JStar is one of the best sport climbers in the world, so it took a ton of courage for him to completely overhaul a training routine that took him to 14d (9a), but he did it anyway.  Like many of us, he felt somewhat stuck.  We don't see that from the outside, when the media shows only the successes, but even for the best of the best, it's a reality.  We talk about the how and the why, what he learned from it, and where he's going from here.  

You can find Jonathan at Jstarinorbit.com, where he keeps what is likely the best blog in all of climbing.  Definitely go check out his recent posts about "Pachamama," a 15a that after eight weeks of effort, he had to walk away from.  He talks about his struggles in a very real, relatable way that I find refreshing.  

Also not to miss is his post about sending the "Direct Dunn Westbay" (5.14) on the Diamond on Long's Peak.  He went up the day after our conversation, and his write up is, in my opinion, one of the best accounts of climbing ever written.  You can find that post HERE. 

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FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Kris Hampton  00:31

What's up everybody? I'm your host Kris Hampton. Welcome to Episode 30 of The Power Company Podcast brought to you by powercompanyclimbing.com. Our time in Hueco is almost up, which is a little bit bittersweet because it's been amazing here and and I'm really learning to love it. And but my body needs a break. You know, I'm not as young as I once was and bouldering for months and months on end is hard. It's starting to tear me up a little bit. So definitely need a break need to reset and get back into some some training. From here, I head to see a few friends and hang out with some folks. And then I go to St. Louis to emcee the So iLL Showdown, which is, in my opinion comp of the year. So if you happen to be around St. Louis, the end of March, I believe it's March 23rd, 24th, 25th. Somewhere around there. Definitely stop through the So iLL Showdown and say hello. And then Nate and I are sticking around St. Louis for the week following to do a week's worth of workshops. We're going to do a sport climbing workshop, a bouldering workshop. Hang out with us. You can just come and boulder with us. And also we're going to do our very first live Power Company Podcast, right there at the So iLL gym. So if you're in St. Louis, please come and see us. If you're interested in doing private sessions, we're going to be around all week. So hit us up and and we can hang out with you in the gym. And speaking of sessions and working with people, Nate has a few openings in his custom plans. These are rare. He's got some people out on trips who aren't training right now. So definitely hit him up via the website powercompanyclimbing.com if you're interested in getting in on a custom plan. They're normally sold out. So now's the time. Today, well, first off, you know what, let me tell you guys, this, you're all waiting on the Moon Board episode. It's coming, I promise you. We've got something really exciting that won't happen, I won't be able to get it, until next week. And next week will is when the final piece of this Moon Board episode will come together. So you guys will have it shortly thereafter. It is priority number one, once I have the final piece in place. So it's coming, don't worry. But today I sit down with Jonathan Siegrist. Actually, I don't sit down with him today. That's a total lie. Here I am lying to you guys. I sat down with him last summer in Estes Park. And we talked about what it takes, what kind of shift you have to make mentally and how you have to let go of your ego to make changes when what you've been doing is working. And I think that's something we all go through at some point. So I am gonna let J Star, Jonathan Siegrist take it over from here. 

Jonathan Siegrist  03:27

That's what this is all about, right? This is like, you kind of come to the end of the road. And you have to have the foresight to say, I'm gonna try something a little bit different.

Kris Hampton  03:39

 So really, what I want to talk to you about is, you know, you were climbing at a really high level to begin with, like before you ever really started focusing on structured training or anything like that. And you had kind of, if I understand correctly, and stop me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you had kind of followed the same way of doing things for a lot of years.

Jonathan Siegrist  04:23

 Yeah, definitely. 

Kris Hampton  04:24

And that got you to to a really high level, you know, you were climbing 14d just doing what you'd been doing. So what I what I'm interested in is what causes you or what allows your ego to be like, okay, we need to change things up. 

Jonathan Siegrist  04:44

Yeah

Kris Hampton  04:44

You know, what's what I've done to get here has been working, but I need to change some things instead of just keep doing what's been working.

Jonathan Siegrist  04:52

Yeah. Um, well, I think that that that's a challenge that a lot of people are gonna have to face. Because the more I hear people talk about training, and I hear people talk about changing their climbing, I think people are just so obsessed with volume. And that was like, the biggest thing for me is I was, all of my training up until that point had been like volume based,

Kris Hampton  05:18

Right, you go out and you do, you know, dozens of hard pitches everyday.

Jonathan Siegrist  05:22

Yeah, I did as much as I could. Yeah. And, and in the gym, I would do the same thing. And then I was running a lot, which is something that I was really motivated by. And I also was convinced, despite hearing from so many people that running was going to help my climbing 

Kris Hampton  05:26

And you are going pretty hard running. 

Jonathan Siegrist  05:41

Yeah, for sure. No, especially like the summer I lived in Lander, I was I'd run in the Winds, like three or four times a week, and it'd be like, at least 10 miles sometimes 15. 

Kris Hampton  05:53

That sounds heinous to me.

Jonathan Siegrist  05:54

I mean, yeah. I mean, I honestly, I really miss it a lot. But, um, but yeah, I heard enough, from enough people that suggested I changed the way I kind of approached my climbing and my training. And it was really hard because I because like you said, I mean, I was coming from a place of like, well, this is working for me. You know, I mean, I mean, I've gotten to where I am, at that point, I had kind of plateaued for, like, probably three and a half years or something. 

Kris Hampton  06:24

Okay. 

Jonathan Siegrist  06:25

I climbed my first 14d in 2010. And that was like a pretty big breakthrough for me in the fall of 2010. And then I probably didn't climb anything harder than that for up until early 2014.

Kris Hampton  06:40

So you were ready for a change.

Jonathan Siegrist  06:43

Yeah, I was ready for a change. And, and also, I really wanted to, to, like have another breakthrough in my climbing. And, and yeah, like I said, I definitely had to make myself vulnerable in the sense that I, I was like, this works, you know, it's really hard to like, let go of these patterns that we create.

Kris Hampton  07:02

For sure.

Jonathan Siegrist  07:03

 And to be like, and to hear, you know, someone tell you that kind of everything you're doing is wrong. And you know, certainly not everything I obviously, it worked for

Jonathan Siegrist  07:12

Yeah. But I kind of it felt like a risk for sure. And when I first talked with, when I first spoke with Mark Anderson, he just again and again and again tried to assure me that it would work and that it wasn't a risk and and but regardless, it felt that way. And for the first month or month and a half of kind of changing things. I was really skeptical, ya know? And really like ughh....

Kris Hampton  07:13

Yeah it got you there.

Jonathan Siegrist  07:13

Yeah, after every session, you're like, this shit isn't work.

Jonathan Siegrist  07:45

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and it's just hard because especially with the whole volume thing. I was under the impression I think a lot of people are too, still that you just, you know, if you're not leaving the gym, completely exhausted or leaving the crag completely exhausted, that you're not, you know, you're not having any, right, you're not getting a workout. And that and certainly for the first little while I was, you know, a lot of days, I'd leave the gym and be like, I could go for another, you know, six hours or something, you know, but I guess I'll just stop now. And, and you know, I'd love, a rest day comes around, oh, I'd love to do a 16 mile run with my dog. But instead I'm gonna sit here, you know, and that was really hard for me.

Kris Hampton  08:30

Yeah, I bet that was tough for you. Because I remember having Thanksgiving dinner with you at Miguel's years ago. You and Angie Payne, we're having this conversation about rest days. 

Jonathan Siegrist  08:41

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  08:41

And at the time, you hadn't taken more than like, two rest days in a row or two or three rest days in a row in years and yeah. 

Jonathan Siegrist  08:49

In years. Yeah totally. Yeah. And, you know, I think it was, it was based on a couple different things. One was that I was like obsessed. And I and I really felt like the volume was helping me. And second, it was also like, I do think that early, especially early on, and you're climbing, I started climbing when I was 18. So I mean, for the first, you know, six, seven, even eight years, it's true that if I took a week off, like I would climb differently. And I think that for most people, that's true, you know, and now, it's different. I've been climbing for 12 years, and I feel like I could take, you know, three days off is like not a problem at all. Like it's only helpful. A week off, maybe there's like one day where I feel a little like awkward. 

Kris Hampton  09:40

Like you have to get back into it.

Jonathan Siegrist  09:41

But then its totally back to normal, which is something that you kind of have to earn you know. And and so it was partly driven by that by that that like authentic feeling of being like, oh, I don't climb as well as I did a week ago or whatever. But also it was just me, I had that I had this strong impression that you know, climbing was an endurance activity, and I should just get just climb until I was exhausted or run until I was exhausted every day.

Kris Hampton  10:06

Right. And during, you know, during the initial years of your climbing, that volume is probably the right thing to do. 

Jonathan Siegrist  10:12

Exactly. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  10:13

 You know, you're learning a lot.

Jonathan Siegrist  10:16

 Totally. And I think it's like, just getting the hours of experience under your belt. You know, at the elite level climbing is really strength based, but in the beginning stage and the middle stage and even the high level stage. Like it's a lot of skill acquisition. And I think, you know, a mistake that a lot of people make nowadays is, I mean, people come, I've had people come to the strength training seminars I've given or asked me directly, you know, I'm a 10d climber and I really want to break into 11a. Can you suggest some hangboard routines for me? And I'm like

Kris Hampton  10:55

No, go rock climbing.

Jonathan Siegrist  10:56

 Go rock climbing, go climbing as much as you can. And I and I, you know, I asked them a little more about like, are you challenging yourself when you're in the gym? You know, how many days a week? Are you going climbing? And when I hear oh, not really, I kind of just play around in the gym and I climb one day a week. I'm like, that's the reason why you're not improving. It's not because you need to buy some book or like change your diet or anything. Like, no, I'm a pretty strong believer that you should just climb and try and challenge yourself and climb on different rock types and go outside as much as you can until you're even a mid 5.13 level climber in my opinion.

Kris Hampton  11:32

Yeah, I would say I would agree with that to a point, I think, I think different people plateau in different places, you know, and then they need to change things up. But But definitely the majority of what we do here is, you know, just structuring people's sessions, so that they're not just going into the gym and playing around. It's 90% rock climbing. 

Jonathan Siegrist  11:55

Totally. Yeah. And, and I think that that's great. And I do think that, like we've just talked, I mean, to, you don't have to be training to improve at your climbing, you know. I mean, when you're really nearing your personal capabilities, I do think that you have to eliminate all variables possible and train in a really, really smart way if you want to improve. Period. But for many, many years, it I think it really benefits people, like you said, just to have structure. Just to go into the gym and kind of know a little bit what they're doing. And you can still just be a fun climbing day with all your friends.

Kris Hampton  12:32

For sure. 

Jonathan Siegrist  12:33

But, you know, there's, there's so many different ways you can go into the gym and just climb routes or go bouldering for three hours and one way will benefit you a lot better than the other way. 

Kris Hampton  12:44

Yeah. And I've you know, I've heard for years about people saying, I don't want to train you know, I climb because I love climbing. I don't want to go train. But if training can be a really structured, fun session, ya know, it doesn't have to be lifting weights, or hangboarding or doing pull ups or whatever. The majority of people are gonna get more out of just climbing and trying trying interesting, fun things instead of just doing the same old thing every time. 

Jonathan Siegrist  13:10

Totally.

Kris Hampton  13:10

 So I'm curious when, when Mark was first talking to you, first off, did you approach Mark? Or did he approach you and say, here's something you could change in your climbing?

Jonathan Siegrist  13:22

Um, it was a little bit of both. So I was, at the time, it was 2013 and during the whole summer, I lived in Lander, which was awesome. And I dearly miss that place. But I was climbing a lot with BJ and with yourself and anyone that was around, the whole 307 crew and I had a good summer. Um, I climbed a lot of great stuff. I was doing a lot of bolting at Wolf Point at the time. And I ran into Mike Anderson, one day when I was climbing at the Erratic. I was trying Moonshine. And Mike was there and he was trying Ghost Moon or something. I can't remember exactly what it was. But he was totally kicking ass. And I had in the back of my head that I wanted to go to France the next year. And I really wanted to go to Ceuse and I wanted to try hard and all these things. And I knew that I was going to have a structured training period during the winter. And basically, Mike happened to be there. He took some pictures of me on on Moonshine, and he published them in the book. And he also asked me, you know, hey, we, me and my brother and I are writing this book and we'd love it if you could take a look at it. And maybe, you know, give us your two cents for the back page or whatever. 

Kris Hampton  14:35

Yeah, cool.

Jonathan Siegrist  14:36

 And so he sent me a digital copy of the book. And it was like, I read one chapter. And I was like, I called both of them immediately. And I was like, I want you to train me basically. Because it was, it was what I needed. It was like scientific and it was, like, more like engineering or something and less like, kind of

Kris Hampton  15:03

The same thing you were doing? 

Jonathan Siegrist  15:03

Yeah, yeah. And for me, like, as a, like my character, I needed that, to feel like I could kind of give up everything I had done. I wanted something that felt like it was proven, you know, and it felt like really well structured,

Kris Hampton  15:17

Less risk.

Jonathan Siegrist  15:18

 Exactly.

Kris Hampton  15:18

That's what you're looking for. 

Jonathan Siegrist  15:19

Exactly, yeah. And so then, you know, I basically said, you know, here's your quote, for the back of the book. And by the way, you know, do you could I pay you guys or whatever to help me this winter. And Mark was really gracious, and basically just, like, generous and just was, like, come out to my place, on you know, whenever you can. And we'll, I'll take you through a couple sessions. And you know, I'll kind of help you along and, and whatever. And pretty much since then I still write those both of those guys, when I have questions. Over the years, I really tailored, I've kind of taken I'd say like, what I do is 70 to 80% of like the Rock Prodigy system. And I've changed the last 20 or 30% to kind of accommodate what I feel works best for me personally, but I, but I mean, I still think that by all means those guys are like legends when it comes to training.

Kris Hampton  16:15

Yeah, for sure.

Jonathan Siegrist  16:16

They helped me immensely, if for nothing else than just to be like, hey, you should try this, you know, and having it come from two dudes who I knew only had a few free hours a week to try. And 

Kris Hampton  16:28

They're really dialed into what they're doing.

Jonathan Siegrist  16:30

 Yeah, yeah, 

Kris Hampton  16:31

They have to be.

Jonathan Siegrist  16:32

 Yeah, yeah. So So that's kind of how that all came about.

Kris Hampton  16:36

Cool. So So you didn't have to be convinced necessarily. It was, you had already, you had already internalized the idea that you needed to do something a little bit.

Jonathan Siegrist  16:47

 Yeah, I knew that I wanted to do something different. And I think I had a few ideas of what I would, because the whole time up until then I never had a coach, I never had any kind of, I mean, I had taken tidbits from here and there. But I never was on a climbing team. I never competed. I never had any direction from anyone else. It was just like me kind of figuring things out, totally trial and error myself. And I think basically, I had come to terms with the fact that if I wanted to break through, and if I wanted to change my climbing that I needed help. And I didn't know exactly how that would come. That was just like the idea floating around in my head. And then kind of that day at the Erratic and, and then later seeing, seeing this text was like, Oh, this is clearly it. You know, I'll try this, you know, and I didn't know if that would work or not. But I was like, well, I gotta try something, you know?

Kris Hampton  17:40

Yeah, for sure. And I know you, you eventually I don't know if it happened right away, but you eventually started bouldering more, and you didn't consider yourself a good boulderer at that point 

Jonathan Siegrist  17:53

Not at all.

Kris Hampton  17:54

And, you know, some definitely people can look at it and go, what the hell is he talking about? He didn't consider himself a good boulderer. You know, because you're doing V12s, pretty fast, right off the bat. But for you, you know, in you know, when compared to you are, what you're doing on routes, V12 wasn't what you wanted to be at.

Jonathan Siegrist  18:12

Yeah, yeah. And actually, up until, so last summer was the first time, I started doing more bouldering, definitely in the gym. And because in the end, kind of what I discovered was that through all the years, I mean, before I started climbing, I was racing mountain bikes. So I had a really strong foundation in like cardiovascular fitness, and I knew how to train volume really well. Intervals, all that kind of stuff. 

Kris Hampton  18:37

Right.

Jonathan Siegrist  18:38

 So when I came into climbing, I totally just applied that same, I was like, oh, climbing is you know, I'm thinking like, I'm getting pumped, and I'm breathing hard, it must be an endurance activity. So I pretty much applied all the things that I had learned from mountain biking and, and training in that sense into climbing, which like, like we established worked really well for me for many years. The thing that really changed for me was and and I think having a third party, which is why having a trainer having a coach is so important to have someone other than yourself telling you what you're good and what you're bad at.

Kris Hampton  19:15

Yeah.

Jonathan Siegrist  19:16

Because it's really easy for me to say I'm good at this. I'm bad at this. And I'm most of the time I'm wrong.

Kris Hampton  19:21

Yeah, we always think we're better at something or think we're worse at something totally than we actually are.

Jonathan Siegrist  19:26

And so that was really beneficial to have Mike and Mark. I mean, they went to the extent of like watching all the videos I had been in. They came and climbed with me and then you know watch me during training sessions. And they were like, okay, here's what you suck at, here's what you're good at. And they were like, you know, you're exceptionally good at this and your quite, pretty bad actually, at this and and I knew that already, you know. But it was kind of like, oh man, you know, like hearing it, officially hearing it from somebody. But that's what I needed. You know, and and basically what we came up with is that my power, which still to this day is really lacking, and you know, my stamina was great and, and my strength was generally okay, but it could still be improved. And and the net result was like, don't ever train stamina again. Basically, you know, I have been doing like treadwall sessions, like going to the gym doing 25 laps or whatever every day. And it was basically like, just don't do that.

Kris Hampton  20:23

Yeah, that stuff comes back so fast. 

Jonathan Siegrist  20:25

Yeah. And I and I, and that was the scariest thing for me like talking about vulnerability and whatever. It was just completely letting go of that. And, and I will say right now that since I, since the winter between 2013 and 2014, I have never what I would personally consider I've never trained stamina endurance since then. 

Kris Hampton  20:50

Yep. 

Jonathan Siegrist  20:50

The only thing I've trained is strength and power. And the stamina, I mean, yeah, I get pumped sometimes. And last summer, I took five weeks and didn't tie in once and only bouldered. And when I came back to climbing routes, I was like, depressed for two weeks. I was like, this is the only thing I'm good at. And now I'm bad at that. But it came back around, you know, and it was okay. And for me personally, that was really what I needed. And so yes, to answer your question, like from minutes ago, bouldering became, mostly indoors, but bouldering became a huge element of my training, definitely.

Kris Hampton  21:28

Yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat, albeit at a much lower level than you. I got to 13c by training only endurance and stamina,you know. And then I made the mistake of going, okay, I need to start bouldering. And what I would do is, I would go into the gym and do these long boulder problems that that resembled routes more than they resembled boulders, you know, and, and I'm like, I'm not getting any stronger. You know, but it was my own mistake. 

Jonathan Siegrist  22:00

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  22:00

Did you tend toward that at first? Or did you, did Mike and Mark or did you yourself just force the idea of doing short, hard move, little short sequences? How did you go into bouldering initially?

Jonathan Siegrist  22:16

 Um, yeah, yeah. I mean, I certainly, I think, what I tended towards less than doing longer boulder problems was, again, doing volume with bouldering. 

Kris Hampton  22:30

Oh, yeah. 

Jonathan Siegrist  22:31

So I would go in

Kris Hampton  22:32

 Lots and lots of problems

Jonathan Siegrist  22:33

Yeah, and do a lot of problems. Like for me, maybe, you know, I would have a circuit of, you know, V8s and 9s or something and do like tenof them.

Kris Hampton  22:43

 Right, right.

Jonathan Siegrist  22:44

 Which is not at all what I needed, you know. What I needed was to go in and try something at my limit for an hour and then quit, you know, which that was another really hard part.

Kris Hampton  22:54

It's really hard for people to learn in general.

Jonathan Siegrist  22:56

 Totally.

Kris Hampton  22:57

 It's, it's a, that's a really tough thing to connect with is failing on a move or to over and over and over, and then just quitting before you're, before you've run yourself into the ground.

Jonathan Siegrist  23:08

Totally. But I mean, it brings up in my opinion, one of the golden rules about training is if it's not like, hard, and to some degree uncomfortable, it's it's not going to create any growth. And I think that goes for all things in life in general. I mean, emotional, certainly physical, mental, whatever, you know. And that was me just kind of like, Oh, yeah, I'm bouldering now. I'm training. But I also kind of like, found my comfort zone, you know what I mean? So, so I think inevitably, I think that the the message came full circle for me last summer, when I was living in Estes and I decided, I actually came to climb a route on The Diamond that I was really motivated on, but it ended up being too wet. And so I decided, Well, I have a month of time here, a little more. So I guess I'll try this bouldering thing. And it was like the second or third day I'd ever been to Chaos. I didn't tie in or do anything but climb in Upper and Lower Chaos and and then for a little over a month. And that's when the message came full circle because I was, I set a goal for myself and I started trying boulders that were really hard or hard for me, you know? And then it was like, Oh, you know, I kind of learned like, Okay, try once, rest 10 minutes, try again. You know, maybe I only try this boulder six times, seven times.

Kris Hampton  24:30

Right.

Jonathan Siegrist  24:30

And then I hike out. And that was how I started to like finish boulders as opposed to, and furthermore, I set a goal that was like, like partially numeric well, totally numerical. Like, I wanted to climb a certain number of a certain grade. And in order to do that, it was like, Damn, dude, I you know, I can't you know, I could have easily done three times as many V10s. But I really wanted to do was climb routes that...err...boulders that were really hard for me. So, so that kind of, and I'm really I'm super goal oriented, like, like maybe even to a fault where I kind of can't let go. Like once I emotionally commit to something, it's really hard for me to let go of it. 

Kris Hampton  25:14

Yep.

Jonathan Siegrist  25:14

 And I think that that was the kind of kick in the ass I needed to be like, oh, and kind of really come full circle and really understand the whole power thing. Understand the whole, like, like, limit bouldering thing?

Kris Hampton  25:29

 And did you watch other boulderers? How they structure their sessions out there?

Jonathan Siegrist  25:35

 Totally.

Kris Hampton  25:35

 And, and kind of steal from what they were doing?

Jonathan Siegrist  25:37

Totally. Yeah, I can remember one day I was bouldering with Nick Duttle, who's an outstanding boulderer. And in between tries, he would like lay down. Like lay on the ground and do nothing for six minutes, or whatever. I was like, Huh, that's, that's pretty sick. And, um, and especially coming from a route climbing background, where it's like your either belaying or climbing all day, basically. Maybe you take a break for 45 minutes to eat lunch. But it's like, there's always action. Like if you're not climbing, it's because you're belaying your your buddy. And then when it's your turn, you're going and ameurte, or you're hangdogging on the route forever. So there's kind of like, if you want to boulder really well, I mean, yeah, it's, it's you can't take the same attitude towards it. You really have to be like, Okay, I'm gonna give full effort, and then chill, and then give full effort, and then chill. And I really learned this really well on the Automator, which was the first V13 I ever did. Because I was I learned after the first day of trying that like, if I went too, like, aggressive at the boulder, it's like, for people that don't know, it's like, probably, like, V10ish, to a really hard move right at the finish. And it's, it's a little bit longer. Maybe like 10 or 15, 10 to 12 moves or something like that. And, and yeah, I mean, I just, I learned pretty quickly, like, okay, I can give one really good try. If I rest 10 minutes, I can give another really good try. But I could feel like, if I only rested four minutes, the try was so much worse. If I rested eight minutes, it was you know, and I kind of just like found that sweet spot. And thankfully, I found it pretty early on in my like quest to do these boulders. And so then I just applied that same mentality to all the other boulders I did and it worked. Like it worked really well.

Kris Hampton  27:30

 Yeah, that's really important. I think. I think that people often make the mistake of looking at the grades that everyone else is climbing and not paying attention to the way they structure their day, or, or just the, you know, the mindset they take into it. You know, chances are when you were going out climbing with Nick, he was probably climbing boulders at a higher level than you were first time.

Jonathan Siegrist  27:57

 Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  27:58

So instead of you just throwing yourself at the same problems, you took what he was doing to approach that problem and applied it to your own climb?

Jonathan Siegrist  28:08

Oh, for sure. I mean, I've I've never been the best at anything. And so it's always really helpful to I'm not gonna pretend like I know how to do things better than, then you know, anyone.

Kris Hampton  28:23

Right. And that's what and that's what makes you good at things is because you you're able to watch, take a backseat and then apply that to your own climbing.

Jonathan Siegrist  28:32

Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, especially, you know, the one thing that I'm kind of, like, excited about right now is like, all these different, like, the interdisciplinary climbing thing, you know, um, you know, we're talking about bouldering. And I've, and I've done that, largely, I'm a little more excited on just bouldering now than I was before, but largely, I've done that to improve my route climbing. But I think like, all the different disciplines of climbing, all lend such an incredible insight to the other disciplines of climbing, etc. And so, I guess in that sense, it's like, yeah, damn, right, when I go to Spain, and I climb with Chris Sharma, I'm like, dude, like, the don of American sport climbing. I'm like, gonna watch what he does, you know? 

Kris Hampton  29:27

Yeah. 

Jonathan Siegrist  29:27

When I go out bouldering and, you know, I'm like, looking around the corner and I see Daniel or Ty Landman, or, like, you know, many, many of the other like, exquisite boulderers that live in and around Colorado. I'm like, Dude, what's homeboy doing over there because he like, those bros and girls, for that matter. Plenty of girls in this state. Unlike what you know, I want to learn and likewise, when I go climb on a wall with Tommy, it's like, I'm never trying to give Tommy any tips on how to rock climb. Like take a backseat man like, Okay, this is how you build an anchor. Okay, here's how you go to the death.

Kris Hampton  30:07

Yeah. But in the you know, on the flip side, I'm sure there are times where you're like, where you're, he's treating you like a peer as well, like, what do you think about this beta? Or, you know, what works here? What do you think about this? You know

Jonathan Siegrist  30:21

For sure, yeah, I mean, a great example is like, in 2012, I went with Tommy to Yosemite for six weeks to try the Dawn Wall. And that was like, by all means, he was the teacher and I was the student, you know, and I was just like, trying hard to keep up, you know, the whole time. And I learned immensely from that, and it was so sick. And then in the spring of 2014, we lived together in Ceuse for several weeks, and he ended up climbing 14c, which he hadn't done in like a decade, which was so sick. 

Kris Hampton  30:52

Right. 

Jonathan Siegrist  30:53

You know, and at the time, I was trying Biographie, and it was awesome to have that same exchange, and like a little bit in the other way, you know, and he'd be like, he'd be like, at the end of the day, you know, he'd be like, man, I think it's gonna rain on Sunday. Do you think I should try tomorrow? Or should I rest two days? Or? I'm not that I'm kind of tired? How many tries? Did you know, whatever. And it was like, Oh, cool. You know, we can all just like, kind of powpow together and all just like grow as climbers.

Kris Hampton  31:17

Yeah. And I think climbing is this, like, climbing is a selfish sport. I mean, it just really is you're, you're out there chasing your own goals all the time. And, and it's really easy to get caught in that, and not pay attention to what everyone else is doing. And it's, I feel really fortunate to have gotten to climb around, guys like you and BJ and Daniel. And, you know, I get to climb around some big names. And I use that, I use that time to learn, you know? 

Jonathan Siegrist  31:50

Yeah

Kris Hampton  31:51

 I mean, and there are specific examples. I remember watching you go up a project and the Red, and your first time up it, you just went up with a stick clip. Like there was no, there was no charade of, I'm just gonna do all the moves. First try, you're like, I'm gonna go up, I'm gonna identify holds. I'm going to make this easy on myself. 

Jonathan Siegrist  32:11

Yeah.

Kris Hampton  32:11

You know, do it efficiently. And that was a lightbulb moment for me, like, wow, you can you know, if I'm approaching something really hard, I don't have to just bang my head against it and fall 40 times at the same move. I can just go up, identify what's going on, and then start trying the pieces. And that was huge for me. And I watch it with BJ, you know, I learned a ton from him, just about the mindful approach to climbing and he accepts my beta, which I think is cool. You know, he's, while he was working on this Mutation project, he changed some of his beta based on my beta for the individual pieces.

Jonathan Siegrist  32:50

 Yes

Kris Hampton  32:50

Things he had climbed, you know, hundreds of times. He's like, oh, maybe that foot works better. Let me try it. You know, and I think that's what makes good climbers good. 

Jonathan Siegrist  32:59

Yes.

Kris Hampton  33:00

 They're willing to take the backseat and accept learning. You know, it's not, it's a selfish thing to them, for sure, but they're able to open up and include other people's thoughts into that. So, and I think that's probably the important part of what you did when you shifted to let me just let Mark and Mike, kind of take over and tell me what to do.

Jonathan Siegrist  33:25

Yeah, yeah.

Kris Hampton  33:26

I think that's pretty cool. Has it, have there been moments where what you were doing didn't work? Or you felt you're you got frustrated with what was going on?

Jonathan Siegrist  33:39

Um, for the first year, um, it was just like a just like, a straight upward progression. And it was awesome. And I was in it. It built, I built so much motivation to train. And, I mean, I would feel like stronger every week. it was awesome.

Kris Hampton  33:56

Which is, which is cool, but kind of sets you up for disappointment the next time.

Jonathan Siegrist  34:00

I know exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I think the reason why is because I they helped me really pinpoint some of my weakness. And I worked hard on those things. And, and, yeah, I mean, it worked really well for me. But for sure, you know, no matter how good a tool is, it you know, can only work for a certain amount of time, and it can only help you improve to a certain extent. And I think I found a great tool by working with them and by by following the program, for the most part. And then yeah, kind of this spring and a little bit also last year, I just saw, again, using mostly the same tool. I had adjusted things a little bit but, um, yeah, I just saw it it wasn't as beneficial as it as it was before, which makes total sense. 

Kris Hampton  34:56

Yeah. 

Jonathan Siegrist  34:56

And I and I came to basically a realization, especially this spring were, you know, I had I felt as though I basically exhausted the capabilities of, at least for the meantime of this tool. And I wanted to try something different. And I think both mentally and physically. I had spent like two years roughly, if I wasn't training my ass off, I was pretty much like at the crag trying to

Kris Hampton  35:27

 Climbing full time

Jonathan Siegrist  35:28

 Trying to, yeah, I tried to send near my limit, you know, and that just got like, that just kind of wore out on me a little bit. I only took probably, I think I took like an eight day break in 2014 and last year, but otherwise, I was either training or climbing like every day other than occasional rest day. So

Kris Hampton  35:47

That's tough on a lot of levels. That's tough. Yeah, emotionally, because I know you're the type of guy who gets emotionally invested in what you're doing. 

Jonathan Siegrist  35:54

For sure yeah. 

Kris Hampton  35:55

And yeah, that's, that's really hard to do.

Jonathan Siegrist  35:58

Yeah, yeah. So and I think it all came to head this spring, um, I trained really hard before I went to try Jumbo Love. And, um, you know, I kind of I think I overtrained a little bit. Um, I don't, I wouldn't say that I developed any injuries, but I definitely like parts of my body weren't working as well as they once had. And then they weren't working as well as they once had. And then trying the hardest route of my life. And then, you know, to further you know, to put a little more heat under my ass, there was some kind of emotional things going on in my life personally, as well. So it was just like, kind of, right before I left for Switzerland, in early May, I just kind of came to the realization of like, Okay, I'm gonna try something different for a little while. And and that's what, you that's what this is all about, right? 

Kris Hampton  36:58

Yeah, for sure. 

Jonathan Siegrist  36:59

Like, you kind of come to the end of the road. And you have to have the foresight to say, I'm going to try something a little bit different. 

Jonathan Siegrist  37:08

Yeah.

Jonathan Siegrist  37:08

Even though it feels risky. Even though I know that I could do a month long hangboarding session, and my fingers would feel incredible by the end, you know, they might not be any stronger than before, but they would feel my strongest again, and whatever. I know, I could follow the same whatever path. I think for me, I just, yeah, I needed something different. And I kind of gave up on the training, went to Switzerland. And that was a perfect opportunity for me to kind of just play and climb. And I was by all means, I was hustling and I was trying to climb hard and whatever. But you know, I had a lot of rainy days, and a lot of time spent alone and stuff, which was like kind of exactly what I feel like I needed. And when I got back, I felt super refreshed and a lot more motivated for my fall goals. And and yeah, for the rest of the year, I'm kind of trying to not train indoors, systematically, like I have the last couple years. I really want to see, you know, take a page from Ethan Pringle, or from Chris Sharma, two guys who are huge inspirations for me, neither of which have really ever done systematic training at all right, um, and see if I can, you know, do this interdisciplinary thing. And, like, see where that can take me.

Kris Hampton  38:26

Yeah. And I think that's what they do that, that makes it work.

Jonathan Siegrist  38:31

 Yeah.

Kris Hampton  38:31

 Is they can, they can switch back and forth between bouldering, sport climbing, going to do bigger stuff, you know, doing shorter, harder stuff, whatever, they switch back and forth, often enough, and are trying hard enough at all of those disciplines that that it works for them.

Jonathan Siegrist  38:51

Yeah. And that's the main takeaway, your last sentence there. Because I was always like, man, Chris Sharma is just like a genetic god. And it's like, so unfair, how good he is at climbing. He never has training, whatever, and then you go to the crag, and you climb with him and he he has this like, incredible balance between like being so tranquillo and also, I mean, when he tries he erupts with energy, you know, and that's exactly what you need. If you're not going to go in the gym, because that's the same attitude I would bring into my training sessions, where it'd be like, during my three minute rest, or whatever, I was, like, bring my whole psych level down, way down. No like overstoker, like, listen to my music, sit down, relax, prepare, and then go to the death when I was like hanging or lifting weights or whatever it was, and then again, come back down. And Chris, like exemplifies that. I can totally understand how he's been climbing his whole life, never really trained, and has gotten to where he is now. Because, yeah, he I mean when he pulls onto the rock and tries, he might only I try a couple times a day, but he's going to the death, you know, right? Not that many people can say that about their efforts.

Kris Hampton  40:07

For sure and that's something I think you can work on.

Jonathan Siegrist  40:10

Totally, totally

Kris Hampton  40:12

There's a lot more to progressing in the sport than just hangboarding or lifting weights, or whatever. There's a huge mental, emotional, psychological component, that I think those guys are really good at. 

Jonathan Siegrist  40:26

Totally

Kris Hampton  40:27

You know, and, and, and you can, you know, Ethan just was very open about his struggles, in the emotional end of climbing. And I think the fact that he struggles with that stuff is part of what makes him so good. Because Because he can be tapped into his emotions, and can do exactly what you just said, you know, he can go out, not having, you know, climbed on something long and hard for a while, and just be so emotionally invested in it that he can, he can perform really well on it, right off the bat.

Jonathan Siegrist  41:05

Totally. Yeah, you know, and, and I have, kind of one of the main things that I struggle with is the sense of like, earning everything. And I, it's really hard for myself, it's really hard for me to allow myself to accept success, if I don't feel like I've prepared for it. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be in the gym for three months before I try any project. But like, like I, you know, if I flew to Spain tomorrow, like randomly, someone was like, oh, here's a ticket to Spain go for a month. I know, like, physically, there's no reason why I couldn't perform. But mentally, I'd be like, Oh, I was not ready. I was not prepared for this. I'm not like, emotionally and mentally prepared to try my hardest, and I don't feel like I've kind of, you know, walked the path towards success. Um, you know, so I don't deserve it, basically. And it would probably be enough to prevent me from succeeding.

Kris Hampton  42:09

 Yeah. 

Jonathan Siegrist  42:10

And that's like, one of the biggest things for me, because it's so strongly ingrained, and in myself, and I think that's, again, to bring it back to what we were speaking about before. I think that's part of the reason why it was so hard for me to let go of my like tendencies towards volume and towards like, all this, all this junk training and like kind of going overboard, because to me, it was like, Oh, dude, I went in the gym so hard last month, like, right, I'm ready to prepare. And I could like, look back in the moment of, you know, standing beneath the project, I could look back to the month I just spent, like getting, you know, getting so pumped. I wanted to barf in the gym every day, and be like, okay, I deserve it. You know. And so that's the hardest. That's one of the hardest things like emotionally that I have to like, try and overcome.

Kris Hampton  42:58

Yeah, and I think we, I think we often mistake what going hard means? I think we, we always equate it with, like, you just said that you have to puke after your session.

Jonathan Siegrist  43:11

 Yeah

Kris Hampton  43:11

Or you feel totally worked. But going hard can just as just as well be what you were talking about with Nick Duttle where or with Chris Sharma where he only ties in twice but he goes amuerte on those attempts.

Jonathan Siegrist  43:27

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  43:28

You know, and I think it's hard. It is going hard to be able to bring yourself down, rest, you know, and and wait for that next attempt. I think that's going just as hard as wrecking yourself. But it's a different kind of hard. It's not as physically hard for as long. It's more mentally, emotionally, psychologically difficult.

Kris Hampton  43:30

Mm hmm. Yeah, totally.

Kris Hampton  43:57

So are you bouldering now? You were up in Lower Chaos yesterday?

Jonathan Siegrist  44:01

Yeah. Um, well

Kris Hampton  44:03

Do you have bouldering goals?

Jonathan Siegrist  44:04

I do. Yeah, I really would like to. I saw so much benefit last year after bouldering, just in like, being snappy and being powerful. And I think I maintained my finger strength really well. I don't know. I don't think it made my fingers stronger than it was that I would have in a training session, but I think it like kept me near a level that I wanted to be at. So I am really ambitious to do another bouldering cycle here. Probably because I think it will improve, you know, chances of me climbing well in the fall but also I think because I just like it now and it's fun. There's like really cool boulders that I want to try

Kris Hampton  44:44

 And having that snappy feeling, I mean, that's a good feeling to have

Jonathan Siegrist  44:48

For sure. Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  44:49

When you climb and you know, you can can explode like that. 

Jonathan Siegrist  44:53

Totally.

Kris Hampton  44:54

 It's such a cool feeling

Jonathan Siegrist  44:55

Totally. And that's what I'm principally lacking. And so it just feels cool. I feel like, like a hero when I'm like, Yeah, I can, I can, like grab that hold fast, you know, it's like fun. Um, but for the meantime, I'm really motivated by this route I'm trying on The Diamond. I've been trying now for a couple weeks. It initially it was mostly trying, like as a rope solo, and just like kind of like just ugly and, and, like physically preparing like, acclimatizing and stuff. And now I'm trying on the sharp end, I just have tried once from the ground. And I'll try again tomorrow, actually. So that's, that's my main kind of motivation for now. And if I can, hopefully get through that. And then there's a few more trade routes I want to do and also kind of mixing some bouldering between now and like the middle or the end of September.

Kris Hampton  45:52

Yeah, that's really cool. I'm, I'm glad you're going that route instead of, you know, constantly pushing against the ceiling of grades. I think it's really important, like we just talked about with Chris and Ethan, to step back. And, and like you like you calling it an interdisciplinary approach to climbing. You know, I think that's, that's probably the way forward for so many people, starting even at the bottom levels and all the way up to the top levels, because you're gonna avoid burnout. 

Jonathan Siegrist  46:26

Totally. 

Kris Hampton  46:26

When you're doing different moves and grabbing different holds, you're gonna avoid injury. Just a really cool way to approach it. And we went when we were up at Lower Chaos yesterday, and I heard you say, you know, I'm going to bed at eight tomorrow night, because I'm climbing on The Diamond on Sunday. Yeah, I just think that's the way to do it.

Jonathan Siegrist  46:43

Yeah

Kris Hampton  46:44

I really think loving all the disciplines is the way to go. And the way to becoming a better climber.

Jonathan Siegrist  46:50

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think, like you said, more than anything, it's all rock climbing, right. But yeah, I mean, man, the difference between a day in Rifle, a day on The Diamond and a day in Lower Chaos is immense. And huge, both like physically mentally, like, you know, the way you interact with your partners, like socially. And so it's refreshing to change.

Kris Hampton  47:15

Yeah, and the more you do it, you know, the easier you can flip that switch. You know, it's if I just boulder for months and months, and then I go try to climb a sport route, it's a shit show.

Jonathan Siegrist  47:27

 Yes. Yeah.

Kris Hampton  47:27

I can't flip that switch, you know. But you know, Nate and I've been on the road for a week now. And we're, we've, I sport climbed the day before I hooked up with him. And since, we've bouldered and trad climbed and, you know, we've climbed on V2 granite, we've climbed at Lincoln Lake, we've climbed at Lower Chaos. So it's been, you know, it's been really fun switching from rock types and grip types.

Jonathan Siegrist  47:53

Totally

Kris Hampton  47:53

 And, you know, I envy that because I grew up in the Red and you know, it's grabbing horizontal sandstone edges forever and ever and ever, for the most part. So

Jonathan Siegrist  48:05

Yeah. And I think, I think one thing that I always really try and communicate to all levels of climbers, but certainly beginners, and certainly like, like intermediate level climbers, is try to, I had a goal, like, early on in my climbing that I wanted to climb 5.14 on all the rock types. And I think that even if that goal is 5.10, or 5.11, or whatever, or even if it's just like, hey, every weekend in September, I'm going to climb on a different rock type. And of course, you know, depending on where you live, that can be quite limiting.

Kris Hampton  48:41

 Right.

Jonathan Siegrist  48:41

 But you know, in Colorado, it's pretty, it's quite possible in, in the West in general, Oregon, Washington, whatever, it's quite possible. I think that that's such an incredible way because the demands of like like sandstone versus granite versus, you know, volcanic tuff versus, you know, limestone, they're like this, they're so different. And the hold types are different the way it's gonna, like, you know, the way it's gonna stretch your fingers and your arms and whatever. And that I always suggest that to people is like an awesome kind of way to improve. You know, I think that if, you know, I think that people could, could jump around between between rock types. And then furthermore, bouldering, sport climbing, trad climbing, whatever, if you're into that, like, man, that's gonna, you're gonna your skill set is going to be enormous.

Kris Hampton  49:34

Yeah, I think that's the big takeaway here is, you know, follow this sort of, inter disciplinary approach that you're advocating, you know, have have big goals in the different disciplines, but constantly switch it up, and to take a backseat and learn from people. 

Jonathan Siegrist  49:55

Yeah, totally.

Kris Hampton  49:56

 I definitely think that's the big takeaway here. 

Jonathan Siegrist  49:59

Yeah. 

Kris Hampton  50:00

So, man, thanks for sitting down with me.

Jonathan Siegrist  50:02

 Yeah, man

Kris Hampton  50:02

For taking some time out.

Jonathan Siegrist  50:03

 Yeah, totally. 

Kris Hampton  50:04

Good luck on The Diamond tomorrow. 

Jonathan Siegrist  50:05

Thank you. Yeah, hopefully it happens.

Kris Hampton  50:09

 All right. I'll see you soon, man. 

Jonathan Siegrist  50:11

Thanks, man. Take care.

Kris Hampton  50:17

You know, it takes a lot of courage to make changes, particularly in the public eye. And, you know, J Star's is one of the best sport climbers in the country and is definitely in the public eye. A lot of people look to him for what he's doing. So now to make those changes and put them out there, I think that's that's big of him. And I really appreciate his insight and this conversation. You know, he also shares his failures. He recently spent eight weeks on Pachamama a 15a in Spain, only to walk away without a send, his longest, longest project and biggest goal without completion. And you can go read his blog, which is at jstarinorbit.com, one of the few climbers that keeps a blog anymore, and his is really excellent. He's a really great writer, always has great photos, and really let you into his process. So definitely go check out jstarinorbit and read his his accounts of Pachamama and you know what that felt like. Also, you know, in this in this conversation with J Star, he mentioned that he's headed out to The Diamond the day after we talked and, and he sent the The Direct Dunn-Westbay. And his account of that send is one of the, one of the best pieces of writing about, you know, how it felt to do something that big and that important to him. And he did it with his dad. And I really think you guys should go read that. I will link to it on the post on our website, powercompanyclimbing.com. You can go check that out and read his account. And, you know, like I told you guys before we're headed to So iLL, we're going to be there for a week's worth of workshops. If you're interested in any private sessions, hit us up. We're also doing our first live podcast there. So if you're in the St. Louis area, please come through. It's going to be a lot of fun. Also, Nate's got some openings. If you're interested in a custom plan with Nate, definitely touch base with me through the website. And as always, you know, share us on your social medias. You know, you can find us on the Facebook, the Pinterest, the Instagrams. You can share us on Twitter, too. You won't find us on Twitter, because we don't tweet we scream like eagles.