I started screwing them to the wall. And the first time it happened, I was like, "Oh, that's cool." You know? And then second time, I'm like, "That's coincidence," and then the third time, I'm like, "Fuck, I need more of these little pinches."

Roy Quanstrom  1:02:04

I can see that because you know, the majority of holds, the taper and a lot of times even the usable surface, they're circular. So if you have a bunch of circles around each other, I could totally see how that little bone shape.

Kris Hampton  1:02:19

Totally, you end up with all these little bone shapes. And it fits really well in there. And doesn't make me feel like I'm going to destroy my knuckles which I, which I really appreciate. Because I've struggled to find holds I can put in a lot of those spaces that are small enough but also give me some confidence to really go for and to really pull on.

Roy Quanstrom  1:02:45

Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, I appreciate you letting me know.

Kris Hampton  1:02:49

Yeah, I love them. I texted you. And I'll say it here, I think they're, they're a must-have if you, if you are a dense spray wall owner or you appreciate dense walls, I think I haven't seen another hold that will usefully fill the gaps. Like I could fill the gaps, but I'll never use the holds in the gaps because I'm afraid of them in those situations a lot of times. These, not so much. These I want to grab. They look cool. They've got dualtex in the right places. And they, they just feel different than anything else on the wall so they're attractive in that way. Not just another micro-crimp.

Roy Quanstrom  1:03:32

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're one of the like, when I think of like spray wall culture. You're definitely one of the people I think about. I also think about like, the the Minnesota community. 

Kris Hampton  1:03:44

Yeah, totally. The A. The folks at the A would love this thing. 

Roy Quanstrom  1:03:48

Yeah. So I don't know, hopefully. Hopefully, they get to use them, too. I'm, I'm honored that you even put them on your wall.

Kris Hampton  1:03:58

Well, I'm I'm gonna buy more because I need more of these little ones. They're on Trango's site, is that right? That's where you get them? 

Roy Quanstrom  1:04:09

Trango holds. 

Kris Hampton  1:04:10

Okay, I'll make sure I've got links to them here. And if you've not seen them, I'll have some photos of them up on our social media. I'll have some videos up of, you know, how I've put them up in the Machine Shop and how I'm using them in there. And there's links to them in the show notes there for sure.

Roy Quanstrom  1:04:31

Very cool.

Kris Hampton  1:04:32

Where can people find you?

Roy Quanstrom  1:04:36

I guess you could find me on Instagram. But I'm, it doesn't really fit my personality very well. Especially now that I'm a new dad. To like, just be seeing all my friends sending everything, so... 

Kris Hampton  1:04:51

Congrats, by the way. 

Roy Quanstrom  1:04:52

Thank you. Yeah, it's incredible. But I haven't been on social media in a few months, but I guess you could find me there.

Kris Hampton  1:04:58

Yeah. And you work with the folks over at Tension, as well. So people can find you on the YouTube.

Roy Quanstrom  1:05:04

They can definitely find me on the YouTube. Tension's YouTube. Yeah. And roy@tensionclimbing. I'd love to outfit your spray wall with Tension holds.

Kris Hampton  1:05:14

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Awesome. Well, man, I love talking the like, the details of, of these things that I'm interacting with constantly. You know, I love to know what was in people's heads when they were creating these things that have shaped so much of what I end up doing. So I appreciate the thought you're putting into it and, and your sitting down and telling me some of it.

Roy Quanstrom  1:05:43

Yeah, thanks. I've appreciated the conversation.

Kris Hampton  1:05:48

See, this is exactly the type of conversation that makes me so appreciate having the ability to record these in-person. Roy is thoughtful and intentional and deliberate. And I think that shines through so much better when we can sit down across from each other and spend an hour exploring these nerdy rabbit holes. Roy, thanks for the great conversation. Let's do it again soon. You all can find links to Roy and to his hold lines right there in the show notes in your pocket supercomputers. And did you catch the answer to those trivia questions? If so, click that link in the show notes, get entered for the three prize drawings: a set of Fuego Minis from Roy and Trango, a set of our Inductor 60's and entry into our Boulder Builder course. As always, the Power Company Podcast is brought to you by Power Company Climbing. You can learn, grow, and excel with us at powercompanyclimbing.com, where you'll find links to the Power Company Climbing Academy and the Knowledge + Community Hub. If you want to support the podcast, do that at patreon.com/powercompanypodcast or by sharing what we do on your social media. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, @powercompanyclimbing , but never ever on Twitter. Because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.