Kris and Nate sit down to discuss some of the perks and pitfalls of climbing in today’s modern mega gyms, and give some tips on how to deal with them. They’ll talk about how to handle things when the new sets are crowded, the gym is overrun with team kids, the bouldering wall is full of “weird” comp style setting, and you’re afraid attempting a boulder’s top out might cost you an ankle.

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:00

Death, taxes, and team kids. The only things we can be sure of that will ruin our lives.

Nate Drolet  00:06

Facts.

Kris Hampton  00:44

What's up, everybody? I'm your host Kris Hampton.

Nate Drolet  00:47

And this is Nate Drolet.

Kris Hampton  00:49

And together we form Tony Vlachos and Sandra Diaz-Twine.

Nate Drolet  00:55

You're making these up now.

Kris Hampton  01:00

No, these are affectionately, these two humans are affectionately referred to as the 'king and queen of Survivor', because they are the only two-time winners of the show. 

Nate Drolet  01:14

Oh, okay. 

Kris Hampton  01:16

Survivor, and we're talking today about surviving, surviving, I can't talk today, the modern mega climbing gym. And essentially, we're going to look at the five features of modern mega gyms that influence how we interact with them and how we conduct our sessions. I think there are kind of five big areas that we can look at here. And maybe we can give some actionable information for folks on how to avoid the the death of climbing that could happen if you don't actively try to avoid it. And I am not super familiar with how to survive in the modern climbing gym because I'm, I feel lucky, actually, that I'd never fortunate had to spend a lot of time in modern climbing gyms I have during workshops and clinics that we've done. So I've gotten to know them a little bit and sort of understand the layout and what goes on in there. But the vast majority of my time has been spent spent in pretty small gyms and now in a home gym that has all the things I need and really nothing more. So I do feel pretty lucky.

Nate Drolet  02:31

Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lot what a lot of my past experiences were climbing in really small gyms, a lot of home walls, just tiny little places. You know, plot everything was always plywood walls. Yeah. And now was just what was common for me for a long time. But, you know, for the last two years, I was in Houston, climbing at one of the massive mega gyms there, which let me just say, incredible place, like as far as its enormous, beautiful, like, everything you could want and need. And lots more for climbing.

Kris Hampton  03:11

Yeah, and I, you know, one of the features that I love of the smaller gym is the tight knit community. And it's one of the things that I've found really hard to recognize in huge mega gyms. There doesn't seem to be as central a tight knit community, I'm sure they exist, kind of on the periphery and little cliques and things like that, but not really a tight knit community. And I do think you were lucky to climb at a gym where, and I've said this several times on the podcast that Sydney, who was the manager over there, really created a fantastic community and cultivated a community with the employees and the, you know, the patrons.

Nate Drolet  03:57

Yeah, yeah, it was awesome. super grateful for that. You know, and something that we both kind of noticed as we traveled the country, it did seem like the further from rocks you got, the more a community formed in gyms, which makes sense. Because you go, I mean, yeah, you go to a gym in like Colorado, and I mean, people know each other, but it was super common... I mean, we, you know, we would do workshops in places where people would be like, "Oh, yeah, like, I climb around that guy three nights a week, but never said 'Hi,' I don't know what their name is, or anything like that." Because, you know, the gym is much more of a utility in a lot of these places where your main focus of climbing in the gym is like it's what you do when you can't be climbing outside.

Kris Hampton  04:42

Yep, totally. So, I do think you're lucky in that respect. Let's start number one, the thing you see when you first walk up to a gym, into the gym, are the holds and the walls. You know, this is essentially the scaffolding for this business. If the, if the setting is the product that they're putting out, then the holds and the walls are the scaffolding for that business. So I think in the, in the modern mega gym, the big change that I've seen over the years, and that, that I see in every gym, is that it's kind of like, big macro holds, big volumes, big sweeping walls, pretty tall walls – scary tall in a lot of cases. And almost all the holds are super friendly. Yeah, you know, there's not, there's not the tweaky-hard-to-use little crimps anymore. At least not regularly. Pockets, maybe make a comeback here and there, but they're usually absent. So talk to me a little about the holds, walls, that sort of thing that we see in the gym and how we can, how we can make sure we're getting what we need if we're outdoor rock climbers.

Nate Drolet  06:14

You know, I think you nailed it in a lot of fronts, like the holds are bigger, they're beautiful, they're pretty.

Kris Hampton  06:21

And with all the real estate, that's there, I mean, you know, tons of square footage, you have to have big holds to fill up the space.

Nate Drolet  06:29

Absolutely. And because now route setters use hold color to denote your climbs rather than tape, so you have to have a lot more distance between climbs. Like they even have to take things like colorblindness into account. Because once chalk gets on holds, they kind of all become a pretty general similar shade, so you can't put, you know, reds right next to oranges, or blues right next to greens, or purples next to black, like there are all these different things you have to like kind of be aware of. And because of that, you need to spread your climbs out a little bit more. And when you spread those climbs out, little holds look awful. Like you have a big pretty, you know, 15 foot tall wall that's a 45 foot wide, you know, swath and you have these little micro-crimps on it and you know, no volumes, no big holds. It looks awful. You're just like, "Hey, setters didn't show up for work this week. Like they just put some foot jibs up and called it a day." Like it and it looks so good with these big volumes, big holds.

Kris Hampton  07:32

Yeah, I mean, I remember you and I going into a gym, the name just popped out of my head... in Virginia...

Nate Drolet  07:45

Oh uhhhhh, Sport, Sport Rock. 

Kris Hampton  07:47

Yeah. And there was a route in there that was like all these enormous like human-sized half moons and you could have fit inside every one of those volumes. And both of us were like, "Oh, dude, we have to climb that."

Nate Drolet  08:05

Will be top roping this right now.

Kris Hampton  08:06

That's, that's the first thing I want to do right there as soon as I'm warmed up. 

Nate Drolet  08:10

And also top roping, not leading, because leading that would have been horrifying. Because those holds stuck out like three feet from the wall. Yeah, it's just like trad climbing 5.6, it's like, "I guess I'll just die."

Kris Hampton  08:22

Yeah you'd get stuck in a chasm and have to be rescued.

Nate Drolet  08:26

Kris, I need you to go to the top and lower a rope down. Get me out.

Kris Hampton  08:29

Yep. But it looks great. It looks, looks amazing. Super fun to climb. So...

Nate Drolet  08:33

Super fun. 

Kris Hampton  08:33

I'm not mad at the giant holds.

Nate Drolet  08:35

Yeah. So there's some cool things about that. I think one thing that's important to keep in mind with these bigger shapes is that they're more ergonomic often, which lets you get a higher volume of climbing and it's lower impact. But, you know, it's harder to prepare yourself for small crimps. Like what I see in a lot of gyms, between like traveling and where I was climbing, is they will kind of sprinkle in a few crimp lines here or there, and some gyms even kind of have a limit. They're like, "Hey, we're not going to put hard crimping in, on an overhang until it hits V6, V7, V8, something like that." Which ironically, makes it really hard to warm up for those things. Um, like, I would love some more like V4 heinous crimp problems.

Kris Hampton  09:21

And hard to build up to them. Yeah, I've I've heard some coaches say, "The skills you use at V7 aren't the skills you use at V10." But frankly, that's bullshit. They're the exact same skills and it's the same way with V3 to V6. Why not learn those skills at a lower level so that you can apply them once you get to V6?

Nate Drolet  09:42

Absolutely. So yeah, like, same, similar thing with pockets. I've heard of people say like, I've heard route setters say, you know, "We're not going to put pockets on anything below V6 unless it's like vert or slab kind of thing and it's just absolute bucket pockets. Like we're not going to kind of set hard pocket moves until it's something harder because harder climbers should be able to prepare themselves better, they'll be prepared." But the irony is that if they're not there, you're not gonna be prepared. 

Kris Hampton  10:06

Right and you're, you're assuming they're going to prepare themselves on their own for this thing that you then throw at them later. And I don't think that's a good idea.

Nate Drolet  10:16

Yeah. You know, bigger holds are easier to use for your feet, for sure, like, you know. I was joking just the other day that there are times I'll be climbing and I'm using like, on a 45, half pad incut crimps, and I'm stepping on toasters. Right, like, totally could not have bigger footholds. And it's like, okay, like, that's cool, I could climb this in my tennis shoes. But like, this is not what I want to be doing, you know, as, as someone who wants to prepare for the outdoors.

Kris Hampton  10:48

Yeah, what are some ways around these things in the modern mega gym? Is there a way to get yourself prepared for small crimps or for pockets or for little feet that you you're very likely to encounter when you go outside?

Nate Drolet  11:05

I think there are, you know – and this is kind of specific just to hold types so far, we haven't talked about the walls yet – but I think for like for footholds, we have a drill that we like to use called Worst Feet in the World, and you practice climbing boulders, but stepping on either worse footholds that are around or step on small little details of the holds that are near you. So maybe it's just, it's a big Font, you know, Font rippley sloper? Step on a tiny little ripple on the corner, things like that. So intentionally use worse footholds. I've got, I've had some clients who climb out in Smith, and when they go to the gym, they'll just use the bolt hole in all the holds, which is amazing to me. Like they just don't even step on the holds during this drill. They just step, either that or they pull a Brook Rabatou and step in the bolt holes, the T-nut holes. 

Kris Hampton  12:00

Yeah, the bolt holes on the wall, the T-nut holes, or I really like the bolt hole on the holds themselves, especially for these big macro holds. I think that's smart. 

Nate Drolet  12:09

Yeah, so you can do things like that to practice worse feet. As far as crimping goes, like, you can make up boulders. I think going the, you know, I think making up is a good way to go. But also seek out the things that do exist. Because one thing that I did notice, like, let's say, you know, this whole, your whole gym might only have a handful of like, really hard like micro-crimp lines because they're not that popular. They're not super fun. I would much, I would much rather for enjoyment climb on, you know, some beefy, rounded, comfy holds that I'm like monkeying around on. 

Kris Hampton  12:45

Oh, yeah, every day. 

Nate Drolet  12:46

Yeah, way more fun. But these little crimp lines exist. So you kind of have to go hunt them out and repeat them and repeat and repeat and repeat as long as they're around.

Kris Hampton  12:57

Yeah, and I think you know, even though gyms don't have a ton of density like they used to – and that's something we should maybe talk about as well, because it does hold us back in some ways – but there's almost always a way to make up slight variations of things. So you know, maybe you're climbing V4 and there's a V7 crimp line right next to this V4 you're doing. Add in one of those crimps using your big V7, or big V4 feet and, you know, go jug, crimp, jug instead of jug, jug, jug, or whatever, you know. Make up little variations. Doesn't have to be an entirely new problem, it can just be one hold that makes the difference. 

Nate Drolet  13:41

Absolutely. You know, and to kind of carry off of that too, we talked about this is the section on holds and walls, the walls in big gyms are enormous. Once again, they're really pretty and you have these big open spaces, it would look silly to have 8 foot tall walls inside of you know, places with 40, 40 or 50 foot ceilings, right? So they don't. They put in, you know, something that's a third of the height of the gym, essentially. And they're kind of terrifying. Like, they're scary, man. I've seen a lot of bad falls, like and also I think as far as for trying to get top end power, like big long boulder problems isn't the best way about it.

Kris Hampton  14:26

Yeah, totally. And, you know, even if it's, even if it's not a bad fall there, you're almost always being a little more cautious up there so it's holding you back from giving 100% effort in a lot of cases. I mean, you know, we're, we're held back from giving 100% effort just because we're humans most of the time, you know, our bodies regulating that, but you can't give your top effort when you're also scared and worried about this fall. And I mean, it's a real thing to get up there and be scared, be breathing harder. First time I climbed in a mega gym with a mask on, I was like, I couldn't breathe after the top of some of these boulders because I was scared up there, I was holding my breath, you know? And it really just pointed out to me that people who are who really, who put a lot of stock in "I have to top this boulder, I have to top this boulder." A lot of them are spending a lot of energy just being scared. Which also has its benefits, you know, if that's what you want to work through.

Nate Drolet  15:31

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think a good way to think about it is, if you ever feel like you're high enough off the ground that you should downclimb before you drop, you're probably high enough off the ground that you're not just like, you know, eyes closed, everything flexed, going for it on that next hold. Like something that was really, I think, special about a gym I used to climb at – Tennessee Bouldering Authority, no longer around – you know, I talked about earlier how everyone, everyone wants to climb in these dingy little, you know, dungeon training centers that are all plywood and dark. And it's just for, you know, the 'strong kids'. Everyone wants that. But they all seem to be going out of business. And it's because they're not fun. And they're not pretty. They can be fun. But it's...

Kris Hampton  16:17

And the people who want that aren't the people who want to pay for memberships either. 

Nate Drolet  16:20

Yeah, exactly. 

Kris Hampton  16:22

They want everything free. Let me set a boulder a month and give me free membership.

Nate Drolet  16:26

Yeah. And then unfortunately, those are the kinds of gyms that do those deals. Yeah. But this facility, their padding was all doubled up mattresses for the whole place, tiny place. So that's not a lot of mattresses. But in one way it was super janky. And you're just like, I'm gonna like hit a spring again today. But what was amazing about it was the walls weren't super tall, like the walls started at ground level. And so they rose up above the mattresses. So already, you had like a two foot buffer. And I mean, the walls were maybe only like 10, 11 feet. So at the very top, you hung your feet down, your feet, were maybe two feet off of doubled up mattresses. You could do a layout dyno from a hold at the top of the wall to another hold at the top of the wall, practically land on your neck, and you would just like bounce and be fine and like... 

Kris Hampton  17:16

Not recommended.

Nate Drolet  17:18

I mean, it's, it's closed, I don't think they're too worried about me like, selling people on like neck diving. But, but what was amazing about it was everyone just went all out, like you would fall on your side and back, literally, you know, nine out of your 10 times, like and that was fine. Like you never thought about sticking a landing. And some people were like, "Oh, that's bad for outdoors." But like, you know, this is training, we can separate training from outdoors, right? And when I look at these modern mega gyms, no one goes like that. I mean, the people that survive. 

Kris Hampton  17:52

No. When I'm in a mega gym and I watch people, it's almost always they drop off because they're scared. Or they half-ass it and don't get there. And they're already looking for their landing, you know, halfway through the move because they know they're not going to get there because they just half-assed it. And I do that myself in those mega gyms, you know, I'll climb up and be like, "Nope, not committing to this, this problem ended right here."

Nate Drolet  18:17

Yeah, it's like when they're doing hard foot cuts. It's like their brain is halfway torn between, "I'm going to try and stick this hold. But I also want to land on my feet." 

Kris Hampton  18:25

Exactly.

Nate Drolet  18:26

And you see it. And it's like everyone always lands on their feet in the gym. Like sometimes they hit like, roll back to their butt. But like, how many times you've seen people just backsplat? Like yeah, not that often. But also like, please don't backsplat from 14 feet.

Kris Hampton  18:39

Like it's a real skill to be able to harness that and not a lot of people can do it. Do you remember, I think it was collegiate nationals at Momentum in Houston? And Maddie, the local superstar, went for it and didn't hold the swing and landed on her neck essentially from way up and it was a really scary fall.

Nate Drolet  19:08

I think Brooke Rabatou got a knee injury or an ankle, pretty bad ankle injury at that same gym. During ummmm, we were there to coach a workshop, was that, was that the National Cup series?

Kris Hampton  19:21

Yup, that was a National Cup series. 

Nate Drolet  19:22

I think she actually had like an injury that put her out for a little while. 

Kris Hampton  19:25

Yeah, it's, it's not surprising, you know, and, and that's not, that's not just in that gym. That's in, that's a lot of gyms all around the country that I've climbed in. And one thing I think we can do to alleviate that is, you know, I tell a lot of my clients, I coach quite a few folks who are 40 and above, and I'm just like, "Ignore the arbitrary finish that the setter put up there and stop the boulder wherever you want to, you know. Oftentimes, especially if the crux isn't at the top, you've already climbed the grade." And regardless of the grade, we're just looking for you to challenge yourself. So get on something that's a grade too hard for you and finish it below the crux, you know. As long as it's challenging, as long as it, as long as you're having to project it for the right amount of time that we're looking for, then it's totally valid. And it doesn't matter what the arbitrary finish is.

Nate Drolet  20:25

Absolutely. And this was something I was gonna bring up because you were saying, "Hey, if you're a V4 climber, add that V7 crimp." Same thing. Like, you know, I've had, I've trained people who are like, V4/V5, honestly, they would probably climb like V6 consistently if they weren't scared of how tall walls are. I'm like, "Hey, most most setting in modern mega gyms isn't super cruxy, it's more power endurance, go get on a V7. I bet you you can go halfway up a V7." And that does two things: one, it gives them the appropriate difficulty to work on. But two, suddenly they're like, "Oh, I can do the moves on V7. That's cool." Like, you know, because they are so afraid to commit to, let's say V6, because they're like, "Well, I see it's a big move to the top, and V6 is hard, and I'm going to be tired up there. And I don't want to take a bad fall." But if I can put them on, you know V7, they go halfway and they're like, "Oh, that's really cool. Like I could maybe do harder."

Kris Hampton  21:23

Yep. How do you feel about wall angles in the mega gyms? I personally feel like in that aspect of things gyms have gone the right direction for sure. 

Nate Drolet  21:35

Because slab is back?

Kris Hampton  21:36

Slab is back. Vert is popular. They aren't doing giant arches and weird boxes all the time, trying to get 1,000 angles in.

Nate Drolet  21:47

Yeah, I'm happy for arches to kind of be dying. And especially those, there used to be a really popular like stair step method of like, horizontal roof to 90 degree vert, horizontal roof, 90 degree vert, and they look kind of cool, all these like really aggressive angle changes. It'll be like, you know, it looks cool, but if you've ever tried to route set on those walls, it's awful. Like oh, you can stem at anytime or, also lip turns from a roof to a vert wall? Awful. Not fun to climb on, not fun to set. It's just trash. So I'm really happy that we have like better bigger walls, not necessarily bigger, but we have a lot better walls and better angles. I think the slab's cool.

Kris Hampton  22:28

Bigger sport walls, though, which I do like. 

Nate Drolet  22:30

Oh, those are great. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  22:32

It used to be you had to do Up Down Ups in order to get enough mileage to simulate a sport climb. Nowadays, I'm like, stop that fucking route halfway up if you have to. We're not – we're training for Wild Iris – we're not training for Red River Gorge here.

Nate Drolet  22:48

Yeah, I remember the first time I went to a 45 foot sport climbing gym and I was like, "Well, I'm gonna get pumped." And now you go into a 45 foot gym. You're like, "I'm gonna have to traverse into this thing." 

Kris Hampton  22:59

Yeah, I mean, when you and I climbed at Sport Rock, we did a sport climbing session and it was like huge 80 foot walls. 

Nate Drolet  23:05

We were just like giggling the whole time. We were like, "If we had this, we never would have fallen in the Red." Yeah, like you just would, you'd just get super fit. And that's just it.

Kris Hampton  23:15

Before we move on from this topic, let's talk a little bit about the density. You know, I think it holds folks back, for like circuits, or you know it can hold you back in terms of being able to make up your own boulders. You know, when I came up in the gym, it was, it was almost spray wall style everywhere and one of the most fun best things about climbing back in those days was that you would sit around with your friends and make up boulders based on what was already on the wall. You didn't have to add holds because there were lots of them there. There was tape everywhere, but you could make up boulders and it was so much fun to do that, and I think that's been lost a little bit in the modern mega gym.

Nate Drolet  24:00

Yeah, absolutely. You know, the old standard used to be there were a handful of people that would come in once a month, they got free membership for this, there were no paid route setters, that was not a thing. 

Kris Hampton  24:10

Sad days.

Nate Drolet  24:11

And they would just litter a wall with a ton of holds and then like rolls of tape would kind of stay out or you know they'd be in a closet that was easy access. So like you know there was then, there was the guard of people who could like, they could sort of set and tape things. Like, there were the setters, then there was like the second tier people who were entrusted to be able to go tape something and put the right squiggly sign on the tape.

Kris Hampton  24:34

Yeah or the right sticker from the grocery store or something.

Nate Drolet  24:37

Exactly. From we, uh, we got Whataburger in Texas so they have stickers that they put on the burger for like, no onion, extra bacon, and things like that. So every now and then, there'd be those, it's like the pink with the bacon stickers. But that used to be it. Like, and now we have route setters who are starting to get paid more and more, which is awesome. Man, that's a hard profession and I think they should be compensated well for it. Living wages. But you know, and with that, there's a lot, like a lot of things that we got rid of. I love that we got rid of tape. I thought that was gonna be a terrible idea, initially. I was like, I loved my tape. But man, as a route setter of that era when the transition happened, the first day I did it, I was like, "Nevermind. Yeah, this is better. I don't have to tape it, I don't have to take tape down? Amazing." There are a lot of things that have gone in the right direction. But we've lost density. Like, people love fast turnover, you know, it's something we'll talk about later. But, you know, you can't have a super dense wall that also is set by color, that also is turned over quickly, unless you just have a team of, you know, a monstrous team of setters. And most climbers in the gym don't want to spend that much time on one wall, they want to go to the next wall, you know. "Oh, this wall was set on Tuesday? Well, Thursday, there's a new set, I'm gonna go to the new set." Like they don't want to spend time climbing 60 boulders on a 15 foot wide wall. 

Kris Hampton  26:12

Yeah. And you know, I have a big spray wall here at home. And I can, I can very easily pick out when new people come into the gym, whether they're a spray wall climber or not, by the way, they can remember the boulders. Or you just get overwhelmed. And it's, it's really hard, you have to put some real intention, for multiple sessions, in order to kind of get the lay of the land and understand that wall. And in the big mega gym, like you just said, when people want to be moving around, it makes a spray wall style wall tough for people because they never end up putting in the time to really understand the wall and get to know it. So they're never able to give big efforts, because they can't remember where the damned holds are.

Nate Drolet  27:00

Yeah, you know, and this is something... yesterday, we recorded a patron podcast on route memory, and I had completely forgotten about this till just now. I was talking with a client a few weeks ago and we were talking about memory on route because I was like, "Hey, how's your route memory?" He's transitioning from bouldering into sport climbing. And fortunately, he's like, "I've got great memory for that." And we sort of talked about, like, what do you think creates that? And one of the things we talked about that we both stumbled on was, we both started climbing in gyms, you know, 15 plus years ago, where makeups were almost everything. Like you would have the initial things, but then you would like have like new taped sets, but also tape fell, tape fell off. So you sort of had to remember what was there. But I mean, the makeups were half, like that was half the fun. Like, you know, you have the set things but like the makeups was where the money was. And so you'd always memorize all these different things and it was like a spray wall. And he did that as well. And we're, you know, there's something, was like maybe there's something to that, like developing boulder and route memory from climbing on spray walls, essentially, or doing makeup boulders. 

Kris Hampton  28:11

Yeah, totally. And I you know, I think there, there has been a trend the last bunch of years for modern mega gyms to have spray walls somewhere in the gym. You and I have seen in our travels that they're very often totally empty, there's nobody climbing on them, you know, cobwebs. And, and I think that's a shame. I think if if you want to be good at outdoor rock climbing, if you want to hone those skills, a good way to get around the lack of density and the the lack of creativity and being allowed to make up your own boulders is to go to the spray wall. You know, we've got a, we've got a great course that I put together with my friend Zach Alexander, Boulder Builder, that is essentially about if you have a spray wall or a board in front of you already, how can you make up really effective fun challenging boulders? So the link to that is right there in your show notes. And if you have a spray wall on your gym and you haven't utilized it, check it out.

Nate Drolet  29:14

Yeah. Last thing I'll say real quickly on hold types is skin.

Kris Hampton  29:19

Good. Yeah, for sure. 

Nate Drolet  29:20

Because man, I love the big fiberglass holds that are so cool. You know, I watch comp climbers. And I'm like I want to do that. I want to do paddle dynos, you know, like Kyra Condie, and all these other people. Super cool.

Kris Hampton  29:35

I don't want Kyra Condie's skin, though.

Nate Drolet  29:37

Oh god, no. And that's just it. Like, they're like, "Oh, I made it through from qualifiers to semis". And then they show a photo of their hands and they've got like, seven bleeding tips. And it's like I hope that ring finger really carries you in semis. Jesus, dude. Like it's always so bad. Or there'll be like, I mean, so we've got, you know, in this world cup season there are comps where there are only two weeks, even one week, between bouldering comps, you can't grow back skin that fast. That's not possible. Like, if you go through to where you bleed? Like that's it. Like that immediately adds like a week of heal time to have good skin. Like, yes, you're gonna stop bleeding. But you're not going to have good skin for a long time. 

Kris Hampton  30:17

And you're gonna bleed faster next week. 

Nate Drolet  30:19

Yeah, like, it's, it's unfortunate. Like, I think these holds are really sick. The problems on them are so fun. I mean, I like, I would always almost get sad climbing on them, because I would get to try them like twice and then I'd look down and be like, "Well, I've almost got like pink skin already from like, two paddle dynos, and I want to go climb hard on crimps." And if I, you know, if I go through too thin, my skin's just gonna sweat or like leak plasma essentially, like, or I'm gonna bleed. And that's useless to me. So I do think, between the fiberglass holds, volume climbing, and a lot of new holds, means you can get torn up fast. 

Kris Hampton  30:57

Yeah, limit your time on those things. If you're, if you want to climb more days, be effective more days, or you have outdoor climbing coming up, you really have to be careful about limiting your time on new grips. Anytime I buy new grips on my wall, I sand them down as soon as I get them. I'm like, let's get rid of this texture as much as possible. And I'm glad that I do. You and I climbed at a gym in San Francisco, Dogpatch, I think. And they had had some flooring issues where their original floor was all vinyl, and it had caused their holds to get kind of grimy and polished really quickly. And I was like, "This is great. We can climb all day in here." Because we don't have to deal with any new texture.

Nate Drolet  31:50

Yeah, yeah, and that's really funny. Like I remember the first time I climbed on a Moon board back in, like 2011. I climbed on and I was like, "God, I just wish these holds were more slippery." They were super textured, like sharp. And I was like, I wish someone would go through and just like, you know, if it was my board, I would have like just sanded them down and have them be slippery, or not fully slippery, but just like not gritty to where I was gonna like, like, I split a tip my second time ever climbing on a Moon board. And that was the first time in my life I'd ever split a tip indoors. I was like, this is absurd. But now, you know, now I want to do some benchmarks. I don't want those sticky grips. So it's very funny. Like, I think it's important to have that mindset if your goal is to use, use the gym as training to prepare for outdoors. Or if you're just in the season where you need to keep skin like, it's good to keep that in mind. But you know, if hey, if you're indoors and you're trying to send some benchmarks, you know, those sticky grips? "Brush thy board," as Ravioli says.

Kris Hampton  32:56

Yeah. Let's uh, let's move on to turnover rate. I think this is one of the big hallmarks of gyms, commercial gyms, mega gyms. And I suspect it's about average of a four to six week turnover. That's about how long a boulder is going to last. I don't really know how long sport climbs last anymore. I have no idea. In the gym that I climbed in, they lasted like a year so it was fantastic. You know, you could project a thing forever. But boulders would disappear in four weeks. That's how long they would be up. 

Nate Drolet  33:32

So sad. 

Kris Hampton  33:33

Yeah. And that reduces our ability to have long term projects. It also causes this interesting herd mentality. I talked about it in my book, The Hard Truth, where, a new set pops up and that's where everybody is. And you know, by the, by the second week a boulder has been up, nobody climbs on it anymore, because there's two new sets already and you have to go do all the new sets, you know. And I've criticized this in the past as a way to sort of keep people in the same zone of difficulty. And people fall into this trap where it's like, "I'm gonna go do all the new V4's. Next week, I'm gonna go do all the new V4's. Next week, all the new V4's," and so on and so on and so on for a decade. So what's your experience with turnover? You are in a much bigger gym, so was the turnover as fast?

Nate Drolet  34:32

Ultra fast. I think like six weeks. Man, those setters, just, good for them for putting... and they put up a lot of boulders per set.

Kris Hampton  34:41

And a lot of good boulders. So not complaining about that at all.

Nate Drolet  34:45

No, no, it is not that. Like I don't blame setters for this. Because like, I remember I was talking with one of them at one point and I was like, "You know what'd be great? Half the turnover, double the density. Like can we make this a three month turnover but you just like, double set every time?" Like everyone was like, "That would be amazing," like double back and just increase more density. And they're like, "Let me show you something." And it was just like a box of comment cards. Every third one is like, "The holds get dirty too fast from things not being set fast enough." "We need more, we need more problems set faster, turnover faster." 

Kris Hampton  35:22

Wow, that's crazy to me. 

Nate Drolet  35:24

And they turned over two walls a week. And I mean, like walls. Not like, oh, this is a little section, like, we'll do this little panel today, and that panel next week. No. Like big sections. And yet people, and I'd hear it in the gym, too! People will just be like, you know, it would be the second day of a set, and they're like, "Can't wait till Thursday when the next set comes out." 

Kris Hampton  35:45

Yeah, I need more of those V4's. Forever and ever and ever.

Nate Drolet  35:50

You know, and I think some people do fine with this. The people who are in the gym like six, seven days a week, they do pretty fine. Because they can, I mean, honestly, they can like kind of climb out a set, or like climb out what they're going to be able to do quickly. So that's not as big of a deal. And also, a lot of times those are the people complaining where they're like in there six days a week, though. They could always go back to the old sets and climb things that are harder for them.

Kris Hampton  36:17

Yeah, but I wonder if any, have you ever heard of something like this, or if any gyms do it: but you know, keep the same turnover rate, keep the same density, but do a poll every week with "What from this set would you vote to keep up?" You know, let the community vote on it. And every time you turn it over, keep one boulder up. Whatever the most people are projecting and want to keep up. I think that'd be super fun. Like, here's this here's this boulder that's now been up for nine months because keep people keep voting it in. You know, I would, I would love that.

Nate Drolet  36:57

They like mark it, take it down, wash it, put it right back up.

Kris Hampton  37:00

I've done that with a sport route in the gym, actually. And I have a note in my Google Calendar, RIP yellow route, that Yasmine and I both have, and we send each other messages on the death of the yellow route, when it finally got taken down for good.

Nate Drolet  37:19

I mean, that's something that... so used to climb at TBA in Chattanooga, and this turnover was like, kind of slow. Like, to me, it was perfect. I wouldn't have ever called it slow. But, you know, there were a lot of strong climbers there. Like that was where Jimmy Webb and like Brian Voges, two V15+ climbers, were at. And they would just keep their projects up. Because like whenever we would go through and strip the wall, like or if someone had a project that they were psyched on, it would just stay another round. And you know if it's good enough for a bunch of super strong people, like that's probably good enough for most people. But it's a, I mean, I get it. Like I don't blame setters. Honestly, I blame the patrons. Like, and I want it. Like I want new sets because it's fun. It's a great distraction. Like why would I want to go back to a boulder that's hard for me and hurting my feelings, if I can go to the new set? Shiny things. 

Kris Hampton  38:14

More V4's. 

Nate Drolet  38:15

Man, might be a soft one this time. I'd love that.

Kris Hampton  38:18

I mean, I do like the soft ones. I'm not, absolutely not mad at soft ones. 

Nate Drolet  38:23

Yeah, but I mean, there are a few things. Like circuits are super tough with high turnover rate, man. I got devastated last year, and obviously I knew it was going to happen, but I wasn't prepared emotionally. I was training for a sport climbing trip. And I had an eight month plan written out. Or not eight month, eight week. Eight month, Jesus!

Kris Hampton  38:46

It's like wow, you did live in Houston. 

Nate Drolet  38:49

It might as well have been eight months. Let's be real. 

Kris Hampton  38:51

Got a six year training plan I'm working on. 

Nate Drolet  38:53

Yeah. Eight week plan, six week turnover. You know, we both know how numbers work. But I started building these circuits ahead, you know, power endurance circuits, endurance circuits, linked 4x4 boulders, all these different things. And I started with the newest set when I did it because I was like, I want this to last. And I tried to trickle in things as I would go, but also as I got fitter and stronger, I kept kind of like... initially what were like good double boulders for me, became oh, this is a good triple boulder or a good 4x4. Like none of them made to a linked 4x4 boulder, that was like a dream, I was like, "I'll end up doing this four times in a row without resting! Down climbing jugs!" No. It's just like it's gonna be a little easier to do doubles on it. But man, the six week mark hit and I was just flying and I went in one day, I don't know what lies I had been telling myself, but I just saw like, I was like, oh, half my circuit's gone. Like because I had unknowingly like come back to some of the old sets – and the old sets no one went to anymore. It was perfect. Like so I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to use this for my limit boulders and all my endurance work and power endurance work because like, it's empty. This is the perfect place for me to take up the whole wall." And they all went down and I was just like, "I don't even care anymore." And so it was like, like, I kind of coasted in the last two weeks, got good work in but it was like, I was like, "This sucks." And same thing for repeating hard boulders. I think hard boulder circuits are maybe the most underrated training tool in climbing.

Kris Hampton  40:25

Yeah, super, super important.

Nate Drolet  40:28

And, you know, if you're losing them every six weeks, like, that's not long. Like especially I want things that are, oh, this took me three sessions to send. I want to repeat that. And if I try and find five of those, okay, that takes me 15 sessions, essentially? Well, you know, we'll assume I climb on more than one each. Let's say it takes 10 sessions. Okay, that's like three weeks? Like, I'm gonna lose those soon.

Kris Hampton  40:55

Yeah, I, I very often program for my clients, like and give them specific instructions to let's do our warm ups and our drills and flashing and things like that, let's do that out in the main gym area. And mini-projects out in the main gym area. But then when it's time to build a circuit, or have a long term project, let's do that on the spray wall or on the boards, where you know it's not going to go away. We can still be working on it the next cycle if we want to, you know, we can keep these same boulders in the training cycle next time for your circuits, if we're still working on the same project route. You know, it just doesn't make sense to get attached in that way to boulders that are out in the main gym area.

Nate Drolet  41:49

Yeah. And I hear what you're saying, but I wanted more three dimensional things.

Kris Hampton  41:54

C'mon, Nate!

Nate Drolet  41:54

It made, like it made sense for my goals. Like I was like, I need more three dimensional, more powerful climbing like...

Kris Hampton  41:59

That's one of the tough things about the boards that I often lament is like, oh, you have a, you know, 25 move compression project that you're working on? Tough. Sorry, there's no boards that do that.

Nate Drolet  42:13

Yeah. And it's like, you know, we had a Moon board and a spray wall. And I use both. I think both are great tools. But man, it, you know, for the things I wanted to do, I like also like, for me personally, it was really helpful to climb on things that I didn't set. Because man, I am really good at playing to my strengths in a way that's just weird enough where I'm like, that's kind of, that's kind of a weakness, right? Yeah, I wouldn't normally have my foot facing that way. But everything else is just like locked in. Right? Like I'm, you know. Last thing I'll say on turnover rate is competitions. You gotta deal with those. Sometimes they're the worst, some gyms – I'm not going to name names right now – but I have several clients in a certain part of the country who all climb at the same gym, and this gym will have comp series for part of the year where it's like, okay, they close the gym, essentially, for a full like, they'll close a bouldering area for a full week, once a month, for like three months in a row. And I'm about to like, call up the owner at this point, cuz I'm just like, "Hey, you are fucking up all of my clients right now. Like we got shit to send. This is your fault." And all of them are just like, "Hey, yeah," like, like they have to get punch passes to another gym.

Kris Hampton  43:28

Yeah, yeah, that's a real thing. For sure. Comps, especially you know, during the comp season, you have to be really careful about it. It could be a brand new set. Gone. It just got set a week ago, and you're like, "Hell yeah, this is gonna be in my circuit for the next six weeks." Gone next time you come in the gym because there's a comp coming up. 

Nate Drolet  43:47

Yeah, in the new comps, that might be super sparse. It also might be comp styled, weird. But not only that, like the setters probably aren't going to come and backfill super quick because they're exhausted because setting for a comp is tiring. Like it's a lot of work, a lot of forerunning, so it might be blank for a while.

Kris Hampton  44:04

Yep, totally. And we've we talked a little bit about crowds in the turnover rate and how the crowds sort of, sort of move from one section to the next, herd mentality. But we haven't really talked about crowds in general or team kids. That's our, that's our number three here: crowds and team kids. 

Nate Drolet  44:27

Death, taxes, and team kids.

Kris Hampton  44:28

Death, taxes, and team kids. They're the only things you can be sure of to ruin your day. And it's it's a real thing in a lot of gyms and certainly in the gyms that I climbed in. On team kid night, it was like, don't even bother. But I'm curious if the big mega gym like you were in, were team kids ever a thing there? 

Nate Drolet  44:52

Yes. I'm not gonna mince any words here.

Kris Hampton  44:57

The look on your face.

Nate Drolet  44:58

Yeah, there were team kids. And you know, the thing is bigger gyms typically like to have bigger teams. Not only because sometimes teams can bring in revenue, but also a lot of gyms feel like there is clout to having a good competitive team, right? So they try and build up the team as big as possible. And, you know, a lot of climbers like to go to the new set whenever it's up, and turns out, so do teams. 

Kris Hampton  45:27

Team kids are climbers. 

Nate Drolet  45:28

Yeah, exactly. And I get it and here's the thing, too, it's like, you know, when a nine year old cuts me off eight times in a row to go to the wall, like, I can't be like, "Hey, this is your fault."

Kris Hampton  45:37

You're not just gonna stomp that kid?

Nate Drolet  45:41

Maybe back in TBA.

Kris Hampton  45:43

I've actually saved a lot of children's lives at gyms.

Nate Drolet  45:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a lot of like, air traffic control of like, telling people not to like, "Hey, Stop. Don't jump, down climb. There's a child walking under you." I know they have a team shirt on, they should know better, but they don't.

Kris Hampton  46:00

Oh, yeah, I have snatched some kids up off the mats, like to their terror. Like I just saved your life, homie! 

Nate Drolet  46:07

Dude, so a lot of that. And I get it, you know, if you're a competitor, you're trying to do new boulders you've never seen. That is what a competition is: newer sets. And if you're a team, you're gonna travel as a team around the gym. So it's like, oh, we have this, you know, this cluster of 14 children, we're going to take them to this wall now. And it's probably going to be a newer set, or just anything that's like popular. Or if it's, like stronger kids, they're gonna go to a harder set. 14 of them. And they're all going to be doing the, you know, they're all needing to get in on the wall. And like, that's a lot of people, it can get hectic. So that's something that you kind of have to work around. I know people that will change their training schedules around when kids aren't there. It used to be easier. A lot of teams used to just train two to three days a week. But it's really common now that kids, I mean, kind of the standard in competitors is like man, they'll have those kids train three to five days a week. Like weekdays.

Kris Hampton  47:12

More and more like gymnastics. 

Nate Drolet  47:14

Yeah. And you'll also see they're like, oh, we have our competitive A Team, competitive B Team... 

Kris Hampton  47:18

We have the rec team.

Nate Drolet  47:21

...the rec team, the maybe pre-comp team, we're going to have them all train different days, so that they're not overlapping. Before you know it, from like, you know, it's essentially from like 5 to 8pm every weeknight during the season, which now is like, seemingly year-round.

Kris Hampton  47:36

Yeah. That is a, that's a real thing. 

Nate Drolet  47:40

Yeah. And that's like, I mean, I won't go on this tangent any longer, but... death, taxes, team kids.

Kris Hampton  47:48

Real thing, and I mean, as far as I know, the best method is to, if you have the privilege of being able to move your schedule around, move your schedule around. You know, maybe spending time on the older sets is a smart idea when you know the team kids are going to be in there, like plan that as your day of repeats or something like that. And don't make it your flash boulder day, you know, if you know the team kids are going to be there, because they're going to be on your flash boulders and you're not going to get a turn.

Nate Drolet  48:21

Yeah, you know, and if they do come to the old set, face push them out of the way. You're bigger than them.  We're adults, we pay bills, we can do this.

Kris Hampton  48:28

Not recommended. Most of the time.

Nate Drolet  48:33

Most of the time. But yeah, so team kids. And then crowds. So there's like, I have this kind of split into two groups. There are, you know, crowds in general, which I think you can in one way use to your advantage, and in one way maybe you want to avoid. And then there are also just other climbers that, you know... if we're talking about climbing at small gym or climbing at a home wall, there is an advantage to having other climbers around you. So if we're looking at crowds, like if you have some sort of like anxiety around climbing with other people near you, that can kind of be useful. 

Kris Hampton  49:12

It's a good way to work on it. 

Nate Drolet  49:14

Like you want to go climb classic boulders, classic routes outside? Other people do, too. Like, the more stars there are, the more people you're going to have.

Kris Hampton  49:22

Absolutely. And I don't even see stars as quality anymore. I just see it as how big the crowd is going to be around the boulder.

Nate Drolet  49:27

Exactly. Oh, there's this boulder with 6 five star lines and everything from V2 to V8? Woof.

Kris Hampton  49:35

Yeah, yeah, let's add that up. 30 total stars? That's approximately 300 people.

Nate Drolet  49:42

So that can be a good way to practice even if you're just on the outskirts. Like getting used to climbing around other people, negotiating lines with other people? Huge. So that can be helpful. But you know, if you, you know, if you're busy and you need to get in and out, find ways around crowds. Like don't go on the nights they set. Like, that's something that can work really well. Like let's say if they set Tuesday, Thursdays, you know, do Monday, Wednesday, Friday, things like that. That's gonna be way less busy just as a default, because a lot of people do like to line up with when the sets are.

Kris Hampton  50:18

Saturday, late morning is probably a no-no in a lot of places. There's gonna be a lot of birthday parties and you know, Cub Scout groups and things like that.

Nate Drolet  50:29

Yeah. Shout out to Momentum Silver Street. They did not allow birthday parties. 

Kris Hampton  50:34

Wow. Really? 

Nate Drolet  50:36

Yeah. We brought up Sydney Smith earlier. And yeah, when they're first opening the gym, they're like, "Should we do birthday parties?" She was like, "Nah." They're like, "But it brings in money." She's like, "Yeah, but so do adults who don't like kids. And are in downtown Houston." 

Kris Hampton  50:51

Face palm.

Nate Drolet  50:51

Like, exactly. Yeah. We're gonna have a lot less face-pushed children if we don't have birthday parties. No birthday parties, I gotta say, Man, what a blessing. We talked about crowds and like the bad things, team kids, whatever. I didn't know you could do that. I didn't know you could ban little children parties.

Kris Hampton  51:10

I mean, I'm all for that. And yeah, I'm all for that. Yeah. Wonderful. When I, when I climbed at Rock Quest in Cincinnati – this is one of the benefits of a crowd, actually – you knew coming in on a Saturday that there were going to be a Cub Scout group, a birthday party, a bunch of people just wandered in, whatever – it was going to be packed in there. Full of a bunch of people who didn't know a whole lot about climbing. So you knew walking into the building that there was going to be a line for the 40 foot horizontal roof that went out over the entire gym. And there were going to be Cub Scouts clapping for whoever it was that was being lowered off the end of it. Every single weekend. So it's a benefit that you get to show off, but maybe check your ego and try to improve at climbing instead of just playing for the crowd.

Nate Drolet  52:06

So yeah, crowds, like you know, if you're busy, try and avoid them. Climb on older sets. Like we talked about boards and spray walls, both can be great. I gotta say, like, the Moon board at Momentum? Didn't matter, there could be 600 people in the gym, there'd be two people on that Moon board.

Kris Hampton  52:23

And you know, one of the, one of the negatives of a training area that we'll talk about later on in this podcast is that it's a little bit intimidating sometimes to walk in there. But that can also be a big positive when it's a crowded day at the gym.

Nate Drolet  52:37

Oh, yeah, yeah, well, I'll play it up. I'm wearing all black over in the corner, hood up. It doesn't matter if it's 98 degrees outside. I got my hood up. I mean, I'm just mean muggin' people

Kris Hampton  52:48

Got temporary face tattoos that I put on. 

Nate Drolet  52:50

Exactly. "Does that guy Moon boarding have the same Mike Tyson tribal tattoo on his eye?" Yeah, exactly. Like, "These are MY LEDs." But yeah, so, you can avoid them. But I will say there is a way that, you know, other people in these big mega gyms can be helpful. Something that was really tough for me was the fact that, as an outdoor climber, I climb grades worse indoors. 

Kris Hampton  53:20

Same.

Nate Drolet  53:20

Like, especially in more like big gyms that set in these like powerful, more simple styles. Like, I use intermediates. I use a lot of foot moves. Like, that's just not a thing. And man, they're all so strong. Yeah, like one of my favorite stories. So I got a buddy that I climb with, who I also train now, back in Houston, who has climbed outside a bunch and really takes it seriously. And he's climbed up to V12 outside and is a good climber. But like me, maybe doesn't show it that much in the gym. Like you see him, you're like, oh, he's just kind of like average strong, strong guy in the gym. So one day we're climbing and this a guy comes up who's real strong. Very gym strong. And like he just, he looks over at my buddy Brian, and he's just like, you know, "How hard do you climb?" Brian's just like, "I've climbed V12 outside." And the guy pauses, looks him up and down, and he's like, "I don't see it. I don't see it." So every time I see Brian, just like anytime, like we went on a trip to Hueco together and he like fell off, you know, the warm up, like slipped off the warm up or something, and I just looked at him, I was like, "I don't see it."

Kris Hampton  54:37

Man, you just, you just named my next Proven Plan: Gym Strong. This one's for the bros.

Nate Drolet  54:44

But man, they're like... initially it was, it's actually kind of hard to climb around for my ego because everyone is so physically strong. Yeah, like just in this raw simple power style. But you know what? Like, eventually, I leaned into it. And I was like, "Hey, I'm going to try and climb around these people more," because it's the style I was bad at. And I can honestly say like, after two years, like, I feel like that has become... it's maybe not my, I wouldn't call it my greatest strength, but it is no longer a weakness.

Kris Hampton  55:14

Yeah, super important, I think to just at least occasionally embrace those crowds and, and even the team kids, you know. Watch some nine-year-olds flash your project.

Kris Hampton  55:23

I there's some really good kid climbers. It's cool to see. 

Kris Hampton  55:26

It's good for your ego, honestly. 

Nate Drolet  55:28

Yeah. Yeah. It is rad seeing how good youth climbers are like, that's really cool.

Kris Hampton  55:34

Yep. Alright, let's, let's take a break.

Kris Hampton  55:39

Are you searching for a training structure that actually works? For over a decade, we've helped climbers prepare for their goals. We've seen patterns emerge showing what's most effective for each level of climber. Those patterns became our Proven Plans, a training system that you can follow from complete beginner to V double digits. Delivered through our mobile app, with workouts geared toward your goals and focused on improving not only strength and power, but tactics and mindset, as well. Each Proven Plan comes with a built-in group chat and an option to work directly with one of our coaches. We don't believe in a one-size-fits-all approach to climbing. You shouldn't either. 

Kris Hampton  56:18

Alright, we have returned. We're talking about how to survive in the modern mega climbing gym. Next up on the list is a training area. Number one, I think it's amazing that training areas have popped up and are so prevalent in these climbing gyms. It was a struggle to get a training area in gyms that I grew up in. You know, there would be like one hangboard and maybe a campus board. 

Nate Drolet  56:50

And a member bought that hangboard. 

Kris Hampton  56:52

Yeah, absolutely. And, and built the stand that it was on. There were very rarely weights in the gym. Very rarely. You never saw a barbell. There was certainly not a barbell in gyms back then.

Nate Drolet  57:09

I couldn't honestly tell you the first time I saw a barbell in a climbing gym, it honestly wasn't that long ago. 

Kris Hampton  57:15

Yeah, absolutely. 

Nate Drolet  57:16

Maybe in the last 5... 5-6 years?

Kris Hampton  57:20

Absolutely. Training has exploded in the last five or six years, and it's just taken for granted now that your gym's going to have a training area. And I think there's some pros and cons to these training areas. Number one: I think there are just too many options in a lot of these training areas, you know.

Nate Drolet  57:41

Too damn nice.

Kris Hampton  57:42

It's too damn nice, too many options, too many gimmicks. Tough for people to know what to do. You know, I'm a big fan of minimalizing and not giving a million options, just give the options that actually make sense for the largest crosssection of people. So, and you, you went to and climbed in a gym that had one of the largest training areas I have ever seen. 

Nate Drolet  58:08

It was beautiful. Honestly, like I miss it. Like it was so nice. I mean, I feel like if Rogue, the company Rogue, made anything, they had, like at least two of it. Yeah, it was insane. It was. But yeah, it was overwhelming. There was a lot of stuff and there were a lot of people. So there were a couple of ways you kind of had to work around it. Like to me, one was figuring out what was popular. Generally, benchpress. 

Kris Hampton  58:35

Really? At the climbing gyms?

Nate Drolet  58:37

Oh man, yeah. 

Kris Hampton  58:38

Cool. I had no idea. 

Nate Drolet  58:40

Bros love their benchpress.

Kris Hampton  58:41

I thought it would just be like a line of 27 people dead-lifting.

Nate Drolet  58:44

There was also, that was the second thing I was gonna say. Dead-lifting was way, like to the point where they had a shocking number of barbells. I mean, maybe a dozen barbells? 

Kris Hampton  58:55

Wow.

Nate Drolet  58:56

Four types, too. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  58:58

Really? 

Nate Drolet  58:58

Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I know. Once, like it's funny... 

Kris Hampton  59:02

Part of me loves it. Part of me is like, "Come on, man."

Nate Drolet  59:05

I had a some hip tendinitis. And, I think two years ago, and I worked with a physical therapist from Barbell Medicine. And he was like, "Okay, well, you know, your climbing gym, what kind of equipment you got?" And I like, took some photos. I took some photos and sent them to him, mostly as a joke, without saying anything, because I was like, "He's gonna lose his mind." And he was he was like, I might... He's like, "I would train here."

Kris Hampton  59:31

Yeah. "How much is a membership to your climbing gym?"

Nate Drolet  59:33

Yeah, this is a guy who like overhead strip presses like 200 pounds, and he's like, "I would train at your climbing gym." Like, I was like, yeah, it's, it's dumb. We have like quadruples of every kettlebell up to like 90 pounds. But things get busy. Deadlifting: super, super popular. Squat racks are typically pretty filled. A lot of bench pressing. A lot of cardio machines. More than anything, to me, the biggest thing was finding what wasn't going to be busy and then kind of planning my schedule around that. Which it can be helpful to just understand alternatives. Like because there were times where I was like, hey, I'm gonna deadlift this phase, like just standard conventional deadlift. Man, I would, I might work late, be a little bit busy, I might not get in till like 7pm, I get there. It's like, oh, cool, every barbell is taken. Like, I'm gonna use a Saxon bar or something. They didn't have a Saxon bar, but that would have been taken for sure. That would have been kind of cool.

Kris Hampton  1:00:31

Absolutely that would have been taken, there'd have been a line for the Saxon bar for sure. But if you do understand, you know, either double kettlebell deadlifts or swings or, you know, something else that you can do in place of it. I think that's really smart. So some some self-education, really good way to go.

Nate Drolet  1:00:50

Totally. Understanding variations, understanding different equipment. And fortunately, like, having worked as a strength coach in the past, I got, I was very comfortable alternating different modalities. And plus, it's fun. And that's for me, that's one of my notes is, I think, when you have a million options, go ahead and just pick like two or three tools. And say, hey, I'm going to use this for the next like three months. 

Kris Hampton  1:01:16

Yep, keep it simple. 

Nate Drolet  1:01:18

So I'll be like, "Hey, I'm going to do kettlebells and rings," one of my favorite combos. Like, "I'm just gonna do kettlebells and rings," because then I'm not going to get bogged down with, "Well, there's also the barbell, there is all these other calisthenic things I can do, there are dumbbells."

Kris Hampton  1:01:32

There's all these quarter pound plates I could be putting on. 

Nate Drolet  1:01:35

There are so many quarter pound plates I could be putting on. And so I would just like play around, or sometimes I'd be like, I'm just gonna do calisthenics and dumbbells. Like, and I would do that for like two months. And I mean, like, honestly, you can get strong doing whatever.

Kris Hampton  1:01:48

Yeah, lots of people have. I don't care what the the internet trainers all say. You don't have to be doing huge compound lifts all of the time in order to get strong. Yeah, lots of people get really strong off bodyweight exercises so, yeah.

Nate Drolet  1:02:05

Yeah. So I think that can be really helpful, is pick a few tools, kind of dive into them, have fun, and like, have that be your focus. You know, a lot of the little gyms I've trained at, or home walls, are so limited. It's like, okay, they have two kettlebells, three dumbbells, not sizes, dumbbells. Like, "Oh, you've got the, you're using THE 15? Okay, cool. I'll wait." Like, or I'll try with the 40 because that's the next jump we've got. You know, there's, there's like a 10, a 15, and a 40 dumbbell, or I don't know. Yeah. But in those facilities, I almost never heard people complain about what was there, it was like you just made do. But suddenly, like, the more equipment you have, the more it's like, kind of the paralysis by analysis of just like, oh, there's so many things. Or like, you know, "They've got four different Rogue barbells, like, well, but you know, it'd be nice if they had more of them with knurling in the middle for my single arm deadlifts."

Kris Hampton  1:03:05

Right, right. 

Nate Drolet  1:03:06

That was actually me making that complaint, but... 

Kris Hampton  1:03:08

Well, gotta complain about something. I think keeping it simple is the way to go there. You know, especially with strength training. Like we mentioned before the break, walking into a training area, when there are a bunch of people in there really focused, everybody's got headphones on, they're all training, it can be really intimidating. You know, boards are relatively small. So if there's already two people at the board, it's like, "I don't know if I can join in on that session, you know. Who takes over the app? How's this gonna go?"

Nate Drolet  1:03:40

"That Mike Tyson dude's mean-muggin' me."

Kris Hampton  1:03:42

Yeah, that dude with the face tats. He certainly wants to climb by himself. But I don't think it needs to be. And, and I want to be careful when I'm saying this, but I certainly think there is, there can be a group of people who are like, they're purposely making it a little intimidating, you know, they're... And maybe they are dicks. That's absolutely a thing at the climbing gym. However, it's, most of the time, it's not like that. And, and we have to look at our own selves. And try to get through the intimidation factor. You know, a lot of that is you, it's you being intimidated. The place is not necessarily intimidating. So work to get over that. And then if there is somebody in there being a dick, you know, it's not you that's imagining this shit, you know. But I do think that's one thing I hear a lot of that, that I don't think is true. I hear it like about the Motherlode at the Red, "It's so intimidating there." Oh, I'm like, man. It's a much nicer place to climb than like the 5.12 crag, because those people have the giant fucking egos, you know? So give it a try, lean into it. Certainly could be a problematic atmosphere, climbing is not immune to that, but make sure you're checking yourself first.

Nate Drolet  1:05:17

Absolutely. You know, and I joke around about mean-mugging and fake face tats, but realistically, like, man, the training areas are always, like, people are serious, you know, they may have headphones on, they're maybe writing down numbers, and they're, like, zeroed in. But man, a lot of my favorite conversations I ever had in that gym were like under the hangboard. You know, and I never had an issue with anyone working in. And you know, if there is, if you do run into someone who's a dick, the cool thing is, they're probably the only one and everyone else thinks it, too. So you now have a connection point with everyone else who's like, "Man, ain't that guy a dick?"

Kris Hampton  1:05:50

"What's that guy's problem?"

Nate Drolet  1:05:51

Yeah. And they're like, "Right? He sucks!" And you're like, "Yeah. I'm Nate." Like, there you go. You're in. Like, but I agree, they can be intimidating. But, you know, I mean, I've never, like I've never been bothered by someone coming up and like chatting with me. If I'm busy, I'll be like, "Hey, like, I'll still communicate with you, but I'm working through my reps. So, you know, as long as it doesn't bother you that I'm like, gonna pause for 10 seconds at a time as I do hangs or do these swings, word. We're here, let's hang out."

Kris Hampton  1:06:25

Yep. Do you have any strategies... and maybe, how does it work? Because I haven't spent any time in a commercial gym regularly going to boards. How does the like, who controls the app work? Or getting into a session where there's already three people on the Moon board? What's that look like?

Nate Drolet  1:06:47

Oh, it can be different. Normally, I'm always like, I feel like it's always that thing where you're like, "Oh, no, no, no – you take the app, you take the app!" But then when someone's like, doesn't offer, like, even if you were gonna say no, you're like, "Well, you could've offered." But I don't know, I've never really had a big issue. Like, I've got a good enough memory. And typically, I'll talk with people, like, if I'm circuiting, like, if I'm going through a bunch of boulders, like, I'll be like, "Hey, here's what I'm doing. I'm circuiting." A lot of times people will come back and they're like, "Oh, I just wanted to get away from a crowd. Like, can I circuit with you?" I'm like, "Yeah, let's go." Or sometimes if people are like projecting something, and I'm circuiting, I've had people be like, "Hey, I'm trying the same boulder for the next 30 minutes. It's four holds. You want to use it? Because I see you having to memorize all these boulders." But otherwise, like, that's, no, I don't think it's too big of a deal. Like if you're, if you're familiar with whatever the board is, it's easy enough. The Tension board app is really nice because it has the auto logout. So like, you can set it to where after five seconds of you selecting yours, someone else can connect. So you climb yours, and then they immediately can just like hit the button and it lights up theirs. That's ideal. Moon, get on this.

Kris Hampton  1:08:02

Yeah, I know, there are some folks who have, you know, some issues with jumping into those kinds of sessions. So I think communication goes a really long way. And it's a great way to learn the communication at the crag, too, you know? When you roll up to a boulder and there are already 12 people there sessioning the boulder, it can be a little stressful to try to figure out how to cycle in with that crew. Or there's a queue under your sport route or whatever.

Nate Drolet  1:08:29

Yeah, you know, but if you walk up, like, I go up to a boulder outdoors, and there's a bunch of people working on it, you know, I'll be like, "Hey, y'all want some extra pads?" Next thing I do, I pull out my brush. I start brushing holds. Like, man. They're already like, "Hey, it's one of us. We're good." 

Kris Hampton  1:08:44

Yep, exactly. Alright. Next up, one of the things that is heard really often, I hear the most complaints about this in the modern mega gym era, frankly, and that's the setting style. 

Nate Drolet  1:09:05

"Too compy." 

Kris Hampton  1:09:06

"Too compy, too many big holds," which we've already talked about, but you know, a lot of people are making the case – and, and in some cases it's a valid argument – that it's not really the same style that you're climbing outside. "You don't find these kinds of boulders outside." And I think the setting nowadays is much, much, much, much better. I think it's a better environment for the setters. I think it's better for the gyms. I think it's better for climbers in general. But there are, there are also still plenty of lazy setters out there. So I'm not, I'm not high-fiving every setter out there – you know who you are, if you're just fucking lazy. It definitely still happens, where the only way of making something more difficult is putting the holds further apart, making a hold worse, you know, there's no creativity to it. But I'd say by and large, setters are good. They think about these things. They've put a lot of thought in, they've been educated about how to make boulders or how to make routes. And I think really, what's happening is that they're moving away from outdoor styles that we understand or that we can readily identify. Because honestly, most of these gyms I've been to, that set with some comp styles, I can absolutely tie this to something I would use outdoors. 

Nate Drolet  1:10:31

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's, you know, people also say, "Oh, well, you're just gonna get injured because there's like big shoulder moves." Y'all, I don't know if you've gone outside, but you use your shoulders there, too. There's this thing that we all do, and I think it's really fascinating, and I'd love to, I would love to survey people, like a large group of people. Whenever you think about climbing, because people will say, "Oh, you know, hard climbing is all about the posterior chain. You never use the front of your body." Or they're like, well... I was telling you yesterday, when I started climbing, someone was like, "Well, you know, outdoor rock climbing is just crimps. Pinches don't exist outdoors." And we all have these mental models we create, like, what is... when you think about, "Okay, I want to train. What muscles do I train? What kind of things should I do?" What is the thing you think of? Like, there was a time where, to me, it was like, "Oh, it's a 45 and a crimp ladder." Like that was what, I was like, "That's rock climbing." And it's funny, because I had climbed outside plenty, but my default mental model was that. Like, I didn't think, "Oh, I do these weird moves where I ball up, get into a bicycle, but my right arm is fully extended, and like an Iron Cross. And then I, you know, like trust fall backwards into an undercling." 

Kris Hampton  1:11:47

Yeah, or, "I'm just bumping my hand six inches, but it took me 17 seconds to get in position to do that."

Nate Drolet  1:11:55

Yes. That's not, that was not my default mental model. And it's still not my default mental model. And you shouldn't have one, like, you should have many, many ones that you go through. But I do think we all have a few that we like to latch to. And that's where I believe a lot of complaints against indoor setting comes from is like, "Oh, well, that's competition climbing. It's not like outdoors." And, you know, "that's just injury prone." Like, one of my favorites is that these aren't like, "These moves aren't like biomechanical," or, you know,

Kris Hampton  1:12:32

"Biomechanically advantageous." They put you in an inadvantageous position.

Nate Drolet  1:12:37

Exactly. They're like, "Well, you know, it doesn't go with how your body should go, in the right position."

Kris Hampton  1:12:41

How your shoulder "is supposed to be" when you do this move. I was just looking at a paper. That's the next one Paul and I are going to do for Breaking Beta, by the time you hear this episode, we'll have done it already. So check it, check out Breaking Beta, season two, episode two. And they very clearly say, "This is the correct shoulder position. Everything else is incorrect." I'm like, "Wow. So I got one rock climb I can do." 

Nate Drolet  1:13:08

Yeah. And that's just it. Like, humans don't make outdoor rock climbs, right? Like, we, and that's what's really cool about it. Like, it's, you know, it's just this structure. And it's how do I conform myself to this structure, but a lot of us want these structures to be conformed to us. And a lot of like, good, or just fun routesetting, like, it does conform to us, like, "Ooh, this fits where I want it," like, "I hit this hold and it's just enough of a side pull that my wrist is in a beautiful neutral position, as comfortable as it will ever be," you know, all these things. And that is fun to us. But you know, you talked about lazy setting, like, I think any route setter who's been in the game for two years can set fun, simple flowy climbing, because it's not hard. But to be able to push the barriers of "I want to challenge you as a climber. I want to challenge myself as a setter to see what's possible. I want to prepare you for things you're going to experience in the future." Like, that takes work. And that's not comfortable. It's not this beautiful, flowy comfy thing. It can be fun. And it can be cool. And it can challenge you in the right ways. But it's not, it's not whatever like we all default to – just wanting fun, comfy flowy stuff.

Kris Hampton  1:14:23

Yeah, and I like you're, you're talking about these mental models that we have. I've seen an article in, I think Gripped magazine, where they talked about: spray walls and boards shouldn't have kickers because rock doesn't break except for in parallel planes. So no outdoor boulders have kickers. 

Nate Drolet  1:14:48

Amazing. 

Kris Hampton  1:14:49

Okay? Rock in Wyoming and Texas and Chattanooga, and...

Nate Drolet  1:14:55

The rocks I saw in Utah, just now. 

Kris Hampton  1:14:57

...Virginia, and Utah. That's all different. Because I've seen kickers on outdoor boulders a million times. And, but that's the mental model of that author, is that rock somehow is created in perfect 45 degree angles all the time. And that's not, that's not reality. You know I had a conversation with John Sherman in Hueco Tanks, and, I brought this up on the podcast before but, he said when they were first developing Hueco Tanks they they walked past every one of the compression boulders, all of these famous boulders that are there now, they walked right past them and thought, "There's no boulders there, there are no holds." 

Nate Drolet  1:15:39

There are no holds. 

Kris Hampton  1:15:39

"Not in the way we understand them. You know, we don't understand the way to fit your body around these features and make it climbable." And it's certainly possible that these things that are up on gym walls now that we don't recognize as outdoor boulders, are just because we've never encountered these things indoors either. They're new movements to us. And maybe once we get better versed in these things, we'll start to see them outside, these affordances will start to appear for us that we didn't recognize before, you know, same as we see in a lot of new videos of old boulders outside where kids are double dynoing and paddle dynoing from holds, one hold to another, and making it look way easier than keeping the tension the way that we always did.

Nate Drolet  1:16:33

Yeah. You know, cool example: John Cardwell. Pro climber who is, I would say, I mean, our generation's old-school climber in the sense that he's been climbing since he was little, like, probably since maybe close to the 90s. He was a little tired at that point. But he's trying Esperanto right now. And he couldn't consistently do the span move from the ground. He's inverting and throwing a toe hook into the finish jug and walking his hands up from there. Amazing, super cool. 

Kris Hampton  1:17:06

New school beta.

Nate Drolet  1:17:08

New school beta on a very old school climb that a lot of people have done. And he's like, I wouldn't even call him a new school climber. It's not like he's some, you know, 16 year old who inverts all the time, right? But he took this new school and he was like, "Oh, like this thing that maybe I thought was impossible because of my wingspan before. There's a way."

Kris Hampton  1:17:27

Yeah, I love these comp style boulders and comp style setting. It's one of the first places I go when I walk into a modern mega gym. At first, I do the like compression slopey boulders that make me look really good. And then I go to these comp style boulders because they're, they're opening me up to new moves I've never experienced, they make me think in a different way. They make me organize my body in a different way. And that stuff's just going to carry over to opening up new, new beta possibilities on boulders that you find really difficult. It's going to allow me to see different boulders when I'm out looking at new things and I'm like, "Well, that's clearly not a boulder, that can't be climbed. Oh, but what if I were to invert? You know, what if I were to be able to paddle dyno? Would this work?" You know, I, I just think the the old guard who views the 45 degree crimp ladder as the mental model of climbing is missing the boat entirely.

Nate Drolet  1:18:29

Yeah. You know, and it's, it is funny too, because I remember when I started climbing, what was considered comp climbing then, is now what people consider outdoor climbing. Because it was like big jumping moves like, but between like, decent holds and it wasn't paddling. Like they think they're like, "Oh, that's like, outdoor power style." But back then when everything was set as a spray wall, whenever you would have a comp, it was like these big jumping moves between like beefy holds that was like, "Eh, comp style."

Kris Hampton  1:18:56

Yeah, exactly. The climbing was supposed to be a line of crimps up a 45 degree wall that only one person in this group could hold on to, you know. And I think, you know, we make the argument with this comp style stuff, you know, "Well, the reason they have to go to that is because all the climbers are so strong, and anybody could hold on to these crimps now." And I think that's probably true. But they're also, like I said, opening up entirely new movements to us. And I think that's way more important than it's being given credit for. So if you're in these gyms and they, you know, they have this style that you don't like that you're like, "I'm never going to use this outside." Even if you don't use that exact style, it's still teaching you some things about how you organize your body, how you view beta, what the possibilities might be. Spend some time on those things, doesn't have to be all of your time, but maybe don't just thumbs down your gym because that's a lot of the setting. And honestly, I think a lot of these big macro holds are just like climbing outside, except for climbing outside isn't, you know, a big pink hold where you only use, you know, a tiny percentage of the hold. It's a giant boulder where you only use the tiny, tiny percentage of the boulder.

Nate Drolet  1:20:18

Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I'm not saying that this setting style is perfect in that it's the only, like, it's, I don't think it's actually fitting everything we need for climbing outside. In fact, I want it to be a little more fucked up. Like, outdoor climbing is weird. And unfortunately, a lot of people don't like weird. Like, you know, I wrote a blog couple years ago, it was something like "Outdoor Classics Would Make Terrible Gym Climbs." And it's true, like, so many amazing or just like, so many boulders outside that are wonderful challenges where you're like, "This is so unique and so cool." They have sharp holds, and they're like, the holds are facing the really wrong way. And you're applying a ton of pressure with your feet to like an uncomfortable degree, it's hard for all the wrong reasons. And no one would climb those in the gym. I want 'em. Like I would love if they were there. And I would love for route setting to like, incorporate more of that. And some places do. But it's like I get why you wouldn't, because people would just be like, "This is trash."

Kris Hampton  1:21:21

Yeah, and if you can't get over yourself, and you know, you're, you're just going to complain every time you go in the gym because of the setting, you've got the boards. Your gym, your modern mega gym, probably has a training area that has all the boards. And, you know, they've been put together specifically by people who are training for outdoor rock climbing, and they're trying to make it more like outdoor rock climbing. So by all means, go and climb on those things. I think they're a really valuable tool. You know, but maybe as you get older, you'll check yourself. Maybe as you get older, you're just gonna go deeper into the grumpy rabbit hole that you're in.

Nate Drolet  1:22:04

You know, one last thing I'll say about route setting and something that I've benefited from a lot was: I used to, from climbing outside... like, indoors there are a lot more shoulder moves and you can find a lot more of these aggressive moves in that style, like big wide moves, jumping moves. And for me, like I hadn't done nearly as much outside and a lot of that is my style. I love keeping my feet on. Like that is something that, it's probably because I got good at it. And so I just did it more and I found ways to keep my feet on even for jump moves. But when I first went to the gym in Houston, and every now and then I'd find these boulders where I'm like, This is just heinous." And they all were set by the same person. And what I ended up doing at one point, I was like, "Well, like I can't do these boulders, even like V7's," I would, it would take me a lot of work or would make my shoulders like kind of grumpy. So I started doing shoulder mobility work, like weighted mobility work. So I'd do like kettlebell pullovers, I would do inverted Iron Cross work with dumbbells, like I was doing all these things to make my shoulders stronger. And I sought out this one setter, like anytime he put a boulder up and it's funny because now I can just like, I don't have to look at the tags. I know which ones are his. But it, yeah, I like sought out his stuff. And I would always just, first thing, priority was to climb his stuff.

Kris Hampton  1:23:29

Yeah, I love having a setter frenemy. 

Nate Drolet  1:23:32

Oh, it was. 

Kris Hampton  1:23:33

You know, your Lex Luthor, that you know is going to set something that you absolutely hate/love. I think that's amazing.

Nate Drolet  1:23:43

Yeah. And, you know, a turning point for me was, one day I had walked in and they were routesetting or they were forerunning, and I watched him climb on his boulders. And I was like, "God dammit. These aren't, these aren't like, these aren't just heinous and weird." It's like, because watching him, he's wildly strong through his upper body and like, you know, he just looked like a piece of steel when he would like hit these gastons. And I was like, "That'd be nice. I'd like some of that for myself. You know, maybe I should work towards this." 

Kris Hampton  1:24:13

Here's how you get it. 

Nate Drolet  1:24:14

Yeah exactly, he'd laid out a roadmap.

Kris Hampton  1:24:17

Good news: we've laid it out for you. 

Nate Drolet  1:24:19

And it's funny because man, we'd be, I'd be climbing in there and all the time people would be like, "Oh, you know, this person's boulder? Like they're always so shouldery and powerful," and I was like, "Yep, you should do it." Like, so, yeah, if you like, find yourself a setter frenemy...

Kris Hampton  1:24:37

Absolutely, that's one of the best things you can have. 

Nate Drolet  1:24:40

Maybe go to the comment box and be like, "Hey, send me some more of those Iron Crosses, like I love those Iron Cross footless boulders you're setting. Can we get some more of those?" 

Kris Hampton  1:24:49

Yeah, "Hey, arch rival."

Nate Drolet  1:24:51

"Hey, arch rival. More kryptonite, please."

Kris Hampton  1:24:55

Yeah, totally. And if you are in the modern mega gym world, specifically in Salt Lake City, and looking for somebody to help guide you through the modern mega climbing gym, Nate is doing private coaching at the Momentum gyms in Salt Lake, so reach out to him. You can find him at @natedrolet on Instagram. You can also get a hold of him through our website which is powercompanyclimbing.com . You can find us at Power Company Climbing on the Facebook's, the Instagrams, Pinterest, YouTubes, all the places except for the Twitter because: we don't tweet, we scream like eagles.