If you already spend 4 or 5 days a week climbing for your job as a setter, is it a good idea – or even just a feasible one – to take on a training program? How do you find the additional time, energy, and motivation? Plus, aren’t you just asking for an injury? In today’s Board Meeting episode, our very own coach Jess West answers these questions and more, providing valuable insight as to how setters can smartly and safely train for their goals.

Photos: Climb SoiLL

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:36

What's up everybody? I'm your host, Kris Hampton.

Jess West  00:40

And I am Jess West.

Kris Hampton  00:42

And I'm gonna throw you a softball here with the duo because nobody ever gets them. And I want the like, I want the feeling of satisfaction of someone else getting the duo that I name. 

Jess West  00:56

I'm nervous. 

Kris Hampton  00:57

No, you're totally gonna get this one. And together we form Jacky Godoffe and Tonde Katiyo.

Jess West  01:05

Boom. Magic. 

Kris Hampton  01:07

Can't not get that one. 

Jess West  01:09

Especially with what we're talking about today. Very appropriate.

Kris Hampton  01:12

Exactly. So what we're going to talk about today is something that you're well-versed in because you are a former route setter, you're married to a route setter, a lot of your friends are route setters. Your clients are often route setters. So what we're gonna be talking about are kind of the ways and the things that route setters can consider to make sure that they're staying healthy and able to continue training. Am I saying that right? Does that sound right to you?

Jess West  01:45

I think so. Basically, it's things that often come up with my clients. And the solutions are not as buried as they seem. So I'm hoping that whatever I share can be immediately implemented in your own training, or maybe it changes your mindset a little bit, if training has become sort of a barrier to you as a setter.

Kris Hampton  02:13

And that's a, that's a question we get, often, you know, I hear from lots of route setters that are like, I just can't work and train and seem to have enough, or I keep getting injured, or I can't make progress, or something is always coming up. And it must be fucking hard. I mean, it's hard for me to have the energy to be in the gym for, you know, four hours a week. And if you're in there all the time, and forerunning and, you know, setting, and carrying holds around, and hauling holds up, and jugging lines, and all of that. It's got to get really difficult.

Jess West  02:55

Yeah, I mean, the short time that I, that I did it part-time, that sounds funny, but for the, for the time that I was considering pursuing route setting, I went home every day and I napped. I was just drained emotionally, physically, and I could not have gone back in later that day or stayed later. I didn't have the tactics at the time, I didn't know the amount of work that was ahead of me that day. And I didn't know how to balance the two. So to me, it was either: I'm going to be a climber that trains and progresses, or I'm going to be a setter and I'll be good at this like niche set of skills, but I may or may not progress. And it seemed like it was a battle between the two. And I chose climber. Because I was just, it's, it's hard work. It's not for everybody.

Kris Hampton  03:49

Do you know, I'm curious, before we jump into these things, do you know route setters who essentially choose route setting and stop climbing for themselves?

Jess West  04:01

Most of them. Yeah, it seems like, I think I've heard time and time again, if you want to get worse at rock climbing, become a route setter. Or if you want to stop rock climbing, become a route setter. Because it becomes not just about you and your climbing and your progression, the work that you're doing every day is for somebody else's progression. So not only is it physically demanding, but you feel like "Well, this isn't for me anymore," and I don't, I don't get the chance or I don't feel like I can pursue it to that degree. It's sad, it feels like it has to be that trade off but that's, that's what I keep hearing and it's not sustainable to do that. If you, even if you want to progress as a route setter, like if you want to move up within the system and you know set at larger events and that type of thing, you still do have to progress. You're, you know, you're not, you're very unlikely to already be at your maximum level when you become a route setter.

Kris Hampton  05:03

It's also, it's also this vicious cycle of like, I became a route setter because I loved climbing. Now I'm going to stop climbing to continue being a route setter, stop my own personal climbing to be a route setter. Now I'm going to like start despising climbing or being disgruntled against climbing, because, resentful because I don't get to climb for myself anymore, which is going to cause me to not like my job anymore. Which is this whole, you know, it's an easy slide to go down, I think.

Jess West  05:45

Yeah, I think you have to have a certain level of respect for the craft to decide "I'm going to pursue this, this is going to be my career and I want to progress in that way," versus "I love the mystery behind a climb. I love not knowing the beta, I love solving the problem. I love..." you know, those are the things that climbers typically attach themselves to and keeps them coming back. But for the setter, it has to be the love for the craft and the creation of those things.

Kris Hampton  06:16

And I will talk about this a little bit later on, too, but there's a reason why the setters are kind of like, behind the scenes and they don't want to present themselves. And part of it is what you just talked about, is like, "Well, I don't necessarily want to hear the negative. And I don't want to be bombarded with questions when I'm in the gym, because maybe that's my time to train, or my time to climb." And I think even if you're not a route setter, hearing some of these challenges and the things that a route setter has to go through in order to be both a climber and a setter is, is still I think, important for the typical climber or member to hear in hopes that you'll appreciate setters a little bit more, and maybe you'll cut them some slack if they didn't set a five star route for you that day. 

Kris Hampton  06:16

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we're having this conversation. Because, you know, I've said this a lot on the podcast, and I'll say it a lot in the future. But I think route setters are, are far more important than the average climber gives them credit for, you know. They're, they're creating this apparatus that we're using to learn and hone our skills on. And, and the, the biggest amount of feedback they get is "This route sucks!" you know, things like that. It's, it's hard to seek out a route setter and tell them they did a great job for some reason. So they get negative comment cards all the time, and they hear about how their routes are dumb, and no one would ever do this outside, and all of this other bullshit that... we love to, you know, blame our shortcomings on the route setters. That's essentially what most climbers do. So, route setters, I appreciate you.

Kris Hampton  06:17

Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Alright, let's jump into your first talking point then. And just so everyone knows, you are running the show here, pretty much this is, this is your area. So you are, you're telling me where we're going.

Jess West  08:25

Alright. Well, the first thing that is typically talked about with my clients, and that I hear among setters in general, is about energy. And that's either lack of energy, like "I just don't know that I can give any more. I feel like, I'm full time, I don't know where I can squeeze it in, or if my body will even let me do that." Or it's preservation of energy. You know, they come to me for injury prevention, things like as specific as "I want more mobility," but also as like a fear that kind of blocks them from doing more than they're already doing. So as far as lack of energy goes, I mean, if this one's kind of easy to grasp: it's a physically demanding job. You're climbing sometimes, you know, five days a week, you know, three to five days a week is typical. Skin is thin, we don't even think about that for these guys – and by "guys", it's all inclusive, of course. Muscles are fatigued. I mean, you're just physically drained. Like I said, that was my experience. As far as how you can sort of get around that, it's tricky because you don't want to give less to your job. You can't really prevent how many days that you're working or you know, you can't really work with your schedule a whole lot, but I found that this one just comes down to communication with your crew. And especially with the head setter. You know, they know that a training program isn't going to last forever. So if you come to them saying "Hey, I've got this like six weeks that I really need to grind out this, this program," or, "Hey, I've got an event that's coming up in, you know, so many months," it's to their benefit for you to get better as a setter and for you to perform better. But they also know, like I said, it's not going to last forever, it's just this short period of time that you may play more of a supporting role some days. Or depending on what you feel like you're lacking, maybe you're like, "I claim all of the the rope forerunning for X number of weeks," you know, "I need more endurance, I will forerun every rope route." 

Kris Hampton  10:37

I like that.

Jess West  10:38

So there's ways to communicate with your crew instead of just saying, like, "Well, I work five days a week, I can't fit it in."

Kris Hampton  10:45

Yeah, communication is so important. And I think that's something I wouldn't have thought about with the like setting crew. But it is something I talk to clients about a lot when it comes to significant others, spouses, partners, things like that, you know, have that conversation with them that I'm going to need to dedicate a certain amount of my energy toward this thing for the next six, eight weeks, whatever. And, and not only are they going to be more understanding of it, but they may just understand that that is also going to keep you happier. And if you're happier, you're going to do a better job, be a better partner, whatever it is, if you're getting that time to work on yourself.

Jess West  11:34

Yeah, exactly. It's gonna make you a better member of your crew, it'll make you potentially set better routes, or different type of routes because you're thinking of things differently. You know, you're actually putting yourself in the climber's position, you know, thinking about the things that you personally want to work on could translate into the way that you're setting. So that one is yeah, it just comes down to communication. I haven't experienced a client talk to their crew and give them like this forewarning that, like, "Hey, I signed up for a program. Let's figure out how to work it in." I haven't ever heard of it going south. 

Kris Hampton  12:17

That's cool. 

Jess West  12:18

Yeah. And it doesn't have to necessarily mean that everyone has to, you know, work around you and you're trading off, you know, working hard days – that's certainly going to stay within your, you know, your responsibilities as a setter – but knowing what you're going through and having them on your team and in your corner is is going to also give you the confidence to, to do that training session and not feel like, you know, guilt for literally, you know, expending energy outside of route setting.

Kris Hampton  12:51

Yeah, I love that communication is such an important part of damn near everything. So that's a, that's a great one to start with.

Jess West  12:59

And then on the other side of that is that sort of fear or that preservation of of energy. And I think setters are somewhat unique with this one, I think a lot of us do keep it in the back of our minds that we can't afford to be injured, or how your job could be affected if you were to tweak a finger, or if you roll an ankle or something. But setters don't really have a desk option. So in the event of an injury, they're kind of, kind of out. I mean, they can run cleanup crew, they can, you know, wash holds and stuff...

Kris Hampton  13:31

But there's only so much pressure washing you can do.

Jess West  13:34

Yeah. So you add in the complexity of wanting to get stronger in advance of a competition or, you know, being that key player in a small setting crew, and the stakes are instantly higher. So of course you're like, "I don't know that I can take on a training program." You know, if you've not done one before, you could be in fear of what that could entail, you might see crazy stuff all over the internet, you know, and think like, "I'm gonna hurt myself doing that," or, you know, "That looks exhausting," or "How does that play into my career and into my climbing?" So that's a real, it's a real risk. It's a real thing that setters go through. But I think that this one also does sort of come into the same field of the last point with, you know, just communicate with your crew, but also seek out effective programming. Don't get lost in what could be going on, you know, on the internet, or what you've seen or heard from other people. Seek out a good resource, talk to someone who's gone through a full training program, get their take on it, their learnings, because it's obviously different for every single person and the same goes for route setters.

Kris Hampton  14:50

Yeah, I love that. And I also think, you know, I would, I would counter with the point of I understand where you're coming from when you say like, "I don't know if I can afford to do this because I don't want to injure myself or I don't want to, you know, not have energy for the job." But then I would also counter to those head setters who get to make the decisions, "You can't afford to not let them do it, because that's how they're progressing through the sport. It's how they're keeping themselves happy. It's, it's why they still love climbing and are still coming in." Progression is such a huge part of why so many of us do this, whether it's, and I'm not talking about grades, I'm talking about just personal development progression, you know. So you almost can't afford to not let setters have the time and energy to do these things.

Jess West  15:50

Yeah, and you made me think of something else, like, the things that you are in fear of could be the things that you're also needing to get out of programming, like the injury prevention and the endurance, like those types of things – you could actually be more efficient within your job if you had better energy reserves. And if you're able to gauge those things, or, you know, if you're afraid of getting injured, is there a reason why you're afraid of getting injured? Have you been injured previously? Are you at risk of overtraining because of the work that you're doing as a setter? So those are things that can actually be to your own benefit to, you know, to work on within your program, so then they're not a fear for you anymore.

Kris Hampton  16:36

Yeah, that's, that's perfect.

Jess West  16:37

So that kind of leads into the next one, actually, is like effective programming, and doing the right thing and having the balance in your schedule. So setters that come to me that are like, "I just need more accountability but with that comes more structure," or "I'm just not even sure what to do because I'm a full time setter." You know, there's, there's time constraints, if you're full-time, you're climbing five days a week, likely with no rest days in between, you know, you're lucky if you have an admin day or something. So finding that time to train can be really tricky. And, you know, I've found that setters tend to warm up pretty quickly. And they're getting plenty of climbing in during the week anyway. So a lot of what I focus on with them is not, it's not the climbing, it's much more specific than that. So the sessions can actually be pretty short and very focused so you are able to find and carve out those those times. You know, it depends on the individual but, you know, some folks need to like blast it all out in a single day. You know, "If I'm going to be in the gym, I'm going to be in the gym all day." And then others are like "I need that break in between." But just carving out a couple of hours to dedicate to your own progression is 100% possible. And I think it's less of a burden than you think. Because you think "I'm already climbing so much. I don't want to climb anymore." And you definitely don't have to think of it that way. 

Kris Hampton  18:14

Yeah, it's funny I, I would think – and I am not a route setter, I've never been a professional route setter, so I'm totally spitballing here, you can feel free to just shut me down if I say some wild shit that makes no sense, but – it seems like you could look at your, like your work schedule and the things you're doing in your, your work session and sort of fit those into categories of like, you know, hard boulders or a capacity type of workout. They could fit into those sorts of categories, whether it's strength and power focused, or endurance focused, or whatever. Or its capacity, just hard boulders. Low intensity endurance, if you're doing a day where you're setting a bunch of easy stuff that you have to forerun. Seems like you could fit it into those categories and then think of those as pieces of your training. Maybe not across the board, maybe not every session lines up with your training, but I suspect some of them have to, right?

Jess West  19:30

Yeah, they definitely don't have to compete with each other. It might be hard to have that kind of foresight in, you know, what you might be setting that day, what the assignment is. Sometimes there's not an assignment and it's just, you know, pick and choose grades, or pick and choose style, things like that. So you don't always have the luxury of saying like, "Oh, well this is a bouldering day, I'm in the steep only, so where am I looking at like a power day or like a limit bouldering day in my programming? Okay, I can, I can turn that into this." But when you do have that ability to, to see where there's overlap and what you're setting versus what's in your training program? 100%. Like, while you're there, you are climbing anyway, so what can you look at in your week and like, just chip off, you know, while you're, while you're setting that week? It's a little trickier, and it's going to feel a little bit more, you know, disjointed, because it's not like I'm coming in and I'm doing this thing from beginning to end. It might be pretty choppy, you know, cherry-picking from your program that way, but you can still get it all done within that week.

Kris Hampton  20:44

Yeah. And, you know, this, this brings to mind when we did Empowered in Chattanooga, and my client was there, Lucas Dietrich, and Lucas at the time was working this crazy, I don't know if it's called swing shift? I don't know what that schedule is called. But it's like for two weeks he would work night shift, and then two weeks he would work day shift. And, and so it was just a nightmare of a schedule to try to figure out how to have the energy to train. And he's an EMT, works in a hospital. So we sat down at Empowered with the whole group of folks and looked at his schedule and sort of tried to figure out how can we make this work. And we came up with a pretty good plan that Lucas and I ended up using for the next year or so until he switched jobs to a much better schedule. So I think having a coach, having someone who can look at your schedule objectively, with your input, and help you work through that can be really important.

Jess West  22:02

Yeah, for sure. I think the doing it as a team is the most important because I can't tell my client, "You're going to have energy after this setting day. So this is when you should be doing XYZ." So I typically leave the session sort of freeform, you know, you can pick the days that feel appropriate for you. You could even wait until after your setting day to say this is the right one for me to do today. And that typically works out way better than scheduling things out, you know, at the beginning of the week and saying "Monday, I do this. Tuesday, I do this." 

Kris Hampton  22:03

Yeah, pretty flexible. Most of my clients are busy parents and adults. And that's the exact same kind of programming I do with them. Just, here are your sessions: one of them will fit in almost any scenario. So yeah, let's, you know, consider the energy that you're going to be expending in the session, but let's try to just fit in whatever fits. And if you have questions, let me know. You know, I think that feels a little more empowering for the person who's trying to train when they have that flexibility.

Jess West  23:13

There's some risks to that, because then you're likely also to just let things go or to leave something out, but more often than not people, yeah, they feel that empowerment of building their own program for that week, essentially. But yeah, no matter what, you have to make sure that you add in your rest days, like those can be the non-negotiables. And maybe you schedule those in advance to keep yourself accountable. Like because I'll have setters that are like "Well, I work Monday through Friday. So I guess I'll train like Friday, Saturday, Sunday. "And that's just not, it's just not good, it's not sustainable. You're gonna come to work on Monday completely wiped out and you're not going to be a great contributor to your team. So I always suggest that one of the weekend days, or one of the days that you're not setting, you don't go in the gym, you don't train, you don't climb, you do nothing. Or you do something that's totally unrelated. But you need that mental break, you need that distance from you in the gym. And you need the physical break.

Kris Hampton  24:17

Yeah, especially the average person who's starting a new training plan is just psyched to do everything, you know, so, and that's doubly dangerous for a setter who's already in the gym, you know, 25 to 40 hours a week or more, to pack more of that in. And you had said, you had brought up that you know, we have to do it as a team because you can't know how they're feeling, and, and I just want to point out the other side of that: that the setter is coming in with this sort of preconceived notion of "Here's the only thing that works for me. Here's what's possible for me," and having a coach look at the schedule and say, "Well, what about this? What about this? What about this?" can open up some doors that they maybe thought were just closed and weren't even considering. So you're right, it is a team, doing it as a team is a really important part of it.

Jess West  25:18

Even going as specific as looking at what does your boulder setting day entail? How are you warming up for forerunning? What role do you play within your group? Because a lot of setters aren't warming up long enough because they just want to dive into the work, and they want to just like start tweaking and getting on on the climbs. But you know, if we can take that time early on to dive into what every setting day looks like, how long you're there, how much of it is actually climbing, you know – we can't know for sure, but as close as we can get – then we can also know like, what energy you have left to give the rest of the week. Can we make some changes to how you're approaching forerunning? Can we, you know, let me better understand the role that you play within the crew: like, are you the the person that does the dynos, are you the crimper, are you the like, sometimes you're the strong person on the crew, like you climb, the higher grades and so like a lot of the harder climbs are left for you. All of those things are incredibly important to tell your coach so that they know when you're climbing at your limit, when you're doing more endurance... So all of that has to get kind of factored into your programming,

Kris Hampton  26:34

That, you just, you just sparked something in my head here. And this is a wild theory, but I might just fix this whole problem right now.

Jess West  26:44

Do it.

Kris Hampton  26:45

What if, what if you are a sport climber and a setter, and on your team is someone who is a boulderer and a setter. Your seasons are a little offset usually, like the boulderer wants it to be bitter cold, where the sport climber needs it a little more warm. So you both aren't training at exactly the same times. So you buddy up with someone who climbs the opposite of you. And then that way, when it's your time to train, lower intensity, you take the easier stuff, the other one takes the harder stuff and vice versa. Fixed it. Done.

Jess West  27:27

It all goes back to communication. Always. But yeah, it's a mix and match of skill sets and goals. And like, you know, what's your specialty? What's your specialty – it doesn't have to be different disciplines. Even it can, it can just be like, "Well, I want to improve this skill. But so and so is always doing it because they're the designated forerunner for that. So let me at least pair up with them so that we can work on it together. Or I can jump in sometimes," you know, you still want to be efficient. You don't want to like, slow the team down. But you're setting all the skills, you're setting both disciplines. You have the exposure, it's just a matter of finding out where and when you can plug in. 

Kris Hampton  28:14

Yep, I love that. You want to take a break, and then we'll come back and jump to the next one?

Jess West  28:20

I actually have more on scheduling.

Kris Hampton  28:23

Keep talking then. 

Jess West  28:25

So this this part's a little trickier because...

Kris Hampton  28:28

You tell me when it's time to take a break here.

Jess West  28:30

Alright. Alright, I'll tell you. The other consideration that I touched on earlier is that a lot of setters are actually training for or trying to get to these higher level events and they want to, you know, be on those crews. And, you know, as climbers, we think of things like "I'm taking a trip," or "I have a project," or I have, "I just want to you know, level up in general." Those are the reasons why climbers look into training. Setters, I think the closest that they can come to that is the feeling of planning a trip and you only get like five days or so to climb. And it's a place that you don't get to go to often, like it's another part of the world. That's the feeling that a setter has when they've been selected for a crew because even if it's in their home gym, or it's you know, a couple cities down, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity and they have to perform at their best. So that's something that they typically want to train for to prepare. Or it's a totally different discipline, you know, they got selected to be you know, the Female A Junior Finals, you know, route, but they're actually a male boulderer, and now they have to try to train endurance for the next X number of weeks or however long they get. They also don't get a ton of notice. I think they usually get a couple of months, but the stakes are super high. And the intensity is is totally different than, than their day job. So they have to, typically endurance is like the key because they have to pull a lot of hard moves. And they have to do that for, you know, roughly five days or so. But when it's a higher level event, they are typically setting and forerunning the finals boulders early in the week. So think about compression, coordination, typically powerful, bigger moves, a lot of fiberglass that your skin gets wrecked early on, right? Jetlag can be a thing, of course, but otherwise, you want them to be as fresh as possible for the early part of the week. The challenge then, is that sometimes they're working their normal jobs all the way up until the day that they fly out or the day that they travel. So they don't have that luxury of sort of peaking and then deloading and then getting ready to perform. They're already performing at a high level all the way up to the day of the event. And then after they set those finals, the week isn't over. And now they have to strip the finals boulders or move to a different part of the gym. And then they have to set and forerun all the qualifier boulders, which in a lot of cases are actually harder than the finals climbs. You know, that's because there's more time for the climbers to actually get on them, figure them out, move on them. So the intensity is still high, but way higher volume. So if you have the time, you have to try to up your endurance because that alone can be a game changer in how you perform.

Kris Hampton  31:46

And when you say endurance, are we talking like, you know, on the wall endurance, are we talking all day stamina? Are we, what sort of endurance are you talking? 

Jess West  31:57

Yes, sir. All of the above, all of the above, I mean, the days are long, and there's not a lot of breaks. You know, you're waking up early, you're in the gym setting, forerunning, whatever. And sometimes you're doing that until two in the morning, and then you have to wake up and do it all over again the next day. So having that all day stamina, you know, off the wall type of cardio strength, endurance. Fueling yourself, eating better – that needs to be factored in. In addition to performing at a high level in the later part of the week when you're already exhausted, you know, because you've already set the finals boulders, you've already given a lot of yourself potentially to the earlier part of the week. So on the wall endurance, off the wall endurance, moving, more, moving better, feeling better...

Kris Hampton  32:52

So it probably pays for route setters to – sometime early in their career – build up a big engine, so to speak, so that they have, you know, this, this large base of aerobic capacity that they can use when they encounter these long days and they want to be able to recover quickly. So that's probably a pretty smart play early in a route setter's career.

Jess West  33:22

Definitely. And believe it or not, a lot of them come to me and that's one of the things that they want to see in their program – is more endurance. And it's because they found that out the hard way, or it's because they've been, you know, maybe it's a bouldering only gym, and then they've just been, you know, doing the same sort of thing for weeks on end, months on end. And they need that extra capacity for a trip or you know, in this case, for a competition.

Kris Hampton  33:48

Interesting. I wouldn't have, wouldn't have thought about that. That's good beta.

Jess West  33:52

Yeah. And now we can take a break.

Kris Hampton  33:55

Alright, break.

Kris Hampton  33:59

Are you searching for a training structure that actually works? For over a decade, we've helped climbers prepare for their goals. We've seen patterns emerge showing what's most effective for each level of climber. Those patterns became our Proven Plans, a training system that you can follow from complete beginner to V double digits, delivered through our mobile app. Workouts geared toward your goals and focused on improving not only strength and power, but tactics and mindset, as well. Each Proven Plan comes with a built-in group chat and an option to work directly with one of our coaches. We don't believe in a one size fits all approach to climbing. You shouldn't either. 

Kris Hampton  34:37

Right. Alright, we are back and that's all I'm gonna say because Jess is running the show here.

Jess West  34:44

Okay, so the next one is motivation. This one is is a very tricky one. It sometimes comes in the form of "I just need accountability. I'm not motivated to stay in the gym," but there so much more to it than that. It's really hard. I don't know if you've ever done it. But to play the same place that you work is, is just not fun. It's exhausting mentally. So finding ways to create separation, finding ways to leave the workplace and still get your training in, I mean, unless you have a full home setup, it's really challenging to do. So, you know, if you have another gym that you can show up to, even if it's a competitor, just do it. You know, don't tell anyone that you're there. Don't tell anyone you have a punch pass there. Whatever needs to happen. You have to go or you have to be able to.

Kris Hampton  35:42

Incognito, with a little glue on mustache. Well, all the setters have mustaches now, so...

Jess West  35:48

Do whatever you have to, because hopefully, if you're in someone else's setting, you can, in theory, detach yourself from the setting and just focus on your climbing. I've seen so many times though, where that's so much easier said than done. Because the setter mind takes over and it is not easy to turn off. When you are forerunning, typically, whether it's as a team or as an individual, you get on a move, you don't like it, you change it. You get on a move, it's a little too hard for the grade, you change it. If you're the climber, you don't get that luxury. And I think setters forget about that, as far as climbers go. And I think climbers don't actually appreciate and understand what the setter mindset is either. So unless you can go to somebody else's gym, under somebody else's setting, and, and get on their stuff. So turn off your setter mind somehow, if a move is difficult, if it's uncomfortable, you got to try to push through that and not immediately come off. Because what typically happens is you give like 60% because you're like, "I'm not going to try that hard on a move that I don't necessarily want to do, it's V4, it shouldn't have this V7, you know, gaston on it," you know, whatever it might be. Or, you know, "This was set for a body size that's not mine," or, you know, whatever it is. It just, you have to try to find a way to walk into that gym completely unbiased, you don't give a shit about the setting. It's not your crew, it's not your climb. You just have to walk in and climb it. And you, you also have to remember that now you have the luxury of saying, "This setting sucks." And then you walk on to the next problem. Be a consumer for a minute, turn around, and find something that you do like, or make up your own problems.

Kris Hampton  37:44

Do you think it helps to go climbing with someone who's not a setter? Who can't commiserate about how terrible the problems are?

Jess West  37:56

Yes, I definitely think so. Because if we get setters together, they're just gonna talk about setting. Yeah, if you can, yeah, I think so. But I do think that it is, it is really difficult to turn off that setter mind no matter who you're around, because you're constantly... it's, it's like an internal processing thing of like, "Well, why can't I do that move? I wouldn't have done that if it was my gym." It becomes very personal when it really doesn't have to be. It's somebody else's work that they all, as a team, agreed fits the grade, fits the community there, maybe your communities are totally different. So it doesn't have to be for you. And you shouldn't even look at the grades, if you can help it, you know, because then you're gonna have that same bias of like, "Oh, for this grade on this wall, they shouldn't have done this move." And you start getting down into this rabbit hole.

Kris Hampton  38:47

When you were first saying this, I thought, well, this is a good opportunity for like a spray wall or a board. But then I think there's also the like trap of, "Oh, I don't like the way this hold is positioned. So I'm just gonna go to this one instead." Because there's always one right next to it, you know, and on a board, it's just like, you know, "I don't like this one swipe left, swipe left." You know, you can just keep swiping until you find a thing you like.

Jess West  39:17

Yeah, I actually wrote that down in my notes, like board climbing is a great way to detach yourself, maybe. In theory, it is, because there's a lot more to choose from, you can make up your own. But you're also not really pushing yourself. Maybe there's a reason why you're falling off of that move. And you haven't had to work through it because you've had the ability to change it. Well now you can't. So maybe you've uncovered a weakness that you didn't know that you had and it's just gonna take a couple of tries and then you've unlocked it.

Kris Hampton  39:53

So you have to use those opportunities when they present themselves, I think.

Jess West  39:57

Absolutely. And I think being humbled is a hard thing, you know, so...

Kris Hampton  40:02

For all of us.

Jess West  40:04

For everybody, right. But to have this like catalog of moves and these rules of like "If this, then this," you have a lot more working against you if you're a setter than if you're just a climber that's like, "Oh, this is a weakness that I know I need to fix." 

Kris Hampton  40:22

Sure, sure. You you brought up something earlier, that I'm gonna sidebar us on. And I hadn't really thought of this. I think it's something I've thought about in the past, but never really put a ton of emphasis on. And that's skin, particularly for setting comps with fiber, big fiberglass holds. Every comp I've ever emceed, I look at the setters and all their fingertips are bleeding, you know, the same as the competitors who are in finals. And that, for me, is the biggest motivation sucker in my climbing, is when my skin either hurts or just isn't good. And as a setter, you really don't have a ton of time away from grabbing all those holds. So what is the skin care like? Is it even possible to have good skin as a setter?

Jess West  41:21

I think they have decent skin going into it. But you can't, you can't make up for the amount of times that you're touching fiberglass. You can't do that in your everyday, you can't necessarily prepare for that. You could within your training, stick to mostly fiberglass holds as you get closer...

Kris Hampton  41:43

And just build up the callus for it?

Jess West  41:45

Right. Because you know that that's going to show up. I've also experienced like, they just have a different, they can push beyond where I am willing to go. When my skin hurts, it holds me back. When their skin hurts? Oh, well.

Kris Hampton  42:00

Yeah, I'm old and fragile. So I'll quit. Ouchie! I'm done.

Jess West  42:07

Yes, 100%. Going back to the setter mind and the motivation, if you do have that home setup, I mean, or even if you have a little bit that you can do at home, do as much as you possibly can so that you're not at the gym any longer than you have to be. Because for some setters, that, you know, distance that they're driving, or you know, whatever it might be, they want to get in the gym, work, continue to train, and then go home. So that once they're home, they're done. They can, they can shut off. But for other people, they need that break in between, because that actually does help them turn off that setter mind, they need that separation for a minute. Go home, shower, change, eat food, and then you come back as just a member, you know? That itself has its challenges, I mentioned earlier, like, you know, the gym is busy, and now people are getting on what you just set, so you still can't get away from it. Naturally, people want to stop you and ask you questions, talk about the new set with you. And that's a really hard position for a setter to be in because they want to engage with the community, they want to have those moments and that feedback, but they themselves need their time to train. And I don't think that members realize that. So I don't know what that, what that solution is. I think it depends on the community. It depends on you know, the busyness of the gym, maybe that there is a benefit to...

Kris Hampton  43:42

Identifying how willing you are to be a jerk.

Jess West  43:45

Right? Yeah, put in your headphones. 

Kris Hampton  43:50

Yeah, I spent a lot of time you know, early in the Power Company, when we were one of the only games around, you know, and the blog was really popular, and I was climbing in a commercial gym at the time. And, and I would be right in the middle of a session and someone would want to talk to me for an hour about training questions. And I'm just like, I finally got to the point where I had my resting bitchface so that no one would talk to me. I got really good at it or just glaring at people when they tried to ask me questions. But finally, I just got good at saying, "Look, you're gonna have to find me another time. I can't talk about that right now." And it's it seems like a dick move. But if it's what you have to do to preserve your own mental health, then you should absolutely be doing it.

Jess West  44:38

100%. And I think as long as you have that understanding with your GM and with your head setter that like "When I'm in the gym, I'm there to train so I'm not going to engage with the community. It's no disrespect, but I need my own time." Then it's all good. But you know if word gets out that like so-and-so etc. is at the gym and they're always brushing off, you know, the climbers that come up to them, then that's not going to go over well with your management team. So again, communication. Just say upfront, like, "Hey, just so you know, when I'm, when I'm here to train, I'm not wearing my routesetting shirt. I'm gonna have my earbuds in, and I'm just here for myself. So don't expect me to, you know, engage with the community like I would, if I was watching them climb the thing right after I set it."

Kris Hampton  45:26

They all just need a shirt that they wear when they come into climb that says: Yes, I'm a setter, don't talk to me about your problems.

Jess West  45:34

Off-Duty.

Kris Hampton  45:34

See what I did there? Don't talk to me about your problems. 

Jess West  45:37

My problems are not your problems. Actually they are. Yeah, that's a tricky one. But yeah, just do what you can to try to detach yourself. And... 

Kris Hampton  45:55

I love the beta about going to a different gym, if possible. And if you can get yourself into the mindset of, "I'm going to this different gym, I know my setter brain is going to fire up and, you know, have have an issue with a lot of the things I see. But that's why I'm going there, this is an opportunity for me to do something I wouldn't set, my team wouldn't set, that's going to be wildly different for me." It's just like a day spent adapting to a new area, new rock, whatever. If you can get in that mindset, I think you're ahead of the game.

Jess West  46:31

It might be a good thing, to have exposure to somebody else's style. "Well, I wouldn't have done that. But let me see how it climbs, or let me see what they're trying to go for here." Like use it as exploration, not as a way to sort of put down other climbs that you wouldn't have done.

Kris Hampton  46:50

Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that we do in rock climbing is we like, we want to name all the moves, we want to name all the positions, as if you know, a drop knee is a drop knee is a drop knee. But in reality, there are millions of variations, you know, of that one single move. And so ultimately, rock climbing is a game of constant adaptation, you are, you are being forced all the time to adapt to a slightly different position, slightly different orientations, slightly different tension, different anxieties, different, you know, all sorts of things. So going to a new gym is is a great way to do that. So... 

Jess West  47:37

Yeah. And that actually leads into my last topic, which is lack of specificity. 

Kris Hampton  47:44

We're good at these segues here. 

Jess West  47:46

I know, it's like we planned it. Usually setters come to me saying, you know, "I want to get better at XYZ, I want to be more valuable. I'm training for this competition." And I think it, maybe it'll come as a surprise to you and to the listeners that there's actually more that setters want to get better at, there's a laundry list of things that they need to improve, versus maybe the average climber that just has this like one couple of you know, one or two things that they're like, "I'm taking this on for this season or for, for this training cycle." And maybe it's because climbers are more likely to have back-to-back training cycles. And so they're able to chip away at their weaknesses, but I think it's actually because many climbers just want to be well-rounded. And so from the beginning, you're exposing yourself to as much as possible, you are, you know, trying to progress in a, in as linear of a way as possible. So you're getting a lot thrown at you, a lot of different styles, you know, hopefully you're not avoiding things that you're bad at and only getting on the things that you're good at. But for setters, it's, it's actually that they typically have their skill set, and they have this position within their crew. And they just continue to hone that skill set because of the dynamics with their team. So you might have someone who's better at crimping, someone who's great at coordination, or a smaller setter that is typically used to gauge body size or they're specifically you know, utilized for youth climbing or whatever it might be. But because of their like niche, they don't always have the opportunity or have that like gentle nudge to climb outside of that. So they'll come to me with like a list of hold types, angles, styles of climbs. I've had a setter that was like, "I need to get better at lock offs, pockets, tiny crimps, compression, coordination, and climbing in a small box. I also need to get better at hip mobility." And I'm like, "Okay..."

Kris Hampton  49:53

Let's do all that today.

Jess West  49:55

I'm gonna throw another another theory at you here.

Jess West  49:55

Where do we focus? Yeah. So and also considering the competition angles, sometimes the crew is selected because of that skill set, you know, that each individual has. They're building this crew that as a whole, they can get through this week of setting together, but individually, they, there's no way they could have done it. So setters almost cannot be very well-rounded. It's nice for them to have a good baseline, but it's beneficial to them as a valuable member of a crew to have a niche or to have this like, very specific skill set that maybe someone else on the team doesn't have.

Jess West  50:01

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  50:09

It's not in, it's not in competition with your theory, I think it just adds to it. I see a lot of climbers who think they're well-rounded. But what they've actually done is just prepare for their local area that they're able to get out to often. Like if I go into the gym anywhere in the world with a Red River Gorge climber, I know they're a Red River Gorge climber. They might think they're really well-rounded, but they climb like a Red River Gorge climber. And I think they just don't know that they're not well-rounded. Whereas I think setters are so involved in the like, "These are all my different options." And these, you know, they're, they're really tuned in to what this other setter does, or this setter does, and what everyone's like specialties are, that they, they understand what they're missing, whereas the average climber doesn't. They're like, "I sent my project, I got all the things."

Jess West  51:44

Yeah, and it's not that, you know, the setting crew doesn't all climb on those, those things. You know, just because you're not the coordination climber doesn't mean that you don't have to forerun it. It just means that you, that is not your specialty. So you may not actually get the move, you might take more attempts on it than somebody else. But you actually might be a better representation of the climbing community that needs several attempts, they're not just going to dial it in. So you might actually be able to determine the grade a lot easier than somebody who's amazing at coordination and set the coordination move. 

Kris Hampton  52:23

Totally.

Jess West  52:24

It could feel V0 to them. So...

Kris Hampton  52:26

And setters also have this like really concentrated experience of being able to compare themselves with other people who can do the things they want to be able to do. You know, we get it in the gym if we see somebody send a thing we're working on. But the setters are very often there, you know, "This move is really hard. Oh, that person just floated it," you know, they get to watch it in this really concentrated experience. So it's really imprinted on them, "I need to get better at that. And that and that and that."

Jess West  52:59

Right. Yeah, that's, that's actually a really good point. And yeah, it's not in competition with my theory, but it's, it is sort of leading into why, why they have the list. And it's not like, "Well, I'm I know I'm good at these things." So, you know, most climbers that I work with, it's like power endurance, and compression, and this specific angle, but it doesn't get down to the specifics of like, "Okay, I can't crimp at this angle on this type of hold," like it would with a setter.

Kris Hampton  53:34

Most climbers come in, like, "I need to get better at strength and power and power endurance." I'm like, "Oh, you don't say?"

Jess West  53:41

Yeah. "Tell me more." Yeah, so I think yeah, having, having the exposure within their crew, and then being tested on that within a competition or when they're setting with a different crew. It's very apparent to a setter, what they're great at, what they're decent at, and what they really need to get better at in order to contribute at a higher level.

Kris Hampton  54:09

Yep. So I think I sidetracked us a little bit. Are we, are we saying that setters come in with too many specific things that they want to get better at? What is our, what are we saying here?

Jess West  54:27

No. Well, yes. So I think originally, my thought is, they themselves lack the specificity that they need in order to do X – whatever the goal is.

Kris Hampton  54:42

Mmmmm, like the things that they're doing on their own at their job.

Jess West  54:46

Right, they get really good. They get really good at doing things they were already pretty good at. Because of the way that the crews typically work. You know, you're, you're still right – they get the exposure and they know what they need, but they don't have the opportunity to get those things or to be forced to do it at less than their limit. A lot of times, they find something, like let's say it's, you know, they're really bad at lock off's on pockets. They will, they'll try it and they won't, they won't get the move, but someone else on the crew will so then they'll move on to the next boulder – they didn't actually get a chance to project it, figure out the body position, figure out the right angle. So having ,having the knowledge of what they need to work on is excellent. They know the specifics, but they don't have the opportunity or the programming or the knowledge, or they don't think they have the time, to be able to achieve those things.

Kris Hampton  55:46

Right. Totally. I could see that for sure. Yeah, yeah. Alright. That's what we got.

Jess West  55:55

No big deal.

Kris Hampton  55:57

You know, what I would like to do? I think we should do a part two to this at some point where we give some like, and maybe, maybe you should poll some people, some of your setter folks to get some really like concrete tips from some setters that are like, "Use these kind of gloves," or, you know, "Here's what I consider when it's my forerunning day. I don't start from the bottom every time once I do the bottom moves. I don't do those again," some things like that, because I think this conversation was really valuable. And I'd love to continue this for the sake of, of setters everywhere.

Jess West  56:43

Yeah, definitely. I mean, these are just things that I've learned, partially from me being within the setting community, you know, like you said, my friends, my husband, myself a little bit; these are things that I've picked up. But mostly from the patterns that I've seen with, with clients. So I didn't learn a lot of this until I tried to train setters, and realized that these things continue to come up but they're not talked about very much. So yeah, I would love to, to bring these points directly to the, you know, that community and have them test out these theories that we're talking about and, and then give their tips on how they got around the motivation, how they train the things that they're the weakest at, you know, how they train, or how they tend to schedule their week...

Kris Hampton  57:41

Yeah, maybe, maybe we devise a little series of questions based on all of these and give them to a handful of setters and get their answers either written or voice notes on their phones, if we can get them to do that. And, and we'll make an episode out of it. 

Jess West  57:59

Yeah, I would love that. 

Kris Hampton  58:01

Cool. Well, I think this has been great. I, I, I'm still stuck on communication, because I hadn't considered that. And I think it's such a powerful thing that so many people miss out on and if they can combine it with all of these other things. I think it's so smart and could go a long way.

Jess West  58:21

Yeah, training doesn't have to be a secret, you know, like, let your let your people know what you're doing and why you're doing it. And that could unlock a lot of these mental barriers, physical barriers. It's definitely nothing to feel like, not ashamed of, but it's nothing to hide. You know, everybody wants to improve. That's why we're doing it, setters included. So just talk to your people.

Kris Hampton  58:50

Yeah. And we, you know, climbers out there who are not setters, say thanks to your setters, and then just keep it moving, you know, let them climb a little bit.

Jess West  59:00

Tip your hat to 'em and keep it moving.

Kris Hampton  59:02

Exactly. My problems are not your problems. Are you on Instagram @jess... is there an underscore in there? Jess underscore?

Jess West  59:18

@_jesswest_  Had to get creative because I guess there's a lot of us out there. 

Kris Hampton  59:22

I knew there were some underscores out there. So if you are a route setter or want to work with Jess reach out to her directly, or you can sign up for the wait list on our website, or shoot us a message that you want to work directly with Jess and we will, we'll do a part two to this coming up down the road. Jess, thank you. I appreciate you running this one so that I don't have to. And letting me throw a softball duo at you so I can feel good about myself for change.

Jess West  59:54

I'm glad I got it. I'd be so embarrassed if I didn't. "Who now?" 

Kris Hampton  1:00:00

I would have been embarrassed for you as well. 

Jess West  1:00:02

Yeah. You would have ended the podcast. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:06

I'm always embarrassed for Nate when he doesn't get them but...

Jess West  1:00:09

Oh, I love it because I usually don't either. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:11

It's been going on so long now I'm just like, "Fuck, I'm old. No one knows my references."

Jess West  1:00:16

It's also hard to find that many duo's, you know. 

Kris Hampton  1:00:19

Yeah, it is. I work hard at it, that's all I do all day, research. Alright, and you guys know where to find us: powercompanyclimbing.com You can find us on the Facebook's, Instagrams, Pinterest's and we're not on the Tiktoks, though, you know, I thought about it. And certainly no Twitter's, especially while Elon is over there running the show, shooting rockets off into space. You will not find us on the Twitter's because we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.